Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

mikkie, magikthrill and all other GCs of the forum... Are you against the return of properties and refugees as it is envisaged in Annan 5 or you are against the temporary and permenant restrictions on right to settlement and buy property as it is envisaged in Annan 5?


What are your objections?

You want more properties and refugees to return than what the Annan 5 envisages? How much more? Are you against the internal citizenship provisions of annan Plan? What's your proposal?

Theorically, Annan Plan does not create two ethnically pure states. It creates one almost ethnically pure GC state besides one ethnically mixed TC state.

[Agios Amvrosios]

Dear Erolz,

"the right to self determination" of a minority of 18% ,as a basis for institutionalizing ethnic cleansing does not constitute a universal legal right.

How is Cyprus different to any other multicultural country with ethnic minorities? A bit of biffo is natural here and there, but it does not form a legal basis for ethnic cleansing does it?

Your daddy wasted alot of money on your education if you are still fanatically devoted to these Denktashims.

Cheers Big Ears.

[magikthrill]

mikkie, magikthrill and all other GCs of the forum... Are you against the return of properties and refugees as it is envisaged in Annan 5 or you are against the temporary and permenant restrictions on right to settlement and buy property as it is envisaged in Annan 5?


What are your objections?

You want more properties and refugees to return than what the Annan 5 envisages? How much more? Are you against the internal citizenship provisions of annan Plan? What's your proposal?

Theorically, Annan Plan does not create two ethnically pure states. It creates one almost ethnically pure GC state besides one ethnically mixed TC state.

insan,

you make it sound, like by allowing SOME GCs to get their property back youre already doing them a favor.

its not like that. all refugees should be allowed to return to their homes. end of story.

[erolz]

Dear Erolz,

"the right to self determination" of a minority of 18% ,as a basis for institutionalizing ethnic cleansing does not constitute a universal legal right.

Well I hope your daddy is not expecting much for what he paid on your education - for the value seem poor if you stick to these makariosisms (or perhaps sampsonisms would be more accurate in your case). Go and read the declarations on human rights in regard to peoples. It might help you understand though I doubt it. The universal right to self determination for a people is not a right to ehtnic cleasning. It is right to resist dominace and control by those that would subjegate you as a people and try to ethnicaly cleanse you from your homeland - as GC tried to do to TC in the past - before they were stopped from doing so by Turkey.

How is Cyprus different to any other multicultural country with ethnic minorities? A bit of biffo is natural here and there, but it does not form a legal basis for ethnic cleansing does it?

TC are Cypriot. Cyprus is our homeland, the place of our birth (in most cases) our fathers birth, our fathers fathers birth, our fathers fathers fathers birth, our fathers fathers fathers fathers birth and on. To say we are no different from Cypriots linving in Australia or Turks living in UK is just ridiculous.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Your daddy wasted alot of money on your education if you are still fanatically devoted to these Denktashims.

Agios Amvrosios,

you are still new to this forum so I can understand that you are not aware of all the rules yet, but personal insults like the one you made above are not really welcome here.

[Saint Jimmy]

I can understand that you are not aware of all the rules yet

My guess is he is. Let's hope our mods ain't blind. Cheers!

[Alexandros Lordos]

mikkie, magikthrill and all other GCs of the forum... Are you against the return of properties and refugees as it is envisaged in Annan 5 or you are against the temporary and permenant restrictions on right to settlement and buy property as it is envisaged in Annan 5?

What are your objections?

Insan, speaking for myself, I would say that what is unacceptable in Annan 5 is the arbitrary 1/3 limitation to how much of his property one may reclaim. If current occupants are protected anyway, then the original GC owner should be able to claim all of his remaining property.

As to right to settlement, I am against the extremely strict timetables in the plan - 1% the first year, 2% the second year and so on, but I accept the permanent limitation that GCs may only form 33% of the TC constituent state.

As for the right to buy property, I am against the strict restrictions in the Annan Plan because I don't think they really protect the TCs, and they put a stop to those GCs who would have liked to live amongst TCs in the north even though they are not refugees.

In the place of the current 15 year absolute ban to purchase property in the north, I think there should be a "filter" for the first fifteen years as follows:

- for corporations, a GC company should be able to invest in the north so long as at least 30% of its shareholders are TCs. This provision will help raise the standard of living amongst TCs, encourage co-operation between GCs and TCs, and will be seen by GCs as limiting the violation of basic freedoms. So, it would be a popular improvement all-round.

- for private individuals, each family (ie husband, wife and under-age descendants) should have the right to purchase up to one plot of land or one house, if they so wish and if they do not already own such a plot or house in the north. This will again be a boom for the building industry in the north, as many GCs will choose to build holiday homes in the north, or even working-week homes in the case where a GC gets a job in let's say Kyrenia. Through such an amendment, closer co-existence between GCs and TCs would be fostered.

Both the above, of course, would only apply for the first fifteen years: After that, free market economics should fully apply, as per the Annan Plan.

[-mikkie2-]

I am in broad agreement with Alex. What rubs me though is that the limitations proposed in the plan is the restriction of freedom of movement and settlement in order to givethis perceieved political equality.

My view (and I guess this is what I was trying to put across) is there should be no component state citizenship and as a consequence there should be no restrictions as to where people should choose to live. The senate could still be split 50:50 between TC and GC without the need for this ridiculous citizenship status. What is the point? It only fosters division. Doing away with it means that people are free to settle where they want and their individual rights are not compromised yet political equality is maintained.

If some restrictions need to be put in place for an initial period then fine. In a roundabout sort of way Alex is saying the same thing because the restrictions placed are in order to maintain an artificial bizonality which as a consequence restricts the rights of all people.

[Alexandros Lordos]

My view (and I guess this is what I was trying to put across) is there should be no component state citizenship and as a consequence there should be no restrictions as to where people should choose to live. The senate could still be split 50:50 between TC and GC without the need for this ridiculous citizenship status. What is the point? It only fosters division. Doing away with it means that people are free to settle where they want and their individual rights are not compromised yet political equality is maintained.

Mikkie,

the problem here is one of governance structure: We are either going to have: a) A unified central administration and nothing else, or b) A federal government plus two local "state" governments. The issue of internal citizenship gets wrapped up in this, because if you are going to have state governments as well as a central government, you need a way to work out who will vote in each state, and furthermore you need a way to guarantee that the majority of voters in each state will be from the equivalent ethnicity. Conclusion: The Annan Plan provisions.

Personally, I would much have preferred what you are suggesting, that we do away with internal citizenships, constituent state governments, and residence limitations - to replace all that with a bicommunal unitary state. This would be more humane, simpler to operate, with no minorities being formed in north or south, and with better prospects for long term stability.

However, doing this would involve a complete departure from everything that the two sides have been discussing since 1977. We would have to begin again from scratch, and I doubt that the political will for something like this is likely to emerge. So, we will have to go for the best we can do now, which is a Federation with as little seperatist elements as possible - and maybe we can have a constitutional assembly twenty years later to see if both communities would prefer to change back to a Unitary State ...

[PEACE]

As for the right to buy property, I am against the strict restrictions in the Annan Plan because I don't think they really protect the TCs, and they put a stop to those GCs who would have liked to live amongst TCs in the north even though they are not refugees.

Dear Alexandros,
Yes,it is protecting us.Let me tell how.
In 1960s Gcs were buying TC's properties by offering high prices for it.
Many economically bad TCs sold their properties and with the help of the Gcs they sent to out of Cyprus to live.Now our economy and GC economy is so unbalanced.So Gcs can buy TC properties by offering even ten times more price of the property to buy them.This is not a problem for economically good Gcs.As the time passes by TC properties on island could decrease in a horrifying ratio!

What do you do if a person comes and offers you to give you four or five times more money than the price of your house?May be you don't sell but many can!


In the whole discussion i see that many wants to return back instead of getting compensation.But this can't be! Some will return and some have to get compensation to protect our rights.


Turkish Cypriot Constituent State won't be a pure state.As i said before...
Some will return and left will get compensation for their properties.

Returning of refugees as whole is impossible.Because:
1)Who can cover the expenses of building new houses,cities that will carried Tcs go? If some gc refugees return and some get compensation this will be less expensive.

2)TCs can't return to their homes because they are all ruined in south.Also some need new houses,new center of populations.
So you can't say them to empty houses immediately.So this needs the graded returning of refugees.


3)We can't be sure that all GCs won't return back and harm to solution base.If all will return back to north this is possible for me but in that situation we need political restrictions.


4) Returning restrictions is not only for GCs! Its for TCs also.Some TCs won't be able to return but they will get compensation.TC refugees are in the same situation with Gc refugees.