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Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Paphitis » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:24 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...indeed what is the F-16, was the Avro Arrow.

As for Huawei, i am not sure; i don't trust China much, the way they have acted in taking Canadians as prisoners, and their bad treatment. Canada has its own Trade issues with the USA, and being put in the middle this way may not be a coincidence. If this has to do with a Trade War, China is having with the USA, they show themselves no better than each other. In this case, let's not forget Canada is one of the very few friends China has among the Five Eyes. While Canada cannot choose who is their neighbour, as a Canadian it must be getting hard to be helpful, with friends like these. Neither seems to be making the effort Canada is, as members of a larger family one may call Humanity.

I do not like the idea of choosing one over the other (China/USA). Each as a technology must have a particular advantage in their design and features (so too Russia, EU, others). There may be an overall best generally speaking, but excluding all others based on such a premise does not suit the marketplace as a consumer, not all consumers are the same in their needs, and in fulfilling these needs, variety, having choices, i think, is always best.


The Americans are open to a bit of competition.

All you need to do is come to Adelaide in Australia. There is a Lockheed Martin presence their and also they are about to build 12 Short-fin Submarines for $55 Billion USD conjointly with the French. There was never any uproar from the Americans. In fact, they don't give a rats arse. They got their slice of the $55 Billion Dollar pie because a lot of the technologies and weapons will still be American. They just want Australia and Canada to develop their capabilities and to pull their weight which is what they are doing. The Americans are not selfish. They know that the Israelis, French, and Brits need a slice of the pie, and the same with Japan. South Korea, Germany and all other allies. The only issue is with places like Russia and China which could easily be (if they are not already) an enemy, which we could potentially face major threats from. Any technologies from Canada or anyone else for that matter is not frowned upon at all. The Americans like it when Canada and Australia come up with something that is cutting edge because they end up with the technology too. If the Avro Arrow had technologies which were groundbreaking, then they could already quite easily be a part of the F-35 and F-22 projects.

They have in particular been very tolerant to Australia and Canada which have both used their own developed technologies as well as utilized technologies from the UK, and Israel.

The Canadians are however a major investor in the F-35 and they are certainly not studs. These are sophisticated stealth fighter bombers at the cutting edge. The first 4 are already in service with the RAAF and they are taking delivery of new F-35s each month.

They were present at the Avalon Air Show too and at one point they did a flypast in formation with RAAF EA-18G Growler and and F-18F Hornets.

Also, there are some USAF F-35s right now at RAAF Woomera for wargames with the Aussies in the desert in the world's largest firing range. I heard them just 2 days ago fly in formation. They got their Airways Clearance and were transferred onto the same frequency I on at the time.
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Paphitis » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:08 am

And one more thing. People like to cause drama.

Yes, military cooperation with China is limited (non-existent), and we do not like them to progress further for obvious reasons. There is a lack of trust and I would say that this lack of trust is mutual.

But at the same time, both Australia and the USA trade with China in astronomical proportions so we are not really on bad terms aside for some disagreements over the South China Sea for instance. Our relations with China are much better than they are with Russia. And we use the Chinese to communicate and mediate between us and North Korea as well. China has been quite helpful to us in that regard.

Relations with Russia are however, pretty bad. Almost as bad as in the Cold War days. We may already be in a new Cold War.

You all got to remember. the Americans didn't end up with so many allies by being selfish. They Americans have partners around the globe. And in partnerships, all partners have a piece of the pie and eat it too. If the Americans were selfish, they wouldn't have all the partners and allies they have. They actually engage with countries in a responsible manner rather than push them around - that includes small countries like Cyprus. They communicate, they help, they send aid and engage in all aspects even at a cultural level.

Most of the entire world is with America. That speaks for itself.
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:50 pm

WOW! If I didn't know better and that you are such a well informed and impartial member of the forum, renowned for your level headed, balanced and pragmatic contributions to any thread ......... I would have thought you were a die hard American arse licker! :lol: :lol:

The Arrow was way ahead of anything the US had at the time,in many aspects still is, and Americans do not like being second best at ANYTHING. If they cannot match or beat the completion ..... they will either buy them out or find a way to favour their own product by downgrading the competition. :roll:
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Londonrake » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:21 pm

Robin Hood wrote:WOW! If I didn't know better and that you are such a well informed and impartial :lol: member of the forum, renowned for your level headed, balanced :lol: and pragmatic contributions to any thread ......... I would have thought you were a die hard Russian arse licker! :lol: :lol:


Sorry, sorry, sorry :oops: Just couldn't resist. Must owe you a couple of beers. :wink:
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:00 am

...wow, with Boeing, Safety is an option. Just finished reading a piece in the New York Times about the terrible Max 8, air crash.

Boeing is making other changes to the MCAS software.

When it was rolled out, MCAS took readings from only one sensor on any given flight, leaving the system vulnerable to a single point of failure. One theory in the Lion Air crash is that MCAS was receiving faulty data from one of the sensors, prompting an unrecoverable nose dive.

In the software update that Boeing says is coming soon, MCAS will be modified to take readings from both sensors. If there is a meaningful disagreement between the readings, MCAS will be disabled.

Incorporating the disagree light and the angle of attack indicators on all planes would be a welcome move, safety experts said, and would alert pilots — as well as maintenance staff who service a plane after a problematic flight — to issues with the sensors.


...seems that there may be Criminal investigations for negligence, given that the safety of the plane in affect is reduced to one sensor, and only when it is working; without the other options for sale: incredible!

...while Boeing has stated that they intend to offer some of these options for free, it retains its privilege of withholding safety features as options. In a commercial sense, this is understandable. However, if it is the case that things remain the same, Boeing will never again be able to say that they promote a culture of safety, that safety is first, something that their reputation has been built on, because this (these) incidences are hard to forget. Perhaps a plane should be sold with all its options from now on, and fleets may at that point choose to exclude options. In any case, if Boeing is truly dedicated to safety, in my mind, they will include in their design, everything, that makes it safer.
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Paphitis » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:57 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...wow, with Boeing, Safety is an option. Just finished reading a piece in the New York Times about the terrible Max 8, air crash.

Boeing is making other changes to the MCAS software.

When it was rolled out, MCAS took readings from only one sensor on any given flight, leaving the system vulnerable to a single point of failure. One theory in the Lion Air crash is that MCAS was receiving faulty data from one of the sensors, prompting an unrecoverable nose dive.

In the software update that Boeing says is coming soon, MCAS will be modified to take readings from both sensors. If there is a meaningful disagreement between the readings, MCAS will be disabled.

Incorporating the disagree light and the angle of attack indicators on all planes would be a welcome move, safety experts said, and would alert pilots — as well as maintenance staff who service a plane after a problematic flight — to issues with the sensors.


...seems that there may be Criminal investigations for negligence, given that the safety of the plane in affect is reduced to one sensor, and only when it is working; without the other options for sale: incredible!

...while Boeing has stated that they intend to offer some of these options for free, it retains its privilege of withholding safety features as options. In a commercial sense, this is understandable. However, if it is the case that things remain the same, Boeing will never again be able to say that they promote a culture of safety, that safety is first, something that their reputation has been built on, because this (these) incidences are hard to forget. Perhaps a plane should be sold with all its options from now on, and fleets may at that point choose to exclude options. In any case, if Boeing is truly dedicated to safety, in my mind, they will include in their design, everything, that makes it safer.


There is no negligence here and Boeing does not hold back on safety or commercializes it.

This is an Angle of Attack Vane. This technology has been around since WW1. Boeing and Airbus are just automating the stabilator response and stick pusher and that's it. Stick Pushes are very dangerous when they go off on Final Approach due to low airspeed. First you get the Shaker, then 7 knots later you have the pusher and down you go.

My First Officer was flying the other day and we had a Stick Shaker. Had to apply a heap of power and lower the nose to get back to Vref. 7 knots after this, is the Stick pusher so got to act quick.

In the MCAS, rather than it be hydraulically actuated, its electronically actuated. All voodoo and highly complex.

Once the Air Directives are closed out, the aircraft will be flying in a matter of a few days.
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:42 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...wow, with Boeing, Safety is an option. Just finished reading a piece in the New York Times about the terrible Max 8, air crash.

Boeing is making other changes to the MCAS software.


...seems that there may be Criminal investigations for negligence, given that the safety of the plane in affect is reduced to one sensor, and only when it is working; without the other options for sale: incredible!

...while Boeing has stated that they intend to offer some of these options for free, it retains its privilege of withholding safety features as options. In a commercial sense, this is understandable. However, if it is the case that things remain the same, Boeing will never again be able to say that they promote a culture of safety, that safety is first, something that their reputation has been built on, because this (these) incidences are hard to forget. Perhaps a plane should be sold with all its options from now on, and fleets may at that point choose to exclude options. In any case, if Boeing is truly dedicated to safety, in my mind, they will include in their design, everything, that makes it safer.


This is not the first time .........

They had design problems way back after several crashes that was eventually found to be due to a rudder control valve causing the rudder to go hard over. There were also several where the aircraft was recovered from the bank but Boeing took a long time to find the problem.

It then happened with an experienced ex-military pilot in control who managed to correct the bank (which in the crashes led to inversion) by slamming the throttle on one engine wide open. It corrected the bank but the same thing happened a few seconds later. He corrected it again and managed to get the aircraft on the ground. Then after an extensive investigation investigators found a problem with hydraulic fluid and contamination, coming from high altitude (low temp) to ground level (Higher temperature) made the valve operate almost like a switch ...... a sort-of all-or-nothing condition. Boeing made mod’s but I think they still had problems even then. To have grounded the whole fleet would have been catastrophic for Boeing, so they kept them flying inspite of not knowing what the problem was at that time.

http://www.b737.org.uk/rudder.htm

I also suspect that maybe, like all commercial decisions ...... cost is a factor. I watched one of these air-disaster programs some years ago and if an undefined condition occurs once or twice, without there being obvious reasons for it, they balance the cost of carrying out a thorough investigation, against the cost of compensation if something unpredictable happens. I know that is the case with Drug companies, they do the same thing ...... calculate the risk factor as it is often cheaper to pay out compensation than to make the drug absolutely safe!
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:08 pm

Londonrake wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:WOW! If I didn't know better and that you are such a well informed and impartial :lol: member of the forum, renowned for your level headed, balanced :lol: and pragmatic contributions to any thread ......... I would have thought you were a die hard Russian arse licker! :lol: :lol:


Sorry, sorry, sorry :oops: Just couldn't resist. Must owe you a couple of beers. :wink:


I just have a broader span of knowledge than you ....... like this guy https://stephenlendman.org/2019/03/russia-waging-war-on-the-west/ If you only use the sources you KNOW will agree with you ..... then you learn nothing! :roll: :wink:
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Londonrake » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote:I just have a broader span of knowledge than you.........

Which goes well with your inate sense of modesty.

Robin Hood wrote:If you only use the sources you KNOW will agree with you ..... then you learn nothing! :roll: :wink:


But - dear Lord - can't you see, that's exactly what you do, with your "independent" sites? You know, the ones that comprise articles which are all, absolutely and entirely, anti-west.

Clearly - it ain't gonna work. :lol: :wink:
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Re: Do you remeber the Avro Arrow and later TSR2?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:41 pm

Londonrake wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:I just have a broader span of knowledge than you.........

Which goes well with your inate sense of modesty.

Robin Hood wrote:If you only use the sources you KNOW will agree with you ..... then you learn nothing! :roll: :wink:


But - dear Lord - can't you see, that's exactly what you do, with your "independent" sites? You know, the ones that comprise articles which are all, absolutely and entirely, anti-west.

Clearly - it ain't gonna work. :lol: :wink:


I would say it's more of a look from a different angle - not necessarily anti-west
E.g look at his Brexit article here:
https://stephenlendman.org/2019/03/brexit-is-dead/
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