Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

cypezokyli mate, (if I can call you that?), do not be too disheartened by this debate. You dream of a single united Cyprus. I dream of a world without borders. Where would we be without dreams? But sometimes we can only take small steps towards that. I don't think we should say no to this because it falls short of where we want to be. As long as we are moving forward in right direction (and sometimes we end up on a bit of detour, such is life, but everything happens for a reason...).

I have only been writing on this forum for a short while, but already have been warmed to the various characters, their passionate rants, etc. I've made several direct contacts with GCs I've met through the Forum, which could lead to becoming social aquaintences, then new friends, business partners,...This is the way life normally evolves - naturally, slowly. We all checking each other out, learning about each other, vibing with each other.

ofcource u can call me mate

there are two schools of thought... one is step-by-step.
the other is, there is nothing more permanent than the temporal.
u refer to to the right direction. is division the right direction for a world without borders? or for a cyprus without borders?
there are step-by-step processes that could be taken for unifying the island...but you see, you are not giving me such proposals

we ve got ideas plugged into our heads my dear rude gal, by which we can even view the whole world different, but our stuborness when it comes to our own problem, proves the emptyness in our "progressiveness".
most of these arguments start with : we tried this before, and it failed..it is obvious we can not live together...and you are talking to me about a world without borders and dreams? there s song in greek that sais : "it worths my friend to exist for a dream, even if the end its fire will burn you" ... who knows, one day i ll grow up. the problem is that growing up implicitly assumes - no dreams.


i know that germany is a whole different situation than us. do you know how many serious people say that the reunification should have happened on a step-by-step process ? people are now saying it happened too fast. the truth is, that if it didnt happen the way it did, it would never had happened. a rational thinker would have never argued to reunify. thats the problem we also have here. we calculate everything on legal terms, and rational thinking, the kind of thinking that can work in math or physics, but it does not work like that with people. thats what i believe.

you know this republic of paphos thing ..started as a joke...
now the more i think about it, the more i believe : why the hell not?
step -by-step, as all of you people say. i mean , think about it. we create a third state of people who voluntarily live together. and the people who want most propably they will manage. is just an intermidiate step, in the step-by-step process. its a step that will show all the rest that it is possible. what better step can you propose ?
and i honestly cannot understand why it disturbs people who want to draw lines. i mean its just a line more. what difference would it make? i am just using the same arguments as all of you. you just split people on ethnik identities and i split the on beliefs. want to live together or not. its not funny anymore rudy.. if all of you people decide to brake the island in pieces, then i also want my piece. its rational all the way

Can't rush a good thing! Laughing So patience bro, if our dialogue is anthing to go by, we all moving in one direction - closer together!

u remind me of an old experience i had. "give me space to come back". take a wild guess, if the space was used to come back or to leave for good . take your wildest guess rude gal. i cannot be convinced that moving apart is the direction to come closer together.
i think have to stop bc i am just becoming emotional here, and i am supposed to be using political arguments...
cypezokyli

[Rude Gal]

Cypezokyli, so much said in true love! You are right about funny way to go about a borderless world by accepting the partition in Cyprus. There is a great Christian prayer that includes the line "God give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change".

My dear bro, neither you or I put the wall there. And with the best will in the world, neither you and I (& all the other One World One Nation posse) can undo it right now. 2 states exist, let's learn to accept this realisty first, then look to ways of moving closer together and removing all borders/barriers. Needs lots of time and TLC to achieve. We got bruises all over!

I don't know about Germany. I know there economy is buggered and their is alot of resentment. Everyone's world has been turned upside down and everyone thinks they are still losing: East - not enough investment to improve quality of life; West - too much taxation/high unemployment...

Maybe you are right about if didn't happen, may have never. But they got a few major positive differences in their favour though; they never inflicted pain on each other, they speak the same language, very few Germans on either side (if any) wanted two sides to stay apart, no ethnic power struggles, ra ra ra. We have these extra stresses so makes our borderless island much more complex/difficult to realise in one hit.

In previous threads, I have made some suggestions about coperation so we can create a culture of togetherness. here are a few:

1. A Truth Commission (like South Africa) - I have seen others advocating this on the Forum

2. Create the Jewish Equivalent of the Avenue of the Righteous, to pay tribute to people that saved us from worse catastrophe. I would start with the old Greek Cypriot that saved my mum's life when she was 15 (EOKA bomb exploded killing UK troops and he dived on her to stop shrapnel). Also GC villagers in my grandparents' village who saved them from advancing Greek army who threatened them for "harbouring undeseriables" when they found my uncle's police uniform in their house. When we can start respecting our mutual hereos, we can start to see the goodness in one another.

3. Joint projects/NGOs that reflect our growing social consciousness about the planet and its various species. Perhaps by joining forces against climate change and the War in Iraq (for example), we can learn some lessons for solving our own problems.

4. Either joint Cyprus sports teams or we have separate sports associations that come together for islandwide sports tournaments. My dad tells me of the great passion counter football matches used to create when he was young, and I know Cetinkaya FC still commands a lot of respect in the South.

5. Lots and lots of joint educational and cultural projects. The universities should do joint research together, and we should dig into our creativity (FYI creativity is the key to innovative, entrepreneurial and tolerant socities) to find fun/intelligent/innovative ways to come together.

And I'm sure there's plenty more...Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither are our dreams.

We cannot solve it all, so let's find areas of non-conflict that we can all come together and spread the love.

Your fears are like a parent letting go of their kid as they grow up into an adult. Will he become so independent that he stays away from the family for good? Well if the family is a warm, happy place that offers lots of love and support, why would he stay out of it?

Keep the faith!

[cypezokyli]

thats the things i like to hear fromyou rude gal mou. (mou is my in greek...if i may )

you have taken hope and given it back to me in just a couple of hours. did i have to get all that emotional to give me these beautiful proposals?

but i would do that again, if i have to.

i knew they were somewhere inside there. thanks for sharing them.
now i can go to bed and dream.

iyi geceler

[Kifeas]

1. I think whether it's population or land ownership, ratios need to be something that is based on accurate information. I think there are some disputes over both figures. But once resolved, then whichever we use will be a fair solution to determine each territory's size.

Excuse me Rude Gal but the figures I gave you are perfectly accurate and I am not aware of any disputes whatsoever. So far no ones has ever denied that the TCs constitute the 18% of the population, nor the Land registry figures on property ownership which the ECHR and the UN accept as the only accurate basis.

Do you have any information and /or references on this issue? I would like to hear about them.

2. If TCs have own recognised State, then they should be forced to choose which nationality they hold and I believe very will will retain their RoC passports/citizenship. Why should they? Those TC citizens who choose to, can already live in RoC (I believe?). The fact that few have made the shift over since the borders went down shows there is a reluctance, so I don't believe these numbers affect 1. But if it did, yes you take all these factors into account.

Forced by whom? No one can force an EU citizen to abandon his nationality /citizenship status in favour of any political choices that the TC leadership and /or the majority of the TC community would like to take. As to how many TCs have citizenship of the RoC, all of them are holders of such citizenship, whether they have obtained passports or not. Actually more than 50% of TCs have obtained a passport or an I.D. card from the RoC after the Turkey opened the gates in 2003.

[cypezokyli]

you could have saved that post kifeas.
you could have saved it and gain the trust of a tc.

[Kifeas]

you could have saved that post kifeas.
you could have saved it and gain the trust of a tc.

What does my post have to do with gaining the trust of anyone? Why whatever I said about constitutes a reason for someone not to trust me?

I am sorry cypezokyli but, can you express your views without half words and enigmas!

[Rude Gal]

you could have saved that post kifeas.
you could have saved it and gain the trust of a tc.

Bro, no worries, my trust don't waver so easily!

[Rude Gal]

Excuse me Rude Gal but the figures I gave you are perfectly accurate and I am not aware of any disputes whatsoever. So far no ones has ever denied that the TCs constitute the 18% of the population, nor the Land registry figures on property ownership which the ECHR and the UN accept as the only accurate basis.

Do you have any information and /or references on this issue? I would like to hear about them.

No one can force an EU citizen to abandon his nationality /citizenship status in favour of any political choices that the TC leadership and /or the majority of the TC community would like to take. As to how many TCs have citizenship of the RoC, all of them are holders of such citizenship, whether they have obtained passports or not. Actually more than 50% of TCs have obtained a passport or an I.D. card from the RoC after the Turkey opened the gates in 2003.

Kifeas, while I'm no expert on this issue, but I am disputing accuracy of figs (and I'm sure other TCs would) based on points below:

There is going to be a census in North Cyprus early 2006, the population figs and breakdowns will be available then, so we can then determine TC pop. based on this latest, most accurate figures.

As for land, I also think we would have some disputes over amounts. Firstly, as you may/may not know, Muslims have something called "evkaf" land that people leave in their inheritance to the common good of the (muslim) people. My dad's school in Limassol was on such land and his grandfather left considerable amount to Muslims as evkaf. Does his land get included in TC amounts now? My dad says much evkaf land was seized by RoC after 1963.

If evkaf is TC land, could mean Turkish Cypriots own alot more than 18%. I just don't know enough on this, but sure there are others who do...

Then there's the evidence of a few GCs who have fiddled some land registry deeds for their own fraudulent benefit. May not be much, but who knows how much more of this has happened?

Finally, I met the owners of Celebrity Hotel in Lapta. I know that they were accused of sitting on GC property yet they have deeds proving ownership from 1971. This is just one of many such conflicts.

I am not in a position to know who has what, but like the missing persons issue, we need a joint commission to determine land ownership, based on common principles. I will respect the outcome of that as proof of who owns what, but not a system managed purely by one administration on the island (and EU, UN just too removed to know truth. They can sit on joint commission though).

We are not so far away from these confirmations, so let's not quibble over figures. Let's agree on the principles of 2 state scenario (which I think we have? and yes, I know this is not a solution you would advocate Kifeas) and wait for the evidence.

Re: citizenship, yes in principle all TCs are citizens of the RoC. But if 2 States solution occurred, many may rescind RoC citizenship (but through free will, not force).

I don't know what rules apply for holding multiple citizenship, but after solution and if 2 States, if you live in South, you can't also expect to be a citizen of North, and vice versa (like any other EU member state - just cos you live/work somewhere doesn't mean you are automatically its citizen. But you will be a citizen of at least one State).

Over & out- Rudey off to check her angels. It ain't easy being an independent lady

[Simon]

Could it therefore be accepted by most that this solution could be the step forward in achieving our ultimate goal?

[Piratis]

you could have saved that post kifeas.
you could have saved it and gain the trust of a tc.

Gain the trust of a TC by avoiding saying his opinion?

What I demand from TCs is respect. The respect that they are obligated to show to me and which I show to them. Insisting on our human rights violations is the most disrespectful thing that exists, and no true trust can be build on this basis. (at least not with any self respecting human being. Maybe with people with slave mentality only)