Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

It is not only loans, which were more recent.

For decades, Greece was gifted with vast amounts of EU money:

Table 1 below shows the net assistance Greece received annually over the period 1981-2010 as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). From these figures it turns out that the assistance averaged 2.7 percent of GDP per annum, a very generous percentage by any comparison.

Table 1: Net1 inflows of financial aid from the European Union as a percentage of GDP

1981 0,003 1991 0,046 2001 0,031
1982 0,012 1992 0,039 2002 0,027
1983 0,016 1993 0,044 2003 0,020
1984 0,016 1994 0,041 2004 0,022
1985 0,017 1995 0,035 2005 0,016
1986 0,024 1996 0,048 2006 0,021
1987 0,029 1997 0,039 2007 0,018
1988 0,025 1998 0,039 2008 0,020
1989 0,029 1999 0,043 2009 0,009
1990 0,032 2000 0,043 2010 0,013

www.aueb.gr/conferences/Crete2013/papers/Bitros.docx

[Paphitis]

Yes, 75% of over-65's voted 'Leave' and 75% of under-25's voted 'Remain'. It is not hard to see that the majority sentiment is going to shift as nature takes its toll. A lot depends on whether the EU can get out of the mess it is currently in and rediscover its sense of purpose.

As voters get older, they also get wiser or more conservative and parochial.

the younger ones start seeing all that is wrong with the EU.

I am not so much opposed to the EU as i am opposed to the rubbish bureaucracy and meddling from Brussels, all the legislating and also the Eurozone and EURO.

That EURO has bought misery and poverty to a lot of people.

Unless there is a complete overhaul to accommodate countries like Greece which isn't a Germany, then it is a currency I can't support.

give me the beautiful Drachma any day.

We get the mesage. You want the UK to leave the EU because of the wrongs you perceive the EU to have done to Greece, even though it has poured vast amounts of money into that bottomless pit over the decades. Never mind looking at whether anything is wrong in the country itself that might be the cause of some of its problems when there is an easy scapegoat waiting, eh? The people of Romania were recently on the streets in huge numbers and successfully stopped the government there from watering down strict new anti-corruption measures. This for sure will give Romania a boost on the road to development and I wouldn't be surprised if it starts overtaking Greece before long. Never mind. Let's not inquire whether Greece is held back because it is mired in nepotism and corruption when there's an easy scapegoat waiting.

That money is laced with poison Tim. It's laced with a VX nerve Agent and it is killing people.

Greece needs reform more than anything else, and whilst I acknowledge that the ECB has helped Greece reform itself to some extent, the fundamentals I perceive to be wrong. The people are being lashed with huge Austerity, which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

Now Greece is trapped in unmanageable debt for at least 2 generations.

What is also concerning is the fact that there is another wave of Greek migrants into Australia. they are popping up everywhere, mostly young people in their 20s or 30s. Really nice people too just coming and wanting to work. These are people that have abandoned Greece forever and speaking to them, they do not see any positive or hope. Real shame. Greece is being raped big time.

the whole Eurozone/EURO/ECB pack of cards isn't something that will favour smaller countries. Britain had the right idea by keeping the Sterling. they were always in full control of their economy but Greece and Cyprus ARE NOT.

I thought his migration ended in the 70s but it just started again. I presume the same thing is occurring in America and Canada as well.

[Paphitis]

You often hear " The people of Britain voted to leave the EU"
Surely the correct statement should be that a tiny minority of British people voted to leave
After all 17 million out out 65 million is not exactly THE PEOPLE.
I know this is how democracy works. But the statement is wrong that the British people voted to leave.
Take out ...geriatrics, little Englanders know what i mean mate sort of ting like, got ur country back mate ,
I hope you know what I mean
By the way, our NHS is now ....richer by 350 million bolloucks a week !! And we not dictated by understanding elected Europeans instead we are dictated to by ...unfortunately elected fucking traffic wardens

But they did vote to leave. It's an absurdity to claim that those who didn't vote wanted to stay, then count them as such. Some people can't be bothered to put a cross in a box around the corner. Such is the way in any national poll (it happens in here, too ). You can't assume that all those who didn't vote regard yourself or Paphitis as the largest crap posters and count them in. That's not how it works.

I must protest at the stigma sternly.

I don't like being lumped in with Miltiades. It is an awful embarrassment for me and I don't say that to be insulting to the other party. I honestly feel very embarrassed.

Milti got what he deserved because he opened the thread. My 5 voters always vote against me and even make proclamations as such and 2 of them actually call me a "Zionist Dog" and other things - so the votes in my case are PERSONAL. At least 3 to 4 of them were PERSONAL in nature.

So no more character assassination assertions about me please because I won't tolerate it.

For far too long I have been targeted with polls and personal threads about things I supposedly said. Not on!

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

I didn't ask for your input.

I do not agree with you on anything and am not looking at this anywhere near with the same perspective as you.

Now buzz off!

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

I didn't ask for your input.

I do not agree with you on anything and am not looking at this anywhere near with the same perspective as you.

Now buzz off!

I didn't ask for yours and it was my OP in the first place, but I am not childish like you, I post you reply ...... do I complain? What did you say about not insulting other forum members and learning to respect others? You think this an adult response. I can clearly see you don't '.....look at this anywhere near with the same perspective as (me)'................if you did, you wouldn't get it all wrong,

Grow up an act like an adult.

[Pyrpolizer]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

I don't think this prediction is correct.
Cuts on wages are so huge that is hard for me to believe that the average value of work produced by the average Greek is about 600 Euros per month, which is what they get paid today. It's at least 2 times as much.
From that alone the Greek working people get stolen 2 billion per month.
Not hard to imagine how long should this stealing continue for Greece to get back on it's own feet.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

I don't think this prediction is correct.
Cuts on wages are so huge that is hard for me to believe that the average value of work produced by the average Greek is about 600 Euros per month, which is what they get paid today. It's at least 2 times as much.
From that alone the Greek working people get stolen 2 billion per month.
Not hard to imagine how long should this stealing continue for Greece to get back on it's own feet.

I don't really understand what you are saying?

Any additional money they want can only be obtained from the ECB. Greece cannot produce its own money .... say, like the UK. The ECB has been using QE to buy up assets ....... they buy your collateral and pay the banks some of the debt and their interest. The rest they write off. In effect they are buying the debt, then they sell the collateral to investors .... at a profit, So the money goes to the banks and the assets are sold off most often to foreigners.

The Greek economy sees very little of this money, maybe only 2-3% if they are lucky.

[Pyrpolizer]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

I don't think this prediction is correct.
Cuts on wages are so huge that is hard for me to believe that the average value of work produced by the average Greek is about 600 Euros per month, which is what they get paid today. It's at least 2 times as much.
From that alone the Greek working people get stolen 2 billion per month.
Not hard to imagine how long should this stealing continue for Greece to get back on it's own feet.

I don't really understand what you are saying?

Any additional money they want can only be obtained from the ECB. Greece cannot produce its own money .... say, like the UK. The ECB has been using QE to buy up assets ....... they buy your collateral and pay the banks some of the debt and their interest. The rest they write off. In effect they are buying the debt, then they sell the collateral to investors .... at a profit, So the money goes to the banks and the assets are sold off most often to foreigners.

The Greek economy sees very little of this money, maybe only 2-3% if they are lucky.

Think of it this way: I have a company which is totally bankrupt, it actually owes as much as half the 10 year salaries of my 100 employees.
If I could enforce Stalinist type measures on my employees cutting their salaries down to half, then I would pay off all my debts in 10 years.
That's what austerity does in Greece.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

........which in my opinion didn't have to be so draconian if they allowed Greece to print and Quantitatively Ease.

That is why they are in so much trouble ......... Greece can’t do that as it does not have a sovereign currency or it’s own independent Central Bank, it has only the ECB. The Greeks can print a limited amount of Euro in specific value notes but nowhere near enough to solve the problem. All they can do is borrow more until they have no assets left for the Banks to seize. Then I assume they are just declared bankrupt ..... and thrown out of the Euro.

I didn't ask for your input.

I do not agree with you on anything and am not looking at this anywhere near with the same perspective as you.

Now buzz off!

I didn't ask for yours and it was my OP in the first place, but I am not childish like you, I post you reply ...... do I complain? What did you say about not insulting other forum members and learning to respect others? You think this an adult response. I can clearly see you don't '.....look at this anywhere near with the same perspective as (me)'................if you did, you wouldn't get it all wrong,

Grow up an act like an adult.

I wasn't talking to you AND I am not wanting the EU to be destroyed or the destruction of the Global Financial Markets and Banking System.