Cyprus-Forum.com

[KELEBEK]

The three R.R.Rs (These are minimum T/C demands)

In the event of a solution I would like to see:

Return of Pontian Greeks to Greece

Return of Greek troops to Greece

Recognition of T/C genocide in Tokni, Sandallar, Atilar, Muratag, Omorphita, Kophinou , and to compliment it a Trial of G/C war criminals.

[insan]

Return of all TC refugees?

[KELEBEK]

I believe even in a United Cyprus, its better if G/C and T/C stay on their own sides of the island. Unless you really want to return in which case there will be no T/C state or area.

[Piratis]

I believe even in a United Cyprus, its better if G/C and T/C stay on their own sides of the island.

Very interesting way of realizing "united". Some TCs like to give a new meaning to words like "united", "democracy", "friendship", "peace" etc.

Probably these words have a different meaning in Turkish, and some of them (e.g. democracy and peace) do not exist at all, so I understand how hard must be for you.

[magikthrill]

I will use two of these definitions and ask, where in the Annan plan (aka TC demands) are these words used correctly?


united: combined into a single entity

democracy: majority rules

[erolz]

democracy: majority rules

A very narrow definiton of democracy, which given how you define it just happens to give your community complete effective control of all of Cyprus and the TC community.

Here are some less 'manipluative' defintions of the word democracy for you.

1. [n] the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives. More...

2. [n] a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them. More...

3. [n] the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group. More...

source http://lookwayup.com/lwu.exe//lwu/d?t=& ... ng=Non&st=

So the question is which people? The GC people or the TC people? You can claim there is only a single Cypriot people - but the claim is not back up by the reality historicaly or today and so such claims that there is only a single Cypriot people as just claims of convience.

The spirit of 'democracy' is that the _people_ control government (indirectly through representatives). Thus the GC claim and insistance that there is only a single Cypriot people is itself a perversion of 'democratic' ideals. They would want a system whereby one peoples will would always override anothers and that is not democracy - thats is tyrany.

[erolz]

I will use two of these definitions and ask, where in the Annan plan (aka TC demands) are these words used correctly?

If you pervert the meaning of a word like 'democracy' then it's hardly suprising that the Annan plan does not use this term 'correctly' according to your perverted definition.

Where ever the Annan plan talks of elected (directly or indirectly) representatives by the people, it correctly reflects democracy. This is true in the consituent states and within the central state. There is nothing anti democratic in the Annan plan per se, just anti total unlimited control of one community over all of Cyprus and the other community. Your problem is not that the Annan plan is anti democratic, your problem is that it does not deliver a form of democracy that gives your community effective control of the whole island and both communites.

Of course it does not reflect your desire (and thus your single 'perverted' version of 'democracy') - which is for GC to have effective total control over all of Cyprus and TC community.

[Piratis]

the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives

We agree. The government should be elected by the people.

a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

We agree. The body (not bodies - just one) of citizens elect the government.

the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

We agree. Perfectly clear.

So what is it that you do not understand? Where does it say that democracy is based on giving equality between groups of different size based on their religion, language or culture?

I asked you some days ago to choose any other EU country and use them as a basis. Apparently for you, all other EU countries are not democratic, and only your version of "democracy" is applicable.

[erolz]

the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives

We agree. The government should be elected by the people.

No you agree it should effectively be elected by one 'people' - the GC people. Any other democratic system that alows effective representation of each of the seperate peoples in Cyprus is an anethma to you.

a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

We agree. The body (not bodies - just one) of citizens elect the government.

Yep one body. The TC compontent state representatives elected by a majority of TC. One body. The GC component state representatives elected by a majority of GC. One body. The central state representatives elected by a majority of TC component state and GC component state. One body. This is a federal system.

the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

We agree. Perfectly clear.

So what is it that you do not understand?

What I do not understand (well actually I understand only too well why and what you want) is how you can claim all Cypriots represent an 'orgnaised group'? They are not a single organised group but are two speerate organised groups (and usualy organised against each other). It is exactly because we are not a single 'orgniased group' that we need to look for solutions that reflect this reality.

Where does it say that democracy is based on giving equality between groups of different size based on their religion, language or culture?

Where does it say that for one organised group (GC) to exert and force it will on another organised group (TC) is anyhting other than oppression?

I asked you some days ago to choose any other EU country and use them as a basis. Apparently for you, all other EU countries are not democratic, and only your version of "democracy" is applicable.

Go back and read that thread. It is clear who has a 'single version' of democracy and a 'single reason' why exact copies of EU examples are not suitable.

[Piratis]

is how you can claim all Cypriots represent an 'orgnaised group'? They are not a single organised group but are two separate organized groups

You have to decide, do you want unity, or separation and partition. It is pretty clear to me that you are trying to wrap the illegal partition (which has always been your dream but you failed to realize it), into a cover of some pseudo unity, which actually has nothing to do with real unity. This is why no other system in EU or even the US federal system is good enough for you. Because those are single countries and what you are trying for is two countries which will be united just be the name and nothing more.