Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

Those are appalling figures but it's time some ideas were laid to rest. Life is truly difficult for over 90% of people in Europe (and deadly for the same number in other regions).

A friend of mine, little younger than me, highly educated, went back to work when her kids turned into teens. She was offered a standard UK zero hours contract (joke to call it so) for what looked like a good amount (about 15 UK sterling per hour, I believe). For every hour she worked she did maybe up to two hours of preparations (sourcing materials, photocopying etc), post-work-refinements (reports, marking homework, progress meetings, answering emails etc). Turns out, when all is said and done, she was earning much less than 5 UK sterling per hour - and this is a woman in her forties, with about 15 years experience and a degree! This doesn't take into account cancellations for which she was not paid.

To her, a guaranteed 4 euros and then tips on top would be more appealing.

This is not to justify the OP's figures. It is appalling. But we are ALL being taken for a ride (well, all except the 1%).

[Pyrpolizer]

Since you state that you have been in business for some 35 years surely you must know that no business can operate on a " gross margin" of 400%, or even on 100.1%. Im sure you meant to say mark up.

Restaurants operate at exactly what I said. if the cost of fish is 20 Euros the client will pay 80. If you think the nett profit is less than 200% then you know nothing about restaurants.
Your kind of business was a totally different thing my guess is that you were operating at around 30%.

[Pyrpolizer]

€4-€5 is perfectly fine for a waiter in Cyprus who will also collect tips. Cyprus isn't Monaco, and on top of that we have just been through a crisis. Secondly, waiters are not exactly highly skilled labor, so it is expected that their wages will be among the lowest.

If the government enforced higher minimum wage then their employers would not be able to afford them, many of those would close down, and unemployment would rise.

That's a myth Sotos. I am in business for the last 35 years and I can make an accurate estimate of the annual profits of any healthy business employing up to 30 people. Restaurants are seasonal business operating on a gross margin of standard 400%. Go eat fish at Mackenzie beach,if the gross cost is 20 you will pay 80 Euros. Instead of looking at the turnover though you can look at the number of employees.
10 employees means the boss makes a minimum nett profit of 1-2 times the profit of their salary. So a typical restaurant at Mackenzie beach with 10 employees would deliver a minimum of 10,000 Euros/month nett to the Boss.
The only way to make that business non profitable would be to Double or Triple the wages of the employees.

I see lots of restaurants, cafes etc that close down, so probably there are costs which you are not considering. Also it is expected that the boss would take more money IF he manages to have a successful business, as he is the one who invested his money and time and took the risks.

If things were any different then why wouldn't everybody be a boss? Instead of being a waiter somebody could just make his own restaurant and earn 10 times more. A bank would gladly loan him the capital if it was certain that his business would be successful.

The truth is that more than half of those who open up restaurants (In Cyprus) go bankrupt. I think the percentage is more than 70%
It's more a matter of ignorance in the profession, rather than risk as such.

Notice however that those who go bankrupt a)They don't do well right from the start. b)they close down pretty fast usually within a year. c)they hardly employ anyone other than family members.d) They would still get bankrupt whatever the salaries they'd need to pay.

Yet I was not talking about those. I was talking about healthy business. Sure the boss should make most of the money because of the risk and planning and hard work he did (I was personally working 16 hours a day at the beginning including Saturdays and I was doing office work on Sundays...However the crisis gave the opportunity to all that healthy business to increase their profits at the expense of the employees.
It's the phenomenon of the rich getting richer and the poor poorer.

[Sotos]

It's more a matter of ignorance in the profession, rather than risk as such.

In that case knowledge of that profession must be an important skill, quite unlike being a waiter where pretty much anybody can be one without any risk of going bankrupt because of it.

if the cost of fish is 20 Euros the client will pay 80.

The fish is not the only cost. That fish had to be brought there, cooked and served. The dishes then have to be washed. There are electricity, water and several other bills. There are taxes to be paid. Part of social security for the employees. Then there is the rent, do you know how much land next to the sea costs? The rent they pay for such spot must be very high. etc etc. And in the end of the day yes, the boss should make a lot more than unskilled labor. Otherwise why somebody would invest his time learning the business, invest his money building the business, take risks etc just so in the end of the day to make just slightly more compared to somebody who did nothing.

Yes, in some countries an employee can make more. But in those same countries the bosses make a lot more still, and skilled workers are also paid a lot more. Everything is proportional.

[repulsewarrior]

..."being" a waiter is not so simple, it is a profession, and for those who take it as such, it may be most profitable. They are the front line, they make the feast not just good for your taste buds, but for your eyes, the shine of the plates perfectly placed, a demeanor that gives you the confidence, you will enjoy your meal, and as an experience as well.

...when i was much younger, in University, i worked in restaurant kitchens. Frankly, i've worked in kitchens a good part of my life. While i was hired at the going rate, smart owners could see that i was worth far more, often i was paid more by the second pay cheque, once double any of the rest of the staff (for two years until my direct boss retired). It was rare when i felt obliged to leave a job, except for those where price was more important than value, in affect loyalty, like quality, meant nothing to them. To this day honesty and respect are important to me, i work for money, but to make money for someone, i look for someone with this integrity, that i can trust. I still have friends in the restaurant business, and i still enjoy being welcomed to make my own food in their kitchens.

...i won't criticize this restaurant because i don't know it, but if i liked it and my boss could care less that the plates i put out are more beautiful, and that his clientele does noticeably increase, i would be out of there before they have even more expectations.

[Pyrpolizer]

It's more a matter of ignorance in the profession, rather than risk as such.

In that case knowledge of that profession must be an important skill, quite unlike being a waiter where pretty much anybody can be one without any risk of going bankrupt because of it.

if the cost of fish is 20 Euros the client will pay 80.

The fish is not the only cost. That fish had to be brought there, cooked and served. The dishes then have to be washed. There are electricity, water and several other bills. There are taxes to be paid. Part of social security for the employees. Then there is the rent, do you know how much land next to the sea costs? The rent they pay for such spot must be very high. etc etc. And in the end of the day yes, the boss should make a lot more than unskilled labor. Otherwise why somebody would invest his time learning the business, invest his money building the business, take risks etc just so in the end of the day to make just slightly more compared to somebody who did nothing.

Yes, in some countries an employee can make more. But in those same countries the bosses make a lot more still, and skilled workers are also paid a lot more. Everything is proportional.

I think you misunderstood the discussion as been some sort of workers Vs business owners conflict.
Or maybe Socialism Vs Capitalism. It's not.

I never advocated the owner should just survive, what I said is that the owners/bosses today exploit the situation to gain much more than what they should, on the expense of their employees.
Your post above deals with the breakdown/analysis of costs involved. Right from the start I talked for the gross profit, to distinguish it for the nett profit which equals to the Gross minus Expenses. That's not the point though. The point is the salaries of the employees that reach the bottom low, which the majority of employers exploit to make even more profits than what they should. Unless of course you think that 4-5 Euros per hours 48 hours per week is normal...

Let's consider the case of the restaurant at Mackenzie beach having 10 employees as an example. This restaurant by my estimates should deliver about 10,000 Euros/month Nett profit to the boss at the time the average salary for waiters and cooks etc were 1000 Euros per month.
Now that the average salary for the same personnel has dropped to 700 Euros/month and assuming the turnover is the same, the Boss
makes an extra profit of 3,000/month on the expense of the employees.

Now you may wonder how those employees accept to work at the restaurant at Mackenzie for such a low salary??
The reason is very simple: Because while the restaurant at Mackenzie did not suffer any consequences from the crisis, and continues to have the same turnover as before, at the same time 5 other restaurants saw their turnover dropping dramatically. Hence they either had to fire people, or decrease their salaries. And it's not only that. It's also people in other areas of the economy as e.g. those working at the construction industry who by 80% lost their jobs.25% unemployment as we had in 2014 pushes salaries to the minimum.

Don't tell me that the hotel owners had any effect on their turnover and profits because of the crisis.
Then why are they now employing cooks for 700 Euros per month when before the crisis they were paying them 1200??

In a nutshell:the majority of business owners that survived the crisis got richer on the expense of the employees, the rest saw their profits getting down but still living a comfortable life, while the ones who paid most of the bill are the employees (especially the younger generation) which are today forced to work for slave salaries.

I hope the point of discussion is now clear.

[miltiades]

Since you state that you have been in business for some 35 years surely you must know that no business can operate on a " gross margin" of 400%, or even on 100.1%. Im sure you meant to say mark up.

Restaurants operate at exactly what I said. if the cost of fish is 20 Euros the client will pay 80. If you think the nett profit is less than 200% then you know nothing about restaurants.
Your kind of business was a totally different thing my guess is that you were operating at around 30%.

[miltiades]

Since you state that you have been in business for some 35 years surely you must know that no business can operate on a " gross margin" of 400%, or even on 100.1%. Im sure you meant to say mark up.

Restaurants operate at exactly what I said. if the cost of fish is 20 Euros the client will pay 80. If you think the nett profit is less than 200% then you know nothing about restaurants.
Your kind of business was a totally different thing my guess is that you were operating at around 30%.

Mate, then my accountancy qual8fication was a ...waste of time. In all business there is no such thing as 100+ % profit.
Gross profit is the selling price less cost price , mark up is not used in accounts.
If your t/o on a given day is lets say 1000 euros your gross profit will be 1000 - cost lets say 200 = 800 GP = 80% .
The only way you can have 100% GP ( there is never more than 100%) is to buy goods at zero and sell for 1 cent !!

[B25]

I am with Pyro on this one. Employers have taken and are still taking advantage (read the piss) of their employees, they used the crisis as an excuse to pay less and continue to do so.

It is a F farce, that these wages are being paid today in Cyprus and the Government and their employer buddies are doing very well out of it.

What pisses me off even more is when the owners/employers also want their share of the miserly tips the staff get.

And this is not unique to waiters (and no offence to them), degree qualified staff are also offer BS money of 1000E or so. After spending some 50-60k to get educated to come to Cyprus and make some employer MF richer.

Time the government stepped in on this one, oh but wait, the government don't run the country the unions do ha ha F ha! Its no wonder we are still called a BANANA REPUBLIC.

And Milti, you are just playing with semantics, we know what Pyro was trying to say, even if you didn't.

[Pyrpolizer]

Since you state that you have been in business for some 35 years surely you must know that no business can operate on a " gross margin" of 400%, or even on 100.1%. Im sure you meant to say mark up.

Restaurants operate at exactly what I said. if the cost of fish is 20 Euros the client will pay 80. If you think the nett profit is less than 200% then you know nothing about restaurants.
Your kind of business was a totally different thing my guess is that you were operating at around 30%.

Mate, then my accountancy qual8fication was a ...waste of time. In all business there is no such thing as 100+ % profit.
Gross profit is the selling price less cost price , mark up is not used in accounts.
If your t/o on a given day is lets say 1000 euros your gross profit will be 1000 - cost lets say 200 = 800 GP = 80% .
The only way you can have 100% GP ( there is never more than 100%) is to buy goods at zero and sell for 1 cent !!

The profit is not a percentage, it's a lump sum value.
To make it a percentage you have to compare it with something.
It's actually meaningless to say your profit was say 80%. 80% of what??

Businessmen are not accountants. You accountants may like to define the profit as a percentage of the turnover, however I know a lot of business people who like to define it it as a percentage of their cost. This is a perfectly valid method because it tells you instantly how many times you increased your invested money.

Here's an everyday example:Someone bought a villa for 300K and sold it the very next day for 600K.
Do you think anyone would use the accounting method and say he got a 50% profit? (relative to the money sold)
I'd bet you 99% of the people would say I doubled my money within a day, I made a 100% profit (relative to the money I spent)