Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I missed your precious post, P.

"I, just like you, was born after most of the history we discuss happened. We can just stop discussing history and look in the future. What Cyprus needs is democracy, human rights for all without any racist discriminations. This is what Cyprus needs regardless of what happened in the past, and therefore we don't need to agree, or even discuss about it."


"How about improving the well being of TCs and at the same time restoring some of the legality and the human rights of Greek Cypriots?"

I agree we should stop discussing the past and with this last comment. Do you have any suggestions that would meet this criteria?

The main problem of TCs is the isolation and the main problem of GCs is their land. What I think would be a step in the right direction is:

1) All sales of GC properties to foreigns in the occupied areas to stop.
2) The return of the "ghost city" of Famagusta
3) The opening of the Famagusta port under EU authority so the TCs can trade directly from this port.
4) In the next elections for the EU parliament the TCs to take 2 out of the 6 seats given to Cyprus. Those TCs however should be elected by the Turkish Cypriots only, not by the settlers.

[mem101]

Haha I just realised I wrote "I missed your precious post, P" I think you gathered I meant "previous".

They all sound like good places to start, they help improve TCs well-being and restoring some legality for GCs as well as incorperating more interaction between the communities especially since Famagusta well basically be "shared" in that situation.

"not by the settlers" - thats a complicated issue I think - the GC side would have to reciprocate. I read an article recently which stated that voting TCs constitute approx 70% of the TRNC population of which approx 67% are full TC, a further 7% have one TC parent and the other 26% come under neither bracket. I suppose some are GC and some are citizens through long term settlement.

Just so you fully understand my own personal stance Piratis, as I said before I want lasting peace on the island for all. I personally would accept this peace whether it is acheived via a unitary state, a 2 state, one nation proposal, or a partition proposal.

[lupusdiavoli]

Hosh bouldouk Birkibrisli,

I don' t mind whatever you call me. It' s upon your taste.

And it is upon my taste to read reality using my own criteria. Now the discussion was dominated by historic elements after Piratis introduced his relevant arguments. As in many fields history is read in different spirit. Certainly a historic reality exists but to contemplate it far from someone's preconceptions, subjective feelings is hard.

Tempting it is but I have no desire to enter such a circle of arguments.

Some cannot though realise that the past dominates in many ways the present. For instance the reality on the ground is the result of past events. Nobody can try solving the Cyprus issue if not having in mind the ground reality plus the time passed since 1974. The latter should be born in G/C mind. It seems to them that by seting forth the human rights issue is enough to solve everything.
Are they really prepared to share? It is as if by some mericle the clock will reverse to 60's or 70's. You cannot lose a war and take the fight by treaties or legalities. That is why partition gradually is accepted by more in their side. No one will speak of it. Simply because they will call him a traitor.

Reality is hard when you have to admit that due to the balance of power you have to make compromises. The latter whatever the scheme of a new state may be bears the need for the G/C to accept a partner.

They are right feeling insecure. There is a risk there for them. Alongside is the issue of economic stability. Their wealth. But on the island majurity does not rule. Unless a compromise is found, something to discuss, the time will solve the issue. Gradually TRNC will gain recognition. A look towards Kosovo where analogy can be found would teach GC something. I refer to Kosovo since it is an example of how a State, that is Servia will be obliged one way or another to accept the autonomy of the new regime there. But GC are occupied with other things I think... Summer is coming... Tourists... Chance for profit....

So gardash Birkibrisli what u think...? Piratis what about u except historical and legal aguments anything else?

mem101? everyone has a common dream - lasting peace for all on the island of Cyprus? Sure. Peace? One can find such thing in the cemetery too.... OK. On whose terms is the issue.

[mem101]

"One can find such thing in the cemetery too.... "

How very sceptical of you!

"OK. On whose terms is the issue."

Hence my use of the qualifier "all". OK not likely, thats why I called it a dream.


The rest is all very relevant and true. But the reason I joined this forum was not to "solve the Cyprus question." To think that that would be possible in a forum is naiive to say the least. No, I really joined and I hope this is true of others here too, was to air my views, discuss them and in turn hear what other Cypriots have to say. I've read many forums/internet discussions, and been to places, etc where hostility is rife. I think it would be good for me and for Cypriots if we could come together in a place such as this and converse with respect for one another, and maybe even form friendships.

Over and out.

[Piratis]

lupusdiavoli, there is also international law which is not subjective but totally clear in our case.

Tell me one reason why GCs should accept partition or the violations against our human and legal rights. Accept that to gain what? What is there more valuable than our human rights and our dignity?

As far as I and the great majority of Greek Cypriots is concerned our country is not for sale. Maybe you would trade in your country for a couple of dollars, but not me. We are just different kind of people, thats why it is probably hard for you to understand our perspective.

Compromises can be made, but not on democracy and human rights. And power of course can be shared, but be shared fairly and proportionately like it is done in all other democratic countries.

The "trnc" will never be recognized. But even if we assume for arguments sake that all other countries recognize it, we will not, which will give us the moral ground to take back our lands once the balance of power shifts.

Just so you fully understand my own personal stance Piratis, as I said before I want lasting peace on the island for all. I personally would accept this peace whether it is acheived via a unitary state, a 2 state, one nation proposal, or a partition proposal.

I want peace too. It is the 3rd most important thing after democracy and human rights. I am a firm believer that people should fight for those ideals that can make our world a better one. Just accepting the peace of the powerful that will enslave you and take away your human rights is definitely not a progressive thing to do.

[mem101]

"I am a firm believer that people should fight for those ideals that can make our world a better one. Just accepting the peace of the powerful that will enslave you and take away your human rights is definitely not a progressive thing to do."


Agreed.

[seleucus Nicator]

"

The Ottoman rule of Cyprus was a peaceful time on the island! The GCs actually invited the turks to invade in order to liberate them from the Venetians, and when they arrived, they helped with the conquest and the ousting of Venetian settlers. The GCs essentially had complete autonomy - the Archbishop was their leader and well respected by the Ottomans. Obviously, no 300 year period is ever going to be completely free of troubles but I was given to understand that the Cyprus problem only really began at the end of the 19th century when the Ottomans made a pact with Britain which involved handing over the island's administration.

If you learn this kind of history then we have two possibilities or you brainwashed or you just missinformed.

Well because history is my hobby i will try to make clear some thinks.
Ottomans supported only their interest and they were not tolerance.
Latin and Ottomans main interest is to collect taxes with the less expenses.
Thats why they wanted their subjects alive , to pay taxes (In the Ottoman empire Muslims didn't pay taxes).
After the conquest of Cyprus from the Ottomans the prospects for better condition were denied (for Cypriots)
this was the reason that asking the help from the western powers (mainly from Spain and the Duke of Savoia because the Dukes had rights to Cyprus throne)to “freedom” them from the ottomans.The way that were asking help was with letters ,the first known letter was from Archbishop Timotheus to the king of Spain Philip II (24/10/1587)which stated:
There have recently been repeated cases of abuse on the part of the conqueror; in a greedy manner they attempt to confiscate and seize the property of the inhabitants; Christian houses are broken into and domiciles violated, and all sorts of dishonest acts against wives and daughters are committed. Twice until now churches and monasteries have been plundered, multiple and heavy taxes have been imposed whose collection is pursued by systematic persecution, threats and tortures, which lead, many persons to the ranks of Islam, while at the same time, the male children of Cypriot families are seized in order to form the brigades of the Jannissaries. This most hard practice is the worst of the sufferings to which the people of Cyprus is subjected by the Ottoman administration."
We have also to mention that between 1572 and 1668, the Cypriots staged 28 "bloody" uprisings to protest the taxes. That's an average of one bloody uprising every 3 and a half years.
Ofcourse we cannot evaluate what happened during the medieval ages in terms of the declared criterias of our era because Ottomans were conquering areas ,the same did Venetians English Spanish Romans (East or West) and others.Everybody had the same goal ,incomes from the conquering areas.This was the reason that America was discovered ... money.
If you need some more clarification I ll be glad to give it to you.

[BirKibrisli]

Hosh bouldouk Birkibrisli,

I don' t mind whatever you call me. It' s upon your taste.

And it is upon my taste to read reality using my own criteria. Now the discussion was dominated by historic elements after Piratis introduced his relevant arguments. As in many fields history is read in different spirit. Certainly a historic reality exists but to contemplate it far from someone's preconceptions, subjective feelings is hard.

Tempting it is but I have no desire to enter such a circle of arguments.

Some cannot though realise that the past dominates in many ways the present. For instance the reality on the ground is the result of past events. Nobody can try solving the Cyprus issue if not having in mind the ground reality plus the time passed since 1974. The latter should be born in G/C mind. It seems to them that by seting forth the human rights issue is enough to solve everything.
Are they really prepared to share? It is as if by some mericle the clock will reverse to 60's or 70's. You cannot lose a war and take the fight by treaties or legalities. That is why partition gradually is accepted by more in their side. No one will speak of it. Simply because they will call him a traitor.

Reality is hard when you have to admit that due to the balance of power you have to make compromises. The latter whatever the scheme of a new state may be bears the need for the G/C to accept a partner.

They are right feeling insecure. There is a risk there for them. Alongside is the issue of economic stability. Their wealth. But on the island majurity does not rule. Unless a compromise is found, something to discuss, the time will solve the issue. Gradually TRNC will gain recognition. A look towards Kosovo where analogy can be found would teach GC something. I refer to Kosovo since it is an example of how a State, that is Servia will be obliged one way or another to accept the autonomy of the new regime there. But GC are occupied with other things I think... Summer is coming... Tourists... Chance for profit....

So gardash Birkibrisli what u think...? Piratis what about u except historical and legal aguments anything else?

mem101? everyone has a common dream - lasting peace for all on the island of Cyprus? Sure. Peace? One can find such thing in the cemetery too.... OK. On whose terms is the issue.

You are confusing me,lupus gardash...Hosgeldin? Hos bulduk???
do we know each other by any chance???

You make a lot of sense.It is dificult to argue with your post because you don't really put forward any concrete opinions. You seem to be saying that reality on the ground must be taken as supreme in any solution...And if one waits long enough the world will have no other choice but accept the reality on the ground...Is that what you are saying?I am not sure how much weight you give to historical events...To 1571 for example? To 1878? To 1960? To 1963-74? I try to put everything together and come up with a peace soup which will satisfy most Cypriots...And my ideal solution is one that rights the major wrong in this equation.The fact that Cypriots were not allowed to become themselves,but had to fly the flag of their "motherlands"...You cannot right this wrong by any other means but to go back and establish one nation one people one country formula...This is the best way,the only way to achieve lasting peace...What do you say?

[mem101]

seleucus Nicator,

For the record: I've seen this term "brainwashed" around the forum but seeing it used on me, I find it, quite frankly, offensive. I am my own person, I have my own mind and would never be subjective to "brainwashing" by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry but I just needed to get that off my chest.

With regards to the ottoman rule, I must admit that I have not done extensive reading on the subject and what I wrote there was based on a few articles I read. I intend to do some reading on the Ottoman Empire as whole in the very near future. Thanks for the info, can I ask for your sources? History is a sort of hobby of mine as well - to the extent that I enjoy reading the occasional unbiased (or as unbiased as possible) historical books.

Also, I think the point I was trying to make was that the TC and GC communities lived together in relative peace and that the GC had a sense of autonomy. I'm now aware of the tax situation but I thought the TCs had to pay taxes too and that there was a joint uprising against their taxers on at least one occasion. When referring to TCs I'm talking about turks who were forced to migrate to cyprus, and converted catholics. Again bear in mind I haven't done extensive reading on the subject.

[lupusdiavoli]

"One can find such thing in the cemetery too.... "

How very sceptical of you!
"OK. On whose terms is the issue."
Hence my use of the qualifier "all". OK not likely, thats why I called it a dream.
The rest is all very relevant and true. But the reason I joined this forum was not to "solve the Cyprus question." To think that that would be possible in a forum is naiive to say the least. No, I really joined and I hope this is true of others here too, was to air my views, discuss them and in turn hear what other Cypriots have to say. I've read many forums/internet discussions, and been to places, etc where hostility is rife. I think it would be good for me and for Cypriots if we could come together in a place such as this and converse with respect for one another, and maybe even form friendships.
Over and out.

Mem101,
Skepticism has a long history u know.
Well I am not surprise if hostility is rife all around. To find reasonable arguments upon dialectic ground that lead to a synthesis is not the most common. As I said before on a single level man to man you may achieve strong relations, even friendship. The hardness though lies where politics frame the issue, such as the Cyprus issue. You cannot easily remain a bystander in the middle. Unless u have a solid cold mind.

Piratis if “international law” is your ally, which I admit it is, it doesn’ t help too much u know. Speaking of reality I cannot see how resolutions and all the same help you except offering some psychological compensation. You don’ t realize though that international law is only an element when having to do with politics.
And you also like to forget that international law, which most certainly is subjective when it comes to its interpretation …. see the term “guarantees” for instance or the weakness of those body competent to enforce it. UN. It is the same body which offered you lately the “diavolic” Annan plan. I am sure u did not find it in accord with your interpretation of international law…

I can easily tell you a reason why GCs should accept partition or the violations against their human and legal rights. Because they are weak. Add another one. They are not in position to do anything for the opposite. There are many values beside human rights and dignity.

Let me tell u about the latter. How the GC feel coming in the “occupied” areas. What degree of dignity they have? I know it hearts, does it not?

Human rights. The fashion of 20th history. Liberals embrased the idea because it serves their purposes. OK. Everything comes again to interpretation. Sorry I don’ t believe in human rights. It is simply another theoretical weapon in the history of ideas much employed by politics, as always.

Your country is not for sale. Ah this sounds heroic. Go to the Land Registrar of your region and you may change your mind. But I accept that subjectively speaking your country is not for sale. I understand you more than u can ever imagine. Ask your feelings since if you reach this line you r still thinking for the dignity issue above.

Let me remind u. What degree of dignity carry the people who coming like tourists in their “occupied” land?

Democracy is a compromise by nature. Power of course can be shared fairly and proportionately like it is done in all other democratic countries GC side already accepted otherwise in the 77-78 agreements. There are systems and systems on what concerns governance. How u interpretate democracy and all the same is another issue.

Democracy a greek word I think by the way. The funny thing is that “balance of power” and that “law” is the will of the powerful is a concept of greek origin too.

Everybody here likes history. Go read Peloponnesian war. The Americans introduced it in their strategic departments long ago.

Until the balance of power shifts…. I agree. Provided u do something for this.

The rest concern your value theory. It is up to u.

Nicator,

I totally agree with u in your way of reading history. It carries that realism I prefer.
I wonder whether u apply the same way on what regards let us say Alexander & Macedonians or the process put forward by his father… I believe you do.

No gardash I don’ t think we know eachother. What makes u think that?
I simply followed your “game” path.

Being skeptical helps not to …put forward any concrete opinions. But I could say that there is opinion at the backstage. Reading between the lines. Interpretation as I said above.

Yes. Reality on the ground must be taken as a supreme element. It is a decisive factor in any conflict. In such cases yes tine is of the essence and favours those who possess ground. Ground reality gradually comes to meet legitimacy whether someone likes it or not. History is full of like examples.

1571,1878, 1960, 1963-74… The landmark dates. I have my views. I said that I prefer to avoid a circle of arguments on that base.

I could though easily say that based on history Cyprus through time belong to the greek cultural corpus. I cannot see how it differs from Crete or any other island of Aegean. The same goes for Minor Asia as well. After a point Greeks lost their dominance since new power emerged, the Ottoman Empire mostly. 19th and 20th century gave place to ethnic conflicts and following the decomposition of Ottoman Empire Greece and Turkey enter a long standing conflict. If u ask Greeks about the 1922 events, Istanbul and the same they will claim them historically speaking.

Reality on the ground speaks otherwise. Greeks and GC lost successive battles in this conflict. They are the weak side. Unless they compromise themselves with the reality they will lose more. It is simple as that.

Flag is not something holly to me. Anybody can fly the flag of his taste. I cannot deprive self-determination for someone. You refer again in one nation. If u want to be precise you should employ the term “state”. I cannot see something like a nation of Cypriots. Peace is achieved at the point where the weak side accepts the will of the powerful. And this is reality beyond ethics, beyond international law, beyond desires. It is the hard language of thousands years of history. Provided you read it calmly and realistically.