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Adios viejo amigo

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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Londonrake » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:53 am

Robin Hood wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...yesterday, on the all night radio talk show, was the interview with the author of a book which demonstrates that it was nothing personal, but he (Castro) had to prove the point with so many attempts on his life; he assassinated Kennedy.

...personally, i would guess that the same people who killed Kennedy wish that men like Castro are dead, as well.


LR : Note ........ now THAT's a conspiracy theory! :wink: I somehow doubt that it is true ......... but there again maybe it is true but Castro could not let it be known to protect Cuba's National Security? The Cubans have ALL the evidence but can't show it to anyone because it's secret :? .... you know the routine I am sure. :roll: :D

The idea that Trump got the job because of cyber interference by Putin .... is also a conspiracy theory. This MSM promoted idea that Russian propaganda from independent news web sites, that are all directed by the Kremlin, influenced the outcome of the US Presidential election and Brexit........ is also a conspiracy theory but an official one, so it must be true !

Common denominator ? None of them have presented any tangible evidence to support the claim. :roll:


You are quite correct.

I posted it tongue-in-cheek of course as it has been popping up on social media in a light-hearted vein.

http://www.snopes.com/fidel-castro-said ... destroyed/

As for the Russian electoral connection - dunno. Were it true I suspect much more would have been made of it. Trump though would of course be eternally grateful. :lol:
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Paphitis » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:32 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...the world without Castro, or, had Castro failed, would not be as Free. This much is clear, and there are very few Leaders in the world who can make that same claim.


I suppose it depends if you agree with the Summary executions of 73,000 of his opponents, political dissidents and others just for being Gay or Lesbian.

It's ok for Fidel to do it and receive praise which is all very interesting.
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Paphitis » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:35 am

Londonrake wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...yesterday, on the all night radio talk show, was the interview with the author of a book which demonstrates that it was nothing personal, but he (Castro) had to prove the point with so many attempts on his life; he assassinated Kennedy.

...personally, i would guess that the same people who killed Kennedy wish that men like Castro are dead, as well.


LR : Note ........ now THAT's a conspiracy theory! :wink: I somehow doubt that it is true ......... but there again maybe it is true but Castro could not let it be known to protect Cuba's National Security? The Cubans have ALL the evidence but can't show it to anyone because it's secret :? .... you know the routine I am sure. :roll: :D

The idea that Trump got the job because of cyber interference by Putin .... is also a conspiracy theory. This MSM promoted idea that Russian propaganda from independent news web sites, that are all directed by the Kremlin, influenced the outcome of the US Presidential election and Brexit........ is also a conspiracy theory but an official one, so it must be true !

Common denominator ? None of them have presented any tangible evidence to support the claim. :roll:


You are quite correct.

I posted it tongue-in-cheek of course as it has been popping up on social media in a light-hearted vein.

http://www.snopes.com/fidel-castro-said ... destroyed/

As for the Russian electoral connection - dunno. Were it true I suspect much more would have been made of it. Trump though would of course be eternally grateful. :lol:



Cyber war is the new battleground.

Not saying that Pootin did it, but major infrastructure (electrical grids and so forth) come under cyber attack all the time.

Countries are spending billions in this space - to attack and defend.

Russia has the capability to cyber attack the USA and it does so many times every week and probably vice versa.
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:17 pm

Paphitis wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...the world without Castro, or, had Castro failed, would not be as Free. This much is clear, and there are very few Leaders in the world who can make that same claim.


I suppose it depends if you agree with the Summary executions of 73,000 of his opponents, political dissidents and others just for being Gay or Lesbian.

It's ok for Fidel to do it and receive praise which is all very interesting.


That's what I mean about conspiracy theories. :roll: It is all very well providing such truly shocking statistics ............. but where do you get them from ? Unless you provide some source for them .... it could be just your opinion or wild imagination. If you provide a source then a reader can make his own mind up whether that source is credible and thus the claim.

It is irrefutable fact that the US has been responsible for the deaths of millions, even if you discount those prior to troubles in the ME ( Like .... Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos etc) over the last few of decades, but I note you ignore that and still revere them as the 'good-guys'!

What is fact is that his people, (just like Russians do regarding Putin), held the man in high standing. He was a popular leader, he had a high popularity rating. What is the popularity rating of Obama and the leaders of his coalition partner nations ? You don't get that sort of rating if you oppress and torture your own people. That's just applying common sense to reach a reasoned conclusion. The only Cubans that seem to be pi**ed off .... are those living in the US and the usual US hate/demonization crowd. :roll:
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:25 am

it's not just my opinion. it is the commonly held stance of many nations of the EU, Australia among many more countries which do not have any ties with Cuba whatsoever. it's not just about the "demonization" from the USA, but there are over 1,200,000 refugees who fled Cuba between 1959 to 1993 to Florida.

No one needs to "demonize" Fidel at all.

Statistics vary from 30,000 to 120,000 depending on the source and I took the low end with the extreme end and arrived at a figure half way in between.

But I will placate you. At the low end, there were some 15,000 people who were executed and political detainees, or for being complicit one way or another with the Batista Regime.

Either way, your only argument is that Fidel might not be as bad as I say. Well, he is friggin bloody bad no matter how you dice it.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/c ... pters/cuba

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/c ... pters/cuba

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/coun ... ricas/cuba

now, my interest in this matter is one of the human mind and its psychology. I'm not interested in arriving in an exact figure because that is IMPOSSIBLE. Cuba has been isolated for decades.

My interest in this matter is to find out on what grounds can such a despot actually engage and be praised from commentators around the world. That is what is interesting to me, especially when the same commentators just over react with the democratic will of the American and British people over BREXIT and the election of Donald Trump.

It is quite simply incoherent and illogical!

At the end of the day, Cuba is a very poor country. it is a country that has had a disproportionate impact on world affairs as a NOTHING country.

before Batista, it had a multiparty democratic system, but since Batista, Fidel and now Raul, you have a choice between Raul, Raul and if you really want another choice then that choice will have to be a prison cell. :lol:

no one really cares what cuba does. They can have that system if they want to, and we will just maintain sanctions against them and isolate them from the rest of the world. The loser is obvious.

Donald Trump has indicated that the embargoes on Cuba will remain. Another correct decision by the maestro! This Trump is full of surprises. :D

http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=55

pictures of the brutal murder of General Rojas - then police commissioner of Cuba

Image

This is the guy that yelled "Behold your revolution" Then he said, "READY, AIM, FIRE"

He died as defiant as ever, with his dignity and as a hero. he was also a leading figure in the war against Spain for Cuban Independence.
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:45 am

Paphitis:
it's not just my opinion. it is the commonly held stance of many nations of the EU, Australia among many more countries which do not have any ties with Cuba whatsoever. it's not just about the "demonization" from the USA, but there are over 1,200,000 refugees who fled Cuba between 1959 to 1993 to Florida.


They can’t have ties because the US says so. If your suggestion is correct, how come every year for the last 24 years the USGA voted in favour of lifting the Cuban Embargo/Sanctions completely ..... Australia included ..... with only two countries consistently voting against the overwhelming majority and they are The USA and Israel. :roll:

So it IS only your opinion!

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52391#.WEEKeU27rQw

No one needs to "demonize" Fidel at all.


‘Demonisation’ is a consistent MO by the US whether it is other world leaders, governments or nations. They even applied it during their elections for President ...... Clinton and Trump tried to continuously demonise one another ...... it’s the way America does things. The people are not too smart when it comes to recognising disinformation or a diversion tactic.

Statistics vary from 30,000 to 120,000 depending on the source and I took the low end with the extreme end and arrived at a figure half way in between.


Statistics are only reliable if they are scientific, include ALL relevant components and most of all, can be replicated ......... with consistent results. What you quote are guesses from different sources. Not a scientific study.

But I will placate you. At the low end, there were some 15,000 people who were executed and political detainees, or for being complicit one way or another with the Batista Regime.


It was a revolution of the people against a US backed regime that allowed the country to be raped for the interests of the few .... Batista and his supporters. So, they got rid of them ...... just like you would like to see happen with Assad. The similarity being that, like Castro’s support, the support for Assad comes from the people. In both cases this is/was antithetical to the ambitions and interests of the USA so, where they don’t fancy a fighting war (preferably using proxies these days) they unilaterally impose an illegal economic one.

Either way, your only argument is that Fidel might not be as bad as I say. Well, he is friggin bloody bad no matter how you dice it.


The Cuban people who lived under his ‘tyranny’ do not seem to agree with you! :roll: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:56 am

Paphitis:
now, my interest in this matter is one of the human mind and its psychology. I'm not interested in arriving in an exact figure because that is IMPOSSIBLE. Cuba has been isolated for decades.


Before you can start expounding your opinions on the complexities of the human psyche ....... you need a brain, that leaves you at somewhat of a disadvantage! :lol: :wink:

My interest in this matter is to find out on what grounds can such a despot actually engage and be praised from commentators around the world. That is what is interesting to me, especially when the same commentators just over react with the democratic will of the American and British people over BREXIT and the election of Donald Trump.


Depends on whether the commentators are free to make their own assessment or whether they are just journalistic mouthpieces for the Establishment’s view point. But then you only get your info from the UN and NGO’s so you would not get a balanced view of any situation.

It is quite simply incoherent and illogical!


From your view point I can understand why you would think so. They must all be mad if they see things differently from you even if they do have some evidence to support their views but you just use your gut feelings. You don’t know the meaning of logic or how to apply it! :lol:

At the end of the day, Cuba is a very poor country. it is a country that has had a disproportionate impact on world affairs as a NOTHING country.


Cuba may be poor in the International sense but the Cuban people have a far more relaxed and content life than the many in the ‘rich’ countries. I read the other day that in the US almost two thirds of the population are just one pay check away from poverty ! That does not apply to Cuba ..... no matter what, the State ensures health and welfare equally, for all it’s people. No doubt some are better off than others but the enormous gap between rich and poor is nowhere near what it is in the West.

before Batista, it had a multiparty democratic system, but since Batista, Fidel and now Raul, you have a choice between Raul, Raul and if you really want another choice then that choice will have to be a prison cell.


Batista, from what I read was effectively a Dictator and a US puppet. That is why the people got rid of him in favour of Castro and, in spite of all the spite from the US due to their trade embargo, the Cubans have lasted 50 odd years under Castro’s ‘communist’ state.

no one really cares what cuba does. They can have that system if they want to, and we will just maintain sanctions against them and isolate them from the rest of the world. The loser is obvious.


You see, you show just what the problem is and has been for over 50 years. The US is not interested in any country if they are prevented from capitalising on the wealth of a Nation and its people! And, if they can’t ..... then nobody can ..... OR ELSE! The usual approach exhibited by spoilt bullies. :x

Donald Trump has indicated that the embargoes on Cuba will remain. Another correct decision by the maestro! This Trump is full of surprises.


So far he has done a 180 on just about everything he promised in his campaign. I am disappointed in him ..... but the one thing he has stuck to is his determination to patch things up with Russia and President Putin. So your Syrian ’moderate-head-chopping- liver-eating-murdering’ terrorist child killers, had better start looking for another sponsor. Maybe Australia will take them under their wing and offer them a job in the Australian military ? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:08 am

it's not just my opinion. it is the commonly held stance of many nations of the EU, Australia among many more countries which do not have any ties with Cuba whatsoever. it's not just about the "demonization" from the USA, but there are over 1,200,000 refugees who fled Cuba between 1959 to 1993 to Florida.


Robin Hood wrote:They can’t have ties because the US says so. If your suggestion is correct, how come every year for the last 24 years the USGA voted in favour of lifting the Cuban Embargo/Sanctions completely ..... Australia included ..... with only two countries consistently voting against the overwhelming majority and they are The USA and Israel. :roll:


They can have ties if they want to. but even since Obama's visit to Cuba, Australia and many more countries choose not to.

Who cares anyway. The USA can have an embargo if it wants. Since when can the UN condemn sovereign actions of the USA?

Australia doesn't have diplomatic ties with Cuba and that is as good as an embargo.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52391#.WEEKeU27rQw

No one needs to "demonize" Fidel at all.


Robin Hood wrote:‘Demonisation’ is a consistent MO by the US whether it is other world leaders, governments or nations. They even applied it during their elections for President ...... Clinton and Trump tried to continuously demonise one another ...... it’s the way America does things. The people are not too smart when it comes to recognising disinformation or a diversion tactic.


there is no need to "demonize". fidel does a great job all by himslef.

Plus, Cuba is a NOTHING country. A mere insignificant and impoverished little blimp on the map. in other words, no one really cares about Cuba.

Statistics vary from 30,000 to 120,000 depending on the source and I took the low end with the extreme end and arrived at a figure half way in between.


Robin Hood wrote:Statistics are only reliable if they are scientific, include ALL relevant components and most of all, can be replicated ......... with consistent results. What you quote are guesses from different sources. Not a scientific study.


there have been a number of very reliable studies done, from very reputable academics and from eye witness accounts.

But regardless, it is impossible for anyone to offer you concrete and accurate numbers just like it is impossible to provide accurate data about executions and the goings on in north korea. we do our best, but that is all that can be done.

not that it matters, because it is a FACT that summary executions took place, and that Cuba is a hermit and isolated poor country, which lacks freedoms and human rights. Whether they executed 30,000 or 120,000 is irrelevant.

But I will placate you. At the low end, there were some 15,000 people who were executed and political detainees, or for being complicit one way or another with the Batista Regime.


Robin Hood wrote:It was a revolution of the people against a US backed regime that allowed the country to be raped for the interests of the few .... Batista and his supporters. So, they got rid of them ...... just like you would like to see happen with Assad. The similarity being that, like Castro’s support, the support for Assad comes from the people. In both cases this is/was antithetical to the ambitions and interests of the USA so, where they don’t fancy a fighting war (preferably using proxies these days) they unilaterally impose an illegal economic one.


that argument only stands if Fidel had opened cuba up as a viable international citizen, valued human rights and the rule of law. as it stands, the regime still thinks it is still a revolution 59 years later. A single party system, with no freedoms or HR.

Assad is even worse, and he is in his final moments. we couldn't really care about Cuba, but Assad we do care about.

Either way, your only argument is that Fidel might not be as bad as I say. Well, he is friggin bloody bad no matter how you dice it.


Robin Hood wrote:The Cuban people who lived under his ‘tyranny’ do not seem to agree with you! :roll: :lol: :lol:

yes they do. there are 1,200,000 who do agree at least.

And there are many more in Cuba who also agree.

Where are your links btw?
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:19 am

now, my interest in this matter is one of the human mind and its psychology. I'm not interested in arriving in an exact figure because that is IMPOSSIBLE. Cuba has been isolated for decades.


Robin Hood wrote:Before you can start expounding your opinions on the complexities of the human psyche ....... you need a brain, that leaves you at somewhat of a disadvantage! :lol: :wink:


These are not my opinions. These are commonly held assessments about the Fidel regime.

And you're an idiot! There is nothing I have not said which is inaccurate or an opinion.

My interest in this matter is to find out on what grounds can such a despot actually engage and be praised from commentators around the world. That is what is interesting to me, especially when the same commentators just over react with the democratic will of the American and British people over BREXIT and the election of Donald Trump.


Robin Hood wrote:Depends on whether the commentators are free to make their own assessment or whether they are just journalistic mouthpieces for the Establishment’s view point. But then you only get your info from the UN and NGO’s so you would not get a balanced view of any situation.


I think you got to be joking. our establishment don't really care enough about Cuba to be making things up and even if they did, it doesn't explain the 1.2 million exiles now does it.

It is quite simply incoherent and illogical!


Robin Hood wrote:From your view point I can understand why you would think so. They must all be mad if they see things differently from you even if they do have some evidence to support their views but you just use your gut feelings. You don’t know the meaning of logic or how to apply it! :lol:


No they can disagree, as I had disagreed about trump too. but to come around and talk nonsense about trump and then 'revere' fidel as a revolutionary who changed the world is a bit beyond mad.

Now if you go back to all my posts, you will see that has what I am trying to get my head around. trump was likened to hitler, by the Elite media. then they turn around and sob over castro's welcomed by me death.

At the end of the day, Cuba is a very poor country. it is a country that has had a disproportionate impact on world affairs as a NOTHING country.


Robin Hood wrote:Cuba may be poor in the International sense but the Cuban people have a far more relaxed and content life than the many in the ‘rich’ countries. I read the other day that in the US almost two thirds of the population are just one pay check away from poverty ! That does not apply to Cuba ..... no matter what, the State ensures health and welfare equally, for all it’s people. No doubt some are better off than others but the enormous gap between rich and poor is nowhere near what it is in the West.


yep! sure is poor!

Cool, i hope they are content wuith their $1 a day and their 1960s cars.

before Batista, it had a multiparty democratic system, but since Batista, Fidel and now Raul, you have a choice between Raul, Raul and if you really want another choice then that choice will have to be a prison cell.


Robin Hood wrote:Batista, from what I read was effectively a Dictator and a US puppet. That is why the people got rid of him in favour of Castro and, in spite of all the spite from the US due to their trade embargo, the Cubans have lasted 50 odd years under Castro’s ‘communist’ state.


I never said anything in support of batista and frankly don't know enough about it.

but if castro wanted some kind of moral ascendancy, then he would have returned Cuba to the pre batista multi party system and not be so benevolent.

no one really cares what cuba does. They can have that system if they want to, and we will just maintain sanctions against them and isolate them from the rest of the world. The loser is obvious.


Robin Hood wrote:You see, you show just what the problem is and has been for over 50 years. The US is not interested in any country if they are prevented from capitalising on the wealth of a Nation and its people! And, if they can’t ..... then nobody can ..... OR ELSE! The usual approach exhibited by spoilt bullies. :x


oh don't be like that. Do you feel unloved?

The US loves many countries and has good relations with many countries. They probably love the Cuban people too. In fact, they have proven to love both Cuba and Cubans given the fact they granted 1.2 million Cubans asylum.

Donald Trump has indicated that the embargoes on Cuba will remain. Another correct decision by the maestro! This Trump is full of surprises.


Robin Hood wrote:So far he has done a 180 on just about everything he promised in his campaign. I am disappointed in him ..... but the one thing he has stuck to is his determination to patch things up with Russia and President Putin. So your Syrian ’moderate-head-chopping- liver-eating-murdering’ terrorist child killers, had better start looking for another sponsor. Maybe Australia will take them under their wing and offer them a job in the Australian military ? :lol: :lol:


Good isn't it!

This trump guy is fast becoming my kinda a guy!

I told you that will be the case! It's the Deep State! :mrgreen:

and er no. The only way relations will improve with Pootin is if there is a comprehensive settlement. There is no other cooperation to be had. And even then, there will be no wider friendly relations with Pootin. The alliance and the Deep state will never allow it. Trump has made no indication on any level that there will be cooperation.

The Coalition for instance will never support the Assad regime or be complicit with this criminal regime under any circumstances, and pootin knows this.

What did you expect!
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Re: Adios viejo amigo

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:21 pm

Paphitis:

Plus, Cuba is a NOTHING country. A mere insignificant and impoverished little blimp on the map. in other words, no one really cares about Cuba.


Unless of course they suddenly discovered a huge reserve of oil and gas! Then the US embargos would get dropped faster than a whores knickers!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cuba - Land area ....43,000sq.miles with a population of 11.7m. ...... but no oil

Qatar - Land area .... 4,116sq.miles with a population of 1.8m ......... with lots of gas

Bahrain - Land area ....257sq.miles with a population of 1.7m ........ with lots of oil

Without the oil/gas Qatar and Bahrain are just ' .... insignificant and impoverished little blimps on the map' . At least Cuba has mountains, forests, rivers, beaches and wonderful crystal clear water for divers. The only thing that spoils the Island is a military detention and torture facility at a place called Guantanamo BAY that the US 'annexed'..... that's it ..... the one Obama swore to shut down within his first year as POTUS. :roll: :lol:
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