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[Alexandros Lordos]

Yes, you are right Alexandros. In the hands of bigger capital owners TCs will actually be making the decisions.

%5 vs %24

TCs win! No doubt.

Master and servant relations.

OK, I understand your objection, let's think this through:

- Let's assume that TCs are allowed to keep their current residences, plus the properties on which their businesses are based (plus of course all properties which belonged to them prior to 1974, let's not forget that).

- Furthermore, let's say that GC companies cannot invest in the north for the first fifteen years unless they make TCs their business partners (as I explained in another post).

- In other words, most of the wealth-production in the north will actually be in TC hands. (Note that welath production ratio and property ratio are not the same thing: USA is only 3-4% of the world's territory, but it is something like 30% of the world's wealth-production.)

- Since the capital owners (in terms of wealth production) will be TCs, any GC who comes to invest in the north (eg build a home) will only make TCs richer (since he will have to apply to a TC construction company to build his home, a TC furniture company in order to furnish it and so on).

So, unless you disagree with my analysis above, where do you see the master-slave relationship?

[insan]

Btw.

%33 of 24 = 7

That makes 1/4 plus of 24 senators form TC constituent state. Then you can easily obtain the 1/4 even 2/5 of the senators of each constituent state to make good decisions about whole Cyprus. I'm aware of that everyone skips the full political rights of internal citizens of TCCS. Keep discussing my friends. Good luck to all of you.

See you at the Greek Kalendes!

[Alexandros Lordos]

Btw.

%33 of 24 = 7

That makes 1/4 plus of 24 senators form TC constituent state. Then you can easily obtain the 1/4 even 2/5 of the senators of each constituent state to make good decisions about whole Cyprus. I'm aware of that everyone skips the full political rights of internal citizens of TCCS. Keep discussing my friends. Good luck to all of you.

See you at the Greek Kalendes!

Insan, I thought it was made clear by now that Senators are to be elected according to ethnicity and not according to internal citizenship, precisely in order to protect TCs from the eventuality you mention above.

In other words, 24 out of 48 senators will always be TC, no matter how many GCs are internal citizens of the TCCS. I have no problem with this.

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[insan]

OK, I understand your objection, let's think this through:

- Let's assume that TCs are allowed to keep their current residences, plus the properties on which their businesses are based (plus of course all properties which belonged to them prior to 1974, let's not forget that).

Ok.

- Furthermore, let's say that GC companies cannot invest in the north for the first fifteen years unless they make TCs their business partners (as I explained in another post).

Wouldn't they argue that it's a violation of businessmen rights. Who can force a businessman to decide whether to make TCs their business partners in any degree or not?

- In other words, most of the wealth-production in the north will actually be in TC hands. (Note that welath production ratio and property ratio are not the same thing: USA is only 3-4% of the world's territory, but it is something like 30% of the world's wealth-production.)

It is known that the current wealth-production in North is so small when compared with the South/per capita. Let's say the the total capital of wealth-production sector is 5 $ and needs 25$ more investment to be equaited with the South on per capita basis; %30 of the 25$ will be invested by TCs(If they have it and allocated of course). %30 of 25$ makes 7$. 7+5=12

In the end, I'm speaking hypothetically; the capital of the wealth production of North will be sared as follows:

12$ TCs + 18$ GCs+foreigners

In capitalist countries, we all well know that the actual governors are the big capital owners not their puppet Senators.

- Since the capital owners (in terms of wealth production) will be TCs, any GC who comes to invest in the north (eg build a home) will only make TCs richer (since he will have to apply to a TC construction company to build his home, a TC furniture company in order to furnish it and so on).

Does a GC have to apply to a TC construction compony for a home build, in a free country?

So, unless you disagree with my analysis above, where do you see the master-slave relationship?

If there has been a crowdy people group around you shouting "fredom, freedom" I think you too would disagree with yourself, Alexandros(Though you too can clearly hear them). Every group of Cypriots run after their own interests. If any restrictions clashes with their interests; they look for way to influence politicians in direction of their interests. Shortly, in practice everything goes in direction of the economically most powerful groups.

Though you know it better than me that all these difficulties lay infront of us like mines of various fields...

[insan]

Insan, I thought it was made clear by now that Senators are to be elected according to ethnicity and not according to internal citizenship, precisely in order to protect TCs from the eventuality you mention above.

In other words, 24 out of 48 senators will always be TC, no matter how many GCs are internal citizens of the TCCS. I have no problem with this.

So how the internal GC citizens of TC constituent state will exercise their full political rights?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Insan,

in response to various issues you've brought up:

Concerning businessmens' rights being limited, I don't think people will complain given that it will be a temporary measure. Of course, some will compain whatever you give them, but they are not the issue here.

Concerning voting rights: In Annan 5, GCs vote for 24 GC senators, wherever they personally live, and TCs vote for 24 TC senators, wherever they personally live. So everyone has voting rights.

Concerning the overall issue of economic control and how it translates to political control: I acknowledge the danger that you are putting forward, and I also acknowledge that this issue has to be explored very carefully with serious economic feasibility studies and projections ...

Fot the TCCS economy, we need to avoid two extremes: On the one hand, it remaining under-developed because of excessive restrictions, and on the other hand, it being over-run and controlled by GCs because of lack of regulation. The TCCS economy should be prosperous, open, and largely owned by TCs. If we can agree on this principle, then the rest (i.e. how to get there) is merely a technical issue.

Must sleep now, have a good night.

[insan]

Insan,

in response to various issues you've brought up:

Concerning businessmens' rights being limited, I don't think people will complain given that it will be a temporary measure. Of course, some will compain whatever you give them, but they are not the issue here.

I hope so, Alexandros.

Concerning voting rights: In Annan 5, GCs vote for 24 GC senators, wherever they personally live, and TCs vote for 24 TC senators, wherever they personally live. So everyone has voting rights.

Hmm... so what is the arguement revolving around full political rights of internal GC citizens of TCCS?

Concerning the overall issue of economic control and how it translates to political control: I acknowledge the danger that you are putting forward, and I also acknowledge that this issue has to be explored very carefully with serious economic feasibility studies and projections ...

It seems we have a long long way to go. Cyprus is a small Island but the difficulties in front of a "fair" reunification is far bigger than its size.

For the TCCS economy, we need to avoid two extremes: On the one hand, it remaining under-developed because of excessive restrictions, and on the other hand, it being over-run and controlled by GCs because of lack of regulation. The TCCS economy should be prosperous, open, and largely owned by TCs. If we can agree on this principle, then the rest (i.e. how to get there) is merely a technical issue.

A fair principle you put forward, Alexandros. I hope majority of GCs would acknowledge it in practice as well.

Must sleep now, have a good night.

You too have a good night, Alexandros.

[magikthrill]

all these numbers are making me dizzy.

anyway i wanted to ask you alexandre a few questions:

1) how will it be decided which 1/3 gets their property back
2) will the remaining 2/3 have the right to live in their old towns/villages?

oh and it is assumed that the people in the 2nd categoery will be compensated monetarily or given property of equal value .

[Alexandros Lordos]

:shock: all these numbers are making me dizzy.

anyway i wanted to ask you alexandre a few questions:

1) how will it be decided which 1/3 gets their property back
2) will the remaining 2/3 have the right to live in their old towns/villages?

oh and it is assumed that the people in the 2nd categoery will be compensated monetarily or given property of equal value .

Magikthrill,

the basic feature of the Annan Plans was that Property rights and residence rights are to be treated as two separate things. Property goes back to everyone (except property that a person may not keep "because it would adversely affect TCs, that's what our argument has been about in the previous posts, what is the true meaning of "adversely affected").

Residence will be granted sepaparately, irrespective of whether someone owns or doesn't own property, and up to one third of the total population of the TC state (ie 70,000 to 100,000) will be allowed to become residents (actually, this is strictly regulated in the Annan Plan, with severe timetables to limit the exercise of this right in the first twenty-or-so years - and this will have to go). That number of 70,000 to 100,000 is more than enough in practice to cover anyone who might wish to relocate to the north, but most people will not take advantage even of this and instead will choose to have a second home in the north, either a working-week home or a holiday-home, while they remain residents of the GC constituent state. (this, everyone is allowed to do from day one of the solution)

Does this answer your questions?