Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

We had numerous discussions in the past where STUD showed his support of the 1960 Constitution and denigrated Makarios for wanting to modify it. I'm not sure whether he was just trying to curry favour with erolz66, though, as they were often posting in alliance.

However, since I quoted some of the declassified information that showed that British officials were discussing repatriation of TCs to Turkey, that peace would only have come to Cyprus if Britain had allowed enosis and that Britain influenced Makarios to try to make the Constitution more democratic (they realised the unfairness and seemed to regret it just a few years later), I'm hoping STUD may have become more sensible. But I notice he is still prevaricating and not actually denouncing the 1960 Constitution as unfair to GCs and incompatible with democracy.

His sentence: " .... and which does not have the SBA, including Aliance with Europe, including Greece" is either badly worded or he's saying he doesn't want Cyprus to have an " .... Aliance with Europe, including Greece". Very confusing or downright ridiculous.

Let me get this straight: Did you really expect STUD (who as understand is a British Expat living in Cyprus) to denounce the 1960 constitution when we the GCs never denounced it, while in fact we entered the EU with THAT?

GIG do you know that until today we carry the flag of the RoC praise it as a fully democratic country, member of the EU and the UN, boast around ho, ho, ho we are the Great RoC, while at the same time our constitution, the basis of all our law, is actually the 1960 constitution?

In my understanding you expected STUD to more or less declare the RoC (the one based on the 1960 constitution) Dead and Buried, and just call our today's governing structure "Greek Cypriot Administration" like Turkey does. Would that really satisfy you???

Imo STUD's reply was the best and the most pleasing reply he could ever give.Sorry.

[GreekIslandGirl]

... to denounce the 1960 constitution when we the GCs never denounced it, while in fact we entered the EU with THAT?

You must be the only GC who keeps alive the 1960 Constitution as it was given to us, under duress ...

Cyprus constitution imposed by guarantor powers encouraged separation, Parliament President said

FAMAGUSTA GAZETTE CYPRUS•Sunday, 07 May, 2017
President of the Parliament Demetris Syllouris has said that the Cypriot Constitution, imposed by the Guarantor powers, instead of bringing the two societies together, it encouraged their separation.

Addressing an International Conference on "Imposed Constitutions - Aspects of Imposed Constitutionalism”, organised in Nicosia, Syllouris noted that "if there was not for the bi-communal element in the Constitution of Cyprus which, I would say we had accepted under ‘duress’, it would still have been a good Constitution”.

In his speech, the President of the Cypriot Parliament explained that there are two arguments as to whether the Cypriot Constitution was imposed or not.

The first argument, he said, is that, since the Cyprus Constitution was signed by all parties, it was not imposed to the Cypriot people.

Practically, the decision for changing the scope from enosis with Greece to the Independence of the island was directed by the Greek-Cypriot leadership, and despite the presence of the British power- which allowed for a Turkish say-, it can again be argued that the formation of the Constitution was a Cypriot decision, he said.

The second argument, according to Syllouris, suggests that the change of the direction from enosis with Greece to Cyprus independence and the subsequent discussions for the formation of the Constitution on this basis, was not under the free will of the people of Cyprus.

"Despite the political responsibility of the Greek Cypriot leadership for changing the scope of the struggle, it can be argued that this decision was taken under pressure, firstly in the presence of 30.000 British troops and the continuous executions of Greek Cypriot fighters, and secondly, under the threat of the direct involvement of Turkey. Thus, the constitution was imposed by the Guarantors and goes against the principle of self-determination” Syllouris said.

"The armed reaction of Turkish Cypriots in 1963, (led by Turkey’s strategic objectives) following the suggestion of the 1st President of Cyprus to proceed with thirteen Amendments on the Constitution which aimed to resolve constitutional deadlocks, backs up the argument that not only the Cypriot Constitution was imposed, but there was not even ground for civilised and democratic discussion for improvement. I will not go into detail on whether the thirteen Amendments were rightly proposed or not, but democracy presupposes that decisions should be taken through discussions and not through violence” the President of the House noted.

Syllouris explained that the main parameter imposed on the Constitution was its bi-communal character which allowed for the co-existence of Greek and Turkish Cypriots. "This particularity in the structure of the Constitution was one of the reasons for the upheavals which soon after took place in Cyprus. In essence, instead of bringing the two societies together, the Constitution encouraged their separation” he said, adding that "apart from the bicommunal character, the Cypriot Constitution does not allow any amendment of the basic Articles that have been incorporated from the Zurich Agreement dated 11th February, 1959”.

"In my opinion, if there was not for the bi-communal element in the Constitution of Cyprus which, I would say we had accepted under ‘duress’, it would still have been a good Constitution” said Syllouris. For example, he noted, "the provisions in Part Four of the Constitution for the House of Representatives of the Republic of Cyprus, are from my experience in Cyprus politics, an exemplary model defining the power and functioning of a Parliament”.
The protection of a state’s principles should be our first and foremost priority, he stressed and underlined that in this crucial period for the Cypriot problem, a future solution should respect the principles and rights of the people as reflected in the Constitution, and the European Acquis Communautaire and the European Principles.

http://famagusta-gazette.com/cyprus-con ... 150-69.htm

Why does it matter that we went into the EU with baggage? The baggage is the reason we went in. Now we are in, the imposed divisive, undemocratic elements of the Constitution are null and void and when Turkey is removed, Makarios' democratization process will be complete.

So, Pyro, you are effectively telling us to ignore STUD as he can do no more than spout the old, imperialist party line!

[supporttheunderdog]

Have I spouted the imperialist party line ?

Another of your vicious personal delusions....

[Robin Hood]

As you were talking about Greece ............

Why it would be in the best interests of Greece and the Greek people to dump the Euro and the EU.

When the TROIKA have recovered all the loans back from the Greeks by seizing their public assets and left the country devastated, the austerity will have destroyed the country and the Banks will start looking for another EU country to bring down ........ it could be Cyprus or maybe an even bigger fish this time like Italy or Spain.

This article explains why Greece will eventually leave both the Eurozone and the EU ...... when they are broke and have lost all their publicly owned assets to the French and German Banks.

IMF to Greece: Sorry We’ll Destroy You

The European Commission announced on May 2, that an agreement on Greek pension and income tax reforms would pave the way for further discussions on debt release for Greece. The European Commission described this as good news for Greece. The Greek government described the situation in similar terms. However, little attention has been given as to how the wider Greek population are experiencing the consequences of the policies of the Troika. On May Day thousands of Greeks marked International Workers Day with anti-austerity protests. One of the protester’s a 32-year-old lawyer perhaps summed the mood, the best when he said …

“The current Greek government, like all the ones before it, have implemented measures that has only one goal, the crushing of the workers, the working class and everyone who works themselves to the bone. We are fighting for the survival of the poorest who need help the most.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47023.htm

This article explains how the system works that will eventually bring Greece to its knees. This relates to the UK but the principal is the same. The one advantage the UK has is that, unlike the Greeks (at the moment), the UK has their own sovereign currency. It will explain things even more and in an understandable fashion if you read the Bank of England link ‘Money creation in the modern economy’. The link on how 'Quantitative Easing for People' works, is informative and also worth reading.

Banks are basically an accounting system ..... they have ASSETS on one side and LIABILITIES on the other ......... but their assets are just debt and their liabilities are their depositors money and that of the shareholders. So, effectively the banks have no tangible assets to seize, therefore Depositors are regarded as ‘unsecured creditors’ and when things go wrong, the share holders get paid out before the account holders. The banks reliance on debt as assets only works until their is a crash ...... like 2008, and the next one will be even bigger. If the derivatives market explodes the debts involved are the equivalent of twenty times the Worlds GDP!!!!

Keen on UK economics .............

https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/the-ten-graphs-which-show-how-britain-became-a-wholly-owned-subsiduary-of-the-city-of-london-and-what-we-can-do-about-it/

[repulsewarrior]

...interesting, thanks RH.

[supporttheunderdog]

As usual you misrepresent my position on Greece, but that is what you are mostly good at, lies amd misrepresentstion, which you then accuse others of. One big difference between us is that I do not look through rose tinted blinkers at Greece. What is happening in Greece with the vicious Austerity is a tragedy for the ordinary Greek, and the possibility of Grexit remains unless and until there is serious debt relief, not rollied over borrowing as we have now.


Whether Greece's allies in the EU will agree that is a big question.

Yes i belvieve in a unified republic that strives for equality and democracy, for all Cypriots, including Turkish speaking Cypriots, and which does not have the SBA, including Aliance with Europe, including Greece.

Crystal clear.
I am wondering how GIG thought you were supporting something else.
Any clue, any link?
GIG could you help?

We had numerous discussions in the past where STUD showed his support of the 1960 Constitution and denigrated Makarios for wanting to modify it. I'm not sure whether he was just trying to curry favour with erolz66, though, as they were often posting in alliance.

However, since I quoted some of the declassified information that showed that British officials were discussing repatriation of TCs to Turkey, that peace would only have come to Cyprus if Britain had allowed enosis and that Britain influenced Makarios to try to make the Constitution more democratic (they realised the unfairness and seemed to regret it just a few years later), I'm hoping STUD may have become more sensible. But I notice he is still prevaricating and not actually denouncing the 1960 Constitution as unfair to GCs and incompatible with democracy.

His sentence: " .... and which does not have the SBA, including Aliance with Europe, including Greece" is either badly worded or he's saying he doesn't want Cyprus to have an " .... Aliance with Europe, including Greece". Very confusing or downright ridiculous.

e

Ah, Little Star, some criticism from you I can accept, I will quite happily agree with the comment that the sentence was badly worded . I am very happy for Cyprus to have an alliance with Europe, including Greece, through Eg EU membership.

I can otherwise assure you that while Erolz and I may share similar views (I would not be so presumptuous to say "great minds think alike" ) we have reached them separately, and post without consultation. I do not btw post here to curry favour with anyone. Do you?

That does however show a fundamental misunderstanding of me. You do not understand how I think.

The 1960 Constitution was indeed a mess but that arose out of the fact that Big Mak and EOKA blew it in their campaign to rid Cyprus of one foreign power to replace it with another, since I think that The GC leadership did not take big enough account of the bigger picture, in seeking their objectives, as I think if they had, they might have played it diffrently, and ended up in a situation where there was a one man one vote system with no minority status veto for the Turkish Speaking Cypriots, and after acheiving independence without the millstone of the 1959 agrrements and 1960 constitution, could have run a plebicite on Enosis. That means looking back to the 1940's and the rejected offer of a limited power assembly, but it would have been very much a case of "Slowly, Slowly, my Dear".

Whether or not Turkey would have accepted that situation is a differnt matter, and I also remain very strongly of the view that Enosis would have been a social and economic disaster for Cyprus, as one would not merely have people leaving the villages for the cities for work outside of what is available locally, as we see today, but many would likewise have left the Island. It woukd be a case of places like Nicosia, Limassol, Famagusta and Paphos having to compete not just with each other for a share of Cyprus rescources, e.g for things like schools and hospitals, but the rest of Greece. Rather the taxes paid by Cypriots would be taken and spent elsewhere.

I suspect Nicosia would have become a poor provincial town as many of the jobs that Make Nicosia what is, would not exist. The majority of the employment would be in agriculture and tourism, neither big payers.

You might quite like that idea...as it means I would not have been headhunted by a Cypriot company to come here.

[repulsewarrior]

We had numerous discussions in the past where STUD showed his support of the 1960 Constitution and denigrated Makarios for wanting to modify it. I'm not sure whether he was just trying to curry favour with erolz66, though, as they were often posting in alliance.

However, since I quoted some of the declassified information that showed that British officials were discussing repatriation of TCs to Turkey, that peace would only have come to Cyprus if Britain had allowed enosis and that Britain influenced Makarios to try to make the Constitution more democratic (they realised the unfairness and seemed to regret it just a few years later), I'm hoping STUD may have become more sensible. But I notice he is still prevaricating and not actually denouncing the 1960 Constitution as unfair to GCs and incompatible with democracy.

His sentence: " .... and which does not have the SBA, including Aliance with Europe, including Greece" is either badly worded or he's saying he doesn't want Cyprus to have an " .... Aliance with Europe, including Greece". Very confusing or downright ridiculous.

Let me get this straight: Did you really expect STUD (who as understand is a British Expat living in Cyprus) to denounce the 1960 constitution when we the GCs never denounced it, while in fact we entered the EU with THAT?

GIG do you know that until today we carry the flag of the RoC praise it as a fully democratic country, member of the EU and the UN, boast around ho, ho, ho we are the Great RoC, while at the same time our constitution, the basis of all our law, is actually the 1960 constitution?

In my understanding you expected STUD to more or less declare the RoC (the one based on the 1960 constitution) Dead and Buried, and just call our today's governing structure "Greek Cypriot Administration" like Turkey does. Would that really satisfy you???

Imo STUD's reply was the best and the most pleasing reply he could ever give.Sorry.

...if there was a "like" button, i would have pressed it.

[repulsewarrior]

It's reform, the Constitution, is necessary. And there is no getting around that if Cyprus is to continue to exist.

If you read it it is not hard to understand. What is being discussed in effect are the issues relating to the Communal Chambers, never effective because of the boycott of it by the "Greeks".

So many years i have wanted to say that. For all the victims, (because they were not "Greek", and not "Turkish") i beg their forgiveness for those of us who as Greeks thought "Greek" was just fine, in affect giving up the Agenda to "them", as though they were our neighbours, just across the yard. Cyprus is not "Greek", never was, and what it was, was what Greek was, before a mythic reality was created in Greece, called modern Greece. Like Turkey, they are not organic, what they were was turned under the soil, literally. But, not yet, not yet in Cyprus at least, it is not yet "Greek", it is not yet "Turkish", despite all the other attempts otherwise Cypriots still exist, until only recently for a little while Free from subjugation.

There is the chance, that in Cyprus, because the population is small and it is an island after-all, that such an identity called Cypriot will evolve to be primordial to its dwellers again, that the Flag of Cyprus will have a greater relevance as a symbol representing a State, divided they were, and as Individuals, this State, above the Nations they choose to sustain, that we are willing to defend as Citizens without distinctions or discriminations, but on merit, the Universal Principals on which their unity is based. And, being Bicommunal, as Persons, as Nations if you will, beside the Freedom we have as Individuals, within this State Liberty is demonstrated through the distinct identities as a People we can sustain.

There is a chance that Turkey will realise the full potential of a solution to the Problem, because as an issue it is not limited to Cyprus; a divided Cyprus, surely brings the same in Turkey.

(...a "perfect" solution, surely solves a lot of Problems)

Cypriots are and were close to their land. As stewards they take pride in making living things grow. This is what counts; that the same highly complex and socialised culture that flourished, advances again; for Cyprus. English i expect will dwarf all other languages in Cyprus regardless, it is ridiculous that Cypriots do not appreciate the diversity of their ethnography, what English and Urban Living are doing to the chances of any of it existing in the future, and in an effort to preserve what they can, work together toward that end. In any case Cypriots do work together, it is the "Greeks" and the "Turks" who do otherwise. Cypriots as Cypriots must take back the identity that's theirs.

Indeed who can remember Kucuk, dwarfed by the presence of Denktash. And who remembers the conflict between them. What of Makarios, how many times the attempts on his life? "Greek", "Turk", not much different politically both having failed to secure nothing more than their corruption and their contempt, both having betrayed the notion of a Family of Man, and themselves, they the "others" from my view as a Cypriot.

tsuk my friend where are you?