Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

To ask that life in Cyprus should meet the European standards, to be based on universal values such as democracy, the rule of law, respect for human rights, as well as fundamental freedoms, is not too much to ask for and shouldn't be a dream of living "in palaces".

The problem is not with these ideals, its when these ideals are (ab)used as a weapon to try and gain GC maximal demands.

You talk of the 'universal value of demcoracy' but then you place a soley GC interpretation on what 'democracy' means. You do not mean democracy in all its myriad forms and versions found around the world (and still considerd democratic). You narrow it down to a definition that happens to equate to anything other than a GC numerical majority being in sole effective control is undemocratic. You refuse to accept that one state one vote is democratic, just as one person one vote is. You basicaly take the word democratic and shape it into a tool for your aims and then try and make out you are champions of the ideal of democracy. You are not, you are champions of a narrow defintion of it that suits your aims.

We all support the rule of law. TC at least as much as GC. Again the problem is not a disrespect for the rule of law, it's who gets to make and define the law. The UN does not make the law. States make their laws internaly and international law is made through international agreements.

We all support respect of human rights but again it's a matter of who defines these and who arbitrates when one persons rights or one communites rights conflict with anothers. You can argue that the TC community has a right to self determination. GC have never accepted this and done everything in their power (legal and illegal) to stop TC as a community / people being able to exercise any degree of this right in Cyprus.

There is no problem with dreaming of these ideals and wanting to make them real (which involves hard work and compromise and sacrafice and consideration for others and comittment and many other things as well). The problem is when one side (either side) (ab)uses these worthy ideals to 'batter' the other side into submission to things that are neither right or just or a true refelection of these ideals.

[magikthrill]

erolz,

i understand your comments. however, i believe that when pantelis talks about respect of democracy and human rights he means to the extent where no one else's freedome and human rights are violated.

i don't think that human rights are something that need to be defined. in cyprus its a logical matter. allowing every person to be heard regardless of their ethnicity and religion, right?

however, you claim that some GCs abuse human rights, maybe to puruse their own agenda. if you ask me this is a load of horse poo. We are all entitled to basic human rights and if ANY cypriot is refused them then they should complain and have their voices heard.

and as far as TCs respecting the law? this time i won't get into the issue of the pseudo state being illegal. these people are living in stolen houses. stolen because they were never given or sold to them.

how is that respecting the law?

[Piratis]

So then, what do we call the above: A 50-50 power share, a 75-25 power share, or a 2/3 - 1/3 power share?

As magikthrill said, if TCs will have an effective blocking power on everything, this means 50% power, and not less.

I repeat that I accept political equality on some specific and predefined matters that can be agreed from the beginning. What I do not accept is a blocking power on everything.

Insan, we are not dreaming. This is simple reality. We do not have the power to enforce anything, so it is up to you.
Do you prefer:

a) To be the 18% of Cypriots, with an agreed solution similar to the one I propose that will make you equal EU citizens, with full guarantees for human rights and democracy as well as guarantees for the protection of your community

or

b) To be the 0.5% of Turks, in a banana republic protectorate of Turkey, were your community will have no guarantees that it will not be swallowed by the mainland Turks.

So far you have been choosing (b). You can continue to do so. Personally I think you are making the wrong choice, and what your choose harms not just GCs but also you as individuals, as well as a community. If you don't agree I am sorry, but as I said nobody can force you to change mind, and I am not "dreaming" that you will change your mind.

[insan]

I repeat that I accept political equality on some specific and predefined matters that can be agreed from the beginning. What I do not accept is a blocking power on everything.

OK. If it is what you are defending, we the TCs also have the right not accepting to give the blocking power on everything to GCs... According to Piratis version of democrasy and human rights, GC community which constitutes %80 of the population should have the power to block everything but TC community which constitutes %18 of the population shouldn't have the power to block everything. So why should TC community give their strings into the blocking hands of GC community. We better live in a seperate state, our strings in our hands...

That's all ... We know that this was/is the political stance of Makarios, all of his successors and supporters. If they constitute the majority in GC community, there's no need for further negotiations for seeking a solution on a federative basis. In this case two seperate states is the best solution!

To be the 0.5% of Turks, in a banana republic protectorate of Turkey, were your community will have no guarantees that it will not be swallowed by the mainland Turks.

Instead of being guaranteed by the Akritas junk Hellen ruling elite, most of the TCs would prefer to stay seperate and struggle against Turkish ruling elite. Majority of TCs has shown that they are not the old TCs anymore. Denktash almost was kicked out of the way. The struggle against the others won't be hard. When the partition agreement has been signed. GCs who occupy the "stolen" TC properties and TCs/Settlers who occupy "stolen" GC properties can exchange their properties. After the exchange of properties the land that does not belong to TCs would be returned to GCs. If some further claims has remained from both parties, they can bring the lawsuits to the relevant internal or international institutions.

[erolz]

erolz,
i understand your comments. however, i believe that when pantelis talks about respect of democracy and human rights he means to the extent where no one else's freedome and human rights are violated.

So what happens when your rights to have one person one vote accross all Cyprus on all decsions (which means effective control of Cyprus by GC) clashes with the TC communites right to self determination, at least to some degree in their own homeland?

i don't think that human rights are something that need to be defined. in cyprus its a logical matter. allowing every person to be heard regardless of their ethnicity and religion, right?

Human rights are defined in various charters. They basicaly fall into rights of indivduals and rights of peoples. Where the complications arise are twofold. Firstly there is no absoloute defintion of what consitutes a 'people'. Secondly there is no 'formula' for when one person rights clash with a communties right, or one communites rights clash with another communites of one indivduals with another indivdual. GC claim that TC are not a 'people' and thus are not entitled to the rights of a people. This denial is in itself an abuse of the TC communites human rights, if they are a people. This denial of our existance as a people (and thus a denial of our rights as a people) has been consistent since Cyprus' independeance. It pre dates any human rights lost as a result of the actions of 74 and continues to this day.

however, you claim that some GCs abuse human rights, maybe to puruse their own agenda. if you ask me this is a load of horse poo. We are all entitled to basic human rights and if ANY cypriot is refused them then they should complain and have their voices heard.

What I am saying is that if we are to talk of human rights and the lack thereof, to talk just of the rights lost by GC post 74 (indivdual rights to free movement in Cyprus and to former property) and to ignore the loss of the human rights of the TC community is hypocritial and calls into question the true comittment to human rights as an ideal, rather than as a convient means to and end.

and as far as TCs respecting the law? this time i won't get into the issue of the pseudo state being illegal. these people are living in stolen houses. stolen because they were never given or sold to them.

how is that respecting the law?

If TC were lawless and had no respect for the law, then crime rates would be higher in the north, murder rates would be higher, theft rates would be higher etc etc etc. They are not. What we do not respect is YOUR laws (or your interpretation of the law). We respect OUR laws as much as anyone else respects their laws.

The issue of GC lost properties is a complicated one. To make out that it is the same in it's nature to someone going into a shop and stealing goods simply because they want those goods and do not want to pay for them is to ignore the realities and the truth. I certainly understand why GC want to protray this issue as one simply of lawless TC theives seeking to take that which is not theirs for no other reason that greed. However such an approach is neither acurate, believable or helpful in trying to find an agreed settlement.

[magikthrill]

erolz,

i cant sit and quote and then respond cause i get dizzy so i will try to sum up what i want to say.

Lately, I've been reading alot of books (both fiction and non) about Greece's history from the early 20th century (don't worry im getting somwhere with this). Frmo my readings and recolletions from greek school I've gained an understanding of how Greeks and Turks have always had both good and bad relationships on a social level, just like the two groups had with their own kind. With wars and treaties these groups no longer live together.

I believe that Cyprus is the perfec tplace for these relationships to exist for an infinte amount of time. I think that GCs and TCs can learn to live together. However, as almost everyone in this forum agrees. It will take time. Also, since I am not a Cypriot myself my opinion is just that, a personal opinion. It does not represent anyone I know or dont know.
What I mean with this is that maybe it is ok for there to be power sharing in the RoC but only for a limited amount of time. After that GCs and TCs should be considered just Cypruiots and all elect their leaders on competence.

Now, as far as TRNC's are law abiding within their community, that's fine. However, within the internatinoal community (which lets face it is more important) they are not law abiding.

I don't care why they are occupying stolen houses. All I know is that they are. And as Ive said before this not only violates international law but I personally believe that it is immoral and I do not see how any human being with respect for his fellow man can do such a thing.

IMO, the only thing worst than not allowing a refugee to return to his/her homeland is genocide.

[Piratis]

According to Piratis version of democracy and human rights, GC community which constitutes %80 of the population should have the power to block everything but TC community which constitutes %18 of the population shouldn't have the power to block everything.

Piratis version? So say in France, UK, Germany, Italy or any other EU country the 18% has the right to block decisions?
If the 80% of those countries wants something (that is legal and not against the law or human rights) this something is done. In the past years several referenda were held in many EU countries. 50% + 1 vote was enough to take very important decisions.

Instead of being guaranteed by the Akritas junk Hellen ruling elite, most of the TCs would prefer to stay seperate and struggle against Turkish ruling elite.

Do you really think that you have more chances of succeeding by straggling against the Turkish ruling elite (and army) rather than with Greek Cypriots within EU? Maybe in the end we will loose 1/3rd of our country, but you loose a lot as individuals, and everything as a community (The term "Turkish Cypriot" will mean a Turk living in Cyprus and nothing more in 50 years from now). Your insistence of not recognizing that we are pushed to the our maximum compromises because we are pressed by regional and world superpowers, will cost us, but will cost you a lot more. This is sad, but as I said there is nothing we can do. We reached bottom, and you really should not expect any more compromises from us. Do whatever you think.

[insan]

Piratis version? So say in France, UK, Germany, Italy or any other EU country the 18% has the right to block decisions?
If the 80% of those countries wants something (that is legal and not against the law or human rights) this something is done. In the past years several referenda were held in many EU countries. 50% + 1 vote was enough to take very important decisions.

Yes your version! The circumstances of the countries you've given as an example is not same or similar with the circumstances of Cyprus. Even the circumstances of East Germany-West Germany, North Korea-South Korea aren't same or similar with the circumstances of Cyprus. So stop twisting the facts becuse you are being so ridiculous. In Cyprus, there are two communities with a different historical background that all other nations and communities on planet earth.

Do you really think that you have more chances of succeeding by straggling against the Turkish ruling elite (and army) rather than with Greek Cypriots within EU? Maybe in the end we will loose 1/3rd of our country, but you loose a lot as individuals, and everything as a community (The term "Turkish Cypriot" will mean a Turk living in Cyprus and nothing more in 50 years from now). Your insistence of not recognizing that we are pushed to the our maximum compromises because we are pressed by regional and world superpowers, will cost us, but will cost you a lot more. This is sad, but as I said there is nothing we can do. We reached bottom, and you really should not expect any more compromises from us. Do whatever you think.

This is our problem so leave it to us. You can't know the facts regarding North better than any TC...

[erolz]

Piratis version? So say in France, UK, Germany, Italy or any other EU country the 18% has the right to block decisions?

In the EU a government of a state representing 800,000 people has the right to block decisions of goverments representing hundreds of millions of people. Perfectly democratic. Thats about .18% by my quick calculations or a minority about a hundred times smaller than the TC numbers within Cyprus.

In the UK where there is a 'first past the post' system power can be held by a party that represents a minority of voters (let alone a minority of the population). Perfectly democratic.

An MP can be elected to a seat with as little as 35% of the vote. Perfectly democratic.

In the UK scottish MPs can sit in the scottish parliament and the UK parliament. English MPs can not sit in the scottish parliament. Perfectly democratic.

In the UK on certain issues a scottish minority of scottish voters can block decsions of a UK majority. Perfectly democratic.

The fact is that you refuse to accept that one state one vote is no more or less inhernetly democratic than one person one vote. The reason you do this is not from any belief in 'pure democracy' as a concept. You insist on this because it delivers what you (GC) want and have always wanted, a Cyprus under total effective control of the GC community. Your arguement is not for democracy, because if it was you would accept the myraid different types of democracy that exist. Your argument is for a single specific form of democracy only - one that delivers Cyprus to the effective control of your community alone.

[Piratis]

EU is not a country.

Since you like what they have in the UK so much I accept to have what they have there, do you?

Before you were arguing about US states. When I said that I accept to have it exactly the way they have it in the US you changed your words.

I accept to have what they have in the US or any of the other 25 EU states.
Would you make such offer to me? Of course no. But I do it for you. So, which country would it be?

Oh wait, we forgot to add the future EU member: Turkey. So you have 26 countires to choose from, one of which is the country you lived for so many years (so it can't be that bad) and the other your beloved motherland (so it can't be that bad either). So?