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[Alexandros Lordos]

Concerning voting rights: In Annan 5, GCs vote for 24 GC senators, wherever they personally live, and TCs vote for 24 TC senators, wherever they personally live. So everyone has voting rights.

Hmm... so what is the arguement revolving around full political rights of internal GC citizens of TCCS?

I guess it depends who you ask ... some people take issue with the fact that the senate will be elected along ethnic lines, they think this is racist and so on. Personally I disagree, I believe that ethnic voting of the senate is essential to guarantee the stability of the solution.

Another issue which some TCs bring up, is that GCs who become residents of the TCCS should not have voting rights in the north at all, eg for the constituent state government, but instead they should all vote in the south. This is an idea I strongly disagree with, we would be creating second class citizens without a voice.

Basically, in my view, political rights is no longer an issue. It was the only aspect of a solution that was adequately dealt with in the Annan Plan.

It only becomes an issue for, let's say, psychological reasons. However many GCs return to the north, or TCs to the south, they will always be a minority. And the fear of the majority will no doubt come into play ...

I think this is an inherent weakness of any bizonal solution, in that it will create two minorities in its effort to protect one minority. The only way to overcome this problem is to go back to a 1960-type of agreement, to a bicommunal unitary state with a shared central government and autonomy on cultural and educational issues...

But that takes as too far: I do not believe it is politically feasible to stray so far from the current "solution blueprint", because politics and diplomacy are inherently conservative ...

[insan]

I guess it depends who you ask ... some people take issue with the fact that the senate will be elected along ethnic lines, they think this is racist and so on. Personally I disagree, I believe that ethnic voting of the senate is essential to guarantee the stability of the solution.

I agree with you. Electing senate along ethnic lines is not racist, in my opinion. It's the essential of bi-communality and "political equality" of two communities.

Even the following provision of Annan Plan which safeguards the TC quality, demographic ratio and political structure of TCCS, cannot be considered as a racist derrogation.

Code: Select all

2. Thereafter, the United Cyprus Republic, in consultation with the Commission, may take safeguard measures to ensure that the demographic ratio between Cyprus permanent residents speaking either Greek or Turkish as mother tongue is not substantially altered. Article 4 Safeguard measures

http://www.cyprus-un-plan.org/AppendixD ... nnex_D.pdf

Another issue which some TCs bring up, is that GCs who become residents of the TCCS should not have voting rights in the north at all, eg for the constituent state government, but instead they should all vote in the south. This is an idea I strongly disagree with, we would be creating second class citizens without a voice.

Again, I agree with you at this point, too. A minor clone of political structure of Federal Government can be established at the constituent state level and still the rights of TCs safeguarded. At constituent state level; establishing a senate, a house and a governors council similar with the senate, house and the presidential council of Federal government can easily solve the political participation problem(Full political rights) of permenant GC residents(internal GC citizens) of TCCS and vice versa.

Basically, in my view, political rights is no longer an issue. It was the only aspect of a solution that was adequately dealt with in the Annan Plan.

I still don't think so...

It only becomes an issue for, let's say, psychological reasons. However many GCs return to the north, or TCs to the south, they will always be a minority. And the fear of the majority will no doubt come into play ...

This is true but still does not resolve their full political rights, participation to legislature and governing at the constituent state level.

I think this is an inherent weakness of any bizonal solution, in that it will create two minorities in its effort to protect one minority. The only way to overcome this problem is to go back to a 1960-type of agreement, to a bicommunal unitary state with a shared central government and autonomy on cultural and educational issues...

In my opinion; a 1960 type of agreement can only help to resolve the restrictions on right to settlement in each constituent state. As I suggested above; establishing a minor clone of federal government at the constituent state level can completely resolve the political rights problem.

But that takes as too far: I do not believe it is politically feasible to stray so far from the current "solution blueprint", because politics and diplomacy are inherently conservative ...

I agree. [/quote]

[Piratis]

Again the same rhetoric,

“I do not need to compromise with you, because you have no such right, but I will anyway”

Sorry not enough. We can wait another 30 years for you to accept our rights. It’s fine by me, and apparently it’s fine by you too. That is the only thing we can agree on anyway with you.

Ok. I said that we are ready to compromise, but that is apparently not enough for you. Not only you want us to compromise, you want us to also agree with you that you are right on whatever you ask for. If we agreed with you that you had those rights, then we wouldn't ask from you to compromise them in the first place.

You can wait 30 years if you want, however you should keep in mind that the balance of power shifts, and one day we might not be so compromising and you might not have the option of choosing the illegal de facto partition either. Meanwhile the years of violations of our human rights are increasing, and you should not expect us to be always as forgiving as we are now.

[Alexandros Lordos]

A minor clone of political structure of Federal Government can be established at the constituent state level and still the rights of TCs safeguarded. At constituent state level; establishing a senate, a house and a governors council similar with the senate, house and the presidential council of Federal government can easily solve the political participation problem(Full political rights) of permenant GC residents(internal GC citizens) of TCCS and vice versa.

Yes, this is your "political equality for all" thesis...

Though I acknowledge that your suggestion is noble, I fear it might prove very dysfunctional in practice. With the Annan Plan, we have one very complicated and delicately balanced government and two simple-to-run governments. With your suggestion, we will have three very complicated and delicately balanced governments to cope with.

If the idea is that there should be participation between GCs and TCs at every level of decision making (which is where your suggestion inevitably leads), can't we achieve that in a simpler way with just one government, instead of three?

My own thought to alleviate the "double minority" problem (minority of GCs in the north and TCs in the south) is to put much of their everyday life in the hands of the Federal Government - a prime example being education. Then it won't matter so much that they are a political minority in the constituent state.

Another idea is to harmonize the constitutions and laws of the constituent states, so that they both exude the same aroma of "european-ness". For instance, in the Annan Plan TCCS constitution, a newspaper can be shut down with the ruling of one judge. Such deviatiopns from European standards of democracy will not be appreciated by GCs coming to live in the north. A further danger is that extra-constitutional ruling bodies might be set up in the north, or even in the south, which will comprise Turks and TCs (or Greeks and GCs) to somehow co-ordinate policies in the same fashion as the current "TRNC" - whereas according to the Annan Plan, the two constituent states should mostly be co-ordinating with each other rather than with outsiders. Again, such issues would strongly affect minority GCs living in the north, and vice verca.

[insan]

Yes, this is your "political equality for all" thesis...

Though I acknowledge that your suggestion is noble, I fear it might prove very dysfunctional in practice. With the Annan Plan, we have one very complicated and delicately balanced government and two simple-to-run governments. With your suggestion, we will have three very complicated and delicately balanced governments to cope with.

I don't think that my suggestion concerning a fairer and contemporary political structure for United Cyprus, is a noble idea. It is based upon the US federal system. In US most of the states have its own legislature, house and judiciary under the Federal US senate, House, Judiciary and constitution. The only distinction between US federal System and the one proposed for Cyprus is that Cyprus would be a bi-communal federation. If the authorities, obligations, duties and regulations of the each component of Federal State/Constituent State are explicit in the Federal and state constitutions; the functionality of the each component of the Federal and constituent states depends upon to the Legislatures, Representatives, Presidential Council, Governors Council and judiciaries of the Federal and Constituent States. If all of them fulfil their duties properly, in accordance to the Federal/State constitutions, Federal/State laws and regulations; I don't see any reason such a political system to become dysfunctional.

If the idea is that there should be participation between GCs and TCs at every level of decision making (which is where your suggestion inevitably leads), can't we achieve that in a simpler way with just one government, instead of three?

Why not, if it is feasible and acceptable to both communities but I still think that it would be much better to vest the components of Federal and Constituent States seperately in order to create a fast and steadily working State structure. I also think that such a Federal State/Constituent state structure would minimize the conflicts between Federal State and Constituent states. Besides it would minimize the conflicts between the majority and minority of each Constituent State.

My own thought to alleviate the "double minority" problem (minority of GCs in the north and TCs in the south) is to put much of their everyday life in the hands of the Federal Government - a prime example being education. Then it won't matter so much that they are a political minority in the constituent state.

Why not, if they wish so...

Another idea is to harmonize the constitutions and laws of the constituent states, so that they both exude the same aroma of "european-ness". For instance, in the Annan Plan TCCS constitution, a newspaper can be shut down with the ruling of one judge. Such deviatiopns from European standards of democracy will not be appreciated by GCs coming to live in the north.

But if the GC citizens of TCCS participate in TCCS judiciary similarly with the Federal Judiciary, such problems could be overcomed democratically.

A further danger is that extra-constitutional ruling bodies might be set up in the north, or even in the south, which will comprise Turks and TCs (or Greeks and GCs) to somehow co-ordinate policies in the same fashion as the current "TRNC" - whereas according to the Annan Plan, the two constituent states should mostly be co-ordinating with each other rather than with outsiders. Again, such issues would strongly affect minority GCs living in the north, and vice verca.

Hmmm... Is this really possible? How might such extra-constitutional ruling bodies be set up in the north, or even in the south if the Federal and State Constitutions have explicit provisions, measures against such formations?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Insan, I think Cypriots are used to extra-constitutional bodies ... it won't actually be a great step to create some more. As for the TC side, all they have to do is maintain the current ruling assemply of TC President, TC Prime minister, TC Foreign Minister, Turkish Ambassador and Turkish Chief of Armed Forces in Cyprus - which is where most decisions in the north are taken nowadays. What explicit provision does the Annan Plan make to ensure that this assembly will be dismantled? And if it does not get dismantled, will anybody actually be punished for it?

Just another of the numerous implementation issues in the Annan Plan ...

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[insan]

As for the TC side, all they have to do is maintain the current ruling assemply of TC President, TC Prime minister, TC Foreign Minister, Turkish Ambassador and Turkish Chief of Armed Forces in Cyprus - which is where most decisions in the north are taken nowadays. What explicit provision does the Annan Plan make to ensure that this assembly will be dismantled? And if it does not get dismantled, will anybody actually be punished for it?

It is true that the ruling elite of North has always been in consultation with the ruling elite of Turkey. They usually have agreed upon a common startegy and policy concerning Cyprus problem. Also, there have been times that the Turkish ruling elite imposed its own will upon TC ruling elite about some issues, such as forcing Denktash to go Newyork to sign the UN draft proposal, in 1987.

Security is the profession of military experts. Delivery of opinions by Turkish Generals concerning the Cyprus issue is not extraordinary, imo. TCs themselves wanted to share the authority of decision making with the government and security forces of Turkey; as a consequence of the events of last 50 years.

TC's complaints to Turkey usually have arouse from the joint, wrong socio-economic policies of TC and Turkish ruling elites.

If Turkey has had a strong, developed economy only complaint of TCs about TC and Turkish ruling elite would be the solution of the Cyprus problem in order to get rid of the uncertainity of the future. For majority of TCs one of the most disturbing issue of Cyprus problem is that they still are not considered as the legal owner the properties they have been occupying for more than 30 years. If Turkey has been a prosperous country, even travelling with a Turkish passport wouldn't be problem for them as long as they have not faced economical and free movement difficulties.

Obstacles in front of communal representation in international activities is also another most disturbing issue for TCs. Even they have had a prosperous life in North, they still would want a solution to Cyprus problem in order to remove the obstacles in front of the communal representation of TCs, in international activities.


As a consequence of bad management of politicians, majority of TCs don't trust politicians on all issues. That's why majority of TCs want guarantorship of Turkey and do not feel disturbance because of the opinions/interference of Turkish Generals.


When the Greco-Turco/GC-TC relations/wars/conflicts and decades lasted bad management of TC/Turkish politicians have taken into consideration; the TC mentality regarding the solution of Cyprus problem, clearly reveals itself and I believe that their mentality as a product of "others"; contains many justifiable aspects. Their mentality concerning the security issues may be opposite of the GC's menatlity. It might be dreagotary for international laws etc but it is a fact, it's not an excuse.


In the end, I'll repeat something I've emphasized before... Economic embargos imposed upon TCs didn't solve the Cyprus problem and won't solve. To the contrary of this, the economic embargos has worsened the circumstances of the solution. It caused majority of TCs to feel more hatred, fears towards the GCs and Greeks. And I repeat it once again, if the TC community has had the most prosperous economic standards of the world; they would still want to solve the problem.

[Saint Jimmy]

See you at the Greek Kalendes!

Excellent expression!
Respect.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Why don’t you ask your lawyer friend who had told you the above paragraph that you have mentioned, about the issue of voting in the senate along the ethnic lines and its suitability to ECHR and/or EU law?

Great Idea, Turkcyp! Will do!