Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Does not seem as if anyone is interested which ever way you look at it Kiks so maybe I can stir some interest with a comment on item one.

1. Remove all checkpoints. No longer needed to show any ID to go back and forth between the North and the South.

We already have conflict over weather or not Turkey should be there so you saying the removal of the checkpoints just like that soes not work. There are many many things I am sure the GCs will want removed as well as. I will start with the flags for a start and that bloody marvalously big one on the mountains. Can anyone thing else?????

Zan,

I was not even thinking of Turkey regarding the check points. We are only talking about the 5-6 crossings and not the elimination of the "Green Line". Besides, haven't you been telling us, that the TC's are the ones the RoC should be dealing with and not Turkey. So once an agreement has been reached between the TC's and The GC's, you can tell Turkey to mind their own business.

Turkish Troops can remain in their Military camps until they are all dispatched back to Turkey within the 10 years.

As for the "Graffiti Mountain", yes, that would be a very good gesture to bring those Flags down and plant Cypress Trees in their places instead.


Building confidence between the TC's and the GC's will need all the things I've mentioned above to happen right away, otherwise the RoC will also hold back on few of the things that the TC's want right away, ie. Direct Trade and Flights and the removal of all the embargoes.

There ya go...... You are now fully in Mr Annans' shoes and you will have to deal with these issues one by one. I will not bring down the TUrkish flags until the embargoes are lifted what do the GCs have to say about that.

Whispers(Do you think we will draw in any more people Kiks)

[DT.]

Does not seem as if anyone is interested which ever way you look at it Kiks so maybe I can stir some interest with a comment on item one.

1. Remove all checkpoints. No longer needed to show any ID to go back and forth between the North and the South.

We already have conflict over weather or not Turkey should be there so you saying the removal of the checkpoints just like that soes not work. There are many many things I am sure the GCs will want removed as well as. I will start with the flags for a start and that bloody marvalously big one on the mountains. Can anyone thing else?????

Zan,

I was not even thinking of Turkey regarding the check points. We are only talking about the 5-6 crossings and not the elimination of the "Green Line". Besides, haven't you been telling us, that the TC's are the ones the RoC should be dealing with and not Turkey. So once an agreement has been reached between the TC's and The GC's, you can tell Turkey to mind their own business.

Turkish Troops can remain in their Military camps until they are all dispatched back to Turkey within the 10 years.

As for the "Graffiti Mountain", yes, that would be a very good gesture to bring those Flags down and plant Cypress Trees in their places instead.


Building confidence between the TC's and the GC's will need all the things I've mentioned above to happen right away, otherwise the RoC will also hold back on few of the things that the TC's want right away, ie. Direct Trade and Flights and the removal of all the embargoes.

There ya go...... You are now fully in Mr Annans' shoes and you will have to deal with these issues one by one. I will not bring down the TUrkish flags until the embargoes are lifted what do the GCs have to say about that.

Whispers(Do you think we will draw in any more people Kiks)

%^()(*&%$ and screw you and 8()_^%^@#@# why you little %$$#%^ i hate your guts....who the hell made you.......its all your side's fault..........WHats the point of discussing this....

God damn it....feels good.

[zan]

Does not seem as if anyone is interested which ever way you look at it Kiks so maybe I can stir some interest with a comment on item one.

1. Remove all checkpoints. No longer needed to show any ID to go back and forth between the North and the South.

We already have conflict over weather or not Turkey should be there so you saying the removal of the checkpoints just like that soes not work. There are many many things I am sure the GCs will want removed as well as. I will start with the flags for a start and that bloody marvalously big one on the mountains. Can anyone thing else?????

Zan,

I was not even thinking of Turkey regarding the check points. We are only talking about the 5-6 crossings and not the elimination of the "Green Line". Besides, haven't you been telling us, that the TC's are the ones the RoC should be dealing with and not Turkey. So once an agreement has been reached between the TC's and The GC's, you can tell Turkey to mind their own business.

Turkish Troops can remain in their Military camps until they are all dispatched back to Turkey within the 10 years.

As for the "Graffiti Mountain", yes, that would be a very good gesture to bring those Flags down and plant Cypress Trees in their places instead.


Building confidence between the TC's and the GC's will need all the things I've mentioned above to happen right away, otherwise the RoC will also hold back on few of the things that the TC's want right away, ie. Direct Trade and Flights and the removal of all the embargoes.

There ya go...... You are now fully in Mr Annans' shoes and you will have to deal with these issues one by one. I will not bring down the TUrkish flags until the embargoes are lifted what do the GCs have to say about that.

Whispers(Do you think we will draw in any more people Kiks)

%^()(*&%$ and screw you and 8()_^%^@#@# why you little %$$#%^ i hate your guts....who the hell made you.......its all your side's fault..........WHats the point of discussing this....

God damn it....feels good.

And Relax....

[Kikapu]

There ya go...... You are now fully in Mr Annans' shoes and you will have to deal with these issues one by one. I will not bring down the TUrkish flags until the embargoes are lifted what do the GCs have to say about that.

Whispers(Do you think we will draw in any more people Kiks)

Zan,

You are disappointing me with lack of any enthusiasm from yourself towards peace. I have expected more from you as to how we can push this forward, but instead you are asking the GC's about the flags. I'm going to go on a limb here and say that, the GC's would like to see those flags come down. That was just a wild guess on my part, as to what they would say. I could be wrong however. What do you think Zan.???

Points made from 1-9 needs to be met by both sides right away, but you are still talking about removal of the embargoes before the flags come down, when in fact, it is already in the works from day one.

Here they are for you to read them again Zan.

All these events then need to be activated right away, in order to show that both sides are on their way to a Federal System.

1. Remove all checkpoints. No longer needed to show any ID to go back and forth between the North and the South.

2. All non Cypriots who are in the country will need to Register with the RoC. 2007 will be the cut off date for all those immigrants that are already in the country. All new arrivals will need to apply to the RoC first, before arrival.

3. RoC will have full control of it's borders to be able to control immigration, but these duties will be performed by the TC's in the North and GC's in the South until 2017.

4. The North will have Direct Trade and Flights to bring their economy up to par "leveling the playing field".

5. Turkish Troops and Greek Troops and their equipment start withdrawing from the island 10% each year for the next 10 years. For the TT, it will be 4,000 a year based on 40,000 and 1,000 GT based on 10,000. By year 2017, all foreign troops are gone.

6. All mine fields are cleared up by both sides.

7. Replace the Lira with the Cyprus Pound followed by the Euro.

8. Continue with the present political arrangement as it is now with both sides having their elected leaders until 2017. In 2017 there are no longer RoC or "TRNC".

9. All construction on GC land will stop and preserved to be returned back to its owners in the next 10 years. Those who bought GC land, will lose their rights to keep them. They can be reimbursed by a funds set up by the UN, on what they actually paid for the land, plus interest. Those who built homes or businesses on GC land, will have the option to buy the land from the GC owners at the market rate at that time, or else they can sell their house or businesses built on GC land, to the GC's. The TC's must be given the option to buy the land first from the original GC owners and cannot be forced out if they have a house or a business already built on it. Same will apply in the South. Then in the next 10 years, those GC's and TC's who wish to move back to their villages of before 1974, should be made possible and re united with their property.

Give it another go will you, Zan.!

[zan]

There ya go...... You are now fully in Mr Annans' shoes and you will have to deal with these issues one by one. I will not bring down the TUrkish flags until the embargoes are lifted what do the GCs have to say about that.

Whispers(Do you think we will draw in any more people Kiks)

Zan,

You are disappointing me with lack of any enthusiasm from yourself towards peace. I have expected more from you as to how we can push this forward, but instead you are asking the GC's about the flags. I'm going to go on a limb here and say that, the GC's would like to see those flags come down. That was just a wild guess on my part, as to what they would say. I could be wrong however. What do you think Zan.???

Points made from 1-9 needs to be met by both sides right away, but you are still talking about removal of the embargoes before the flags come down, when in fact, it is already in the works from day one.

Here they are for you to read them again Zan.

All these events then need to be activated right away, in order to show that both sides are on their way to a Federal System.

1. Remove all checkpoints. No longer needed to show any ID to go back and forth between the North and the South.

2. All non Cypriots who are in the country will need to Register with the RoC. 2007 will be the cut off date for all those immigrants that are already in the country. All new arrivals will need to apply to the RoC first, before arrival.

3. RoC will have full control of it's borders to be able to control immigration, but these duties will be performed by the TC's in the North and GC's in the South until 2017.

4. The North will have Direct Trade and Flights to bring their economy up to par "leveling the playing field".

5. Turkish Troops and Greek Troops and their equipment start withdrawing from the island 10% each year for the next 10 years. For the TT, it will be 4,000 a year based on 40,000 and 1,000 GT based on 10,000. By year 2017, all foreign troops are gone.

6. All mine fields are cleared up by both sides.

7. Replace the Lira with the Cyprus Pound followed by the Euro.

8. Continue with the present political arrangement as it is now with both sides having their elected leaders until 2017. In 2017 there are no longer RoC or "TRNC".

9. All construction on GC land will stop and preserved to be returned back to its owners in the next 10 years. Those who bought GC land, will lose their rights to keep them. They can be reimbursed by a funds set up by the UN, on what they actually paid for the land, plus interest. Those who built homes or businesses on GC land, will have the option to buy the land from the GC owners at the market rate at that time, or else they can sell their house or businesses built on GC land, to the GC's. The TC's must be given the option to buy the land first from the original GC owners and cannot be forced out if they have a house or a business already built on it. Same will apply in the South. Then in the next 10 years, those GC's and TC's who wish to move back to their villages of before 1974, should be made possible and re united with their property.

Give it another go will you, Zan.!

I wasn't just being flippant Kikapu but was trying to make a point. How many pages was the Annan plan?


Here is what I really think of your idea. In principle, as is the case with all well-meaning plans, it is great. The real situation is it is simplistic even to my untrained eye. I made the point about the number of pages in the Annan plan and they are there for a reason. It boils down to the same reasons that the EU tried to define each and every item, law and instruction in the greater EU. The fuss that had people swearing at the EU for trying to define what a banana was. On paper it looked right to define what a banana is and by that I mean its shape size and colour, I don't know if they tried the foolish task of trying to define taste but I would not be surprised. I hope you get what I mean because I do not want to go on about bananas.

My point again is that just by putting up ten or twenty points will not solve the problem and there are thousands more that people are thinking of and I believe that that is the reason why no one is showing any interest.


My point about the flags is a very serious one as well. Do you think that the political wars will stop with the application of your plan? Every day we will face the unsettled onslaught of political fighting and those that do want to disrupt the "peace process", will have the open borders in which to carry out their dirty trade. Sorry mate but if life has not taught you that things can go wrong and you cannot allow such situations to get out of hand then I am afraid I cannot help you. Just think for a minute how the guy on the street is going to feel when he has opened his heart to a settled Cyprus and every day brings if not bloodshed, then political uncertainty. With every backward step we take after the implementation of your plan then we will be set back ten years in negotiations.
I know you are going to say that I am just being negative about it all but I am a deep thinker and I have to make sure that most if not all of the angles are covered. Your plan does not even come close. I hope you can take this criticism with the right frame of mind.

[Kikapu]

I wasn't just being flippant Kikapu but was trying to make a point. How many pages was the Annan plan?


Here is what I really think of your idea. In principle, as is the case with all well-meaning plans, it is great. The real situation is it is simplistic even to my untrained eye. I made the point about the number of pages in the Annan plan and they are there for a reason. It boils down to the same reasons that the EU tried to define each and every item, law and instruction in the greater EU. The fuss that had people swearing at the EU for trying to define what a banana was. On paper it looked right to define what a banana is and by that I mean its shape size and colour, I don't know if they tried the foolish task of trying to define taste but I would not be surprised. I hope you get what I mean because I do not want to go on about bananas.

My point again is that just by putting up ten or twenty points will not solve the problem and there are thousands more that people are thinking of and I believe that that is the reason why no one is showing any interest.


My point about the flags is a very serious one as well. Do you think that the political wars will stop with the application of your plan? Every day we will face the unsettled onslaught of political fighting and those that do want to disrupt the "peace process", will have the open borders in which to carry out their dirty trade. Sorry mate but if life has not taught you that things can go wrong and you cannot allow such situations to get out of hand then I am afraid I cannot help you. Just think for a minute how the guy on the street is going to feel when he has opened his heart to a settled Cyprus and every day brings if not bloodshed, then political uncertainty. With every backward step we take after the implementation of your plan then we will be set back ten years in negotiations.
I know you are going to say that I am just being negative about it all but I am a deep thinker and I have to make sure that most if not all of the angles are covered. Your plan does not even come close. I hope you can take this criticism with the right frame of mind.

Zan,

Don't worry, I do not take your criticism in a negative way. In fact, I welcome it.

My proposal was to get us going from "here to there" within 10 years, and it was not meant to compete with the AP. The reason why my plan is "simplistic", is because I did not write the Constitution for the Federal State and the Two States. That is to come after 5 years of working together to build trust and then work on it for another 2 years, before moving on to complete the Two State Constitutions. That's where the "rubber will meet the road" when it comes to details, that the details will be put in by both sides and then approved / disapproved by the People in a referendum.

Did you know that the original American Constitution was only one page long. Granted, it was a large page, but one page all the same. Something to think about. Simplicity has it's advantages sometimes.


Here is the American Constitution and the 27 Amendments since it was written over 200 years ago.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/fac ... nsteng.htm

[zan]

I wasn't just being flippant Kikapu but was trying to make a point. How many pages was the Annan plan?


Here is what I really think of your idea. In principle, as is the case with all well-meaning plans, it is great. The real situation is it is simplistic even to my untrained eye. I made the point about the number of pages in the Annan plan and they are there for a reason. It boils down to the same reasons that the EU tried to define each and every item, law and instruction in the greater EU. The fuss that had people swearing at the EU for trying to define what a banana was. On paper it looked right to define what a banana is and by that I mean its shape size and colour, I don't know if they tried the foolish task of trying to define taste but I would not be surprised. I hope you get what I mean because I do not want to go on about bananas.

My point again is that just by putting up ten or twenty points will not solve the problem and there are thousands more that people are thinking of and I believe that that is the reason why no one is showing any interest.


My point about the flags is a very serious one as well. Do you think that the political wars will stop with the application of your plan? Every day we will face the unsettled onslaught of political fighting and those that do want to disrupt the "peace process", will have the open borders in which to carry out their dirty trade. Sorry mate but if life has not taught you that things can go wrong and you cannot allow such situations to get out of hand then I am afraid I cannot help you. Just think for a minute how the guy on the street is going to feel when he has opened his heart to a settled Cyprus and every day brings if not bloodshed, then political uncertainty. With every backward step we take after the implementation of your plan then we will be set back ten years in negotiations.
I know you are going to say that I am just being negative about it all but I am a deep thinker and I have to make sure that most if not all of the angles are covered. Your plan does not even come close. I hope you can take this criticism with the right frame of mind.

Zan,

Don't worry, I do not take your criticism in a negative way. In fact, I welcome it.

My proposal was to get us going from "here to there" within 10 years, and it was not meant to compete with the AP. The reason why my plan is "simplistic", is because I did not write the Constitution for the Federal State and the Two States. That is to come after 5 years of working together to build trust and then work on it for another 2 years, before moving on to complete the Two State Constitutions. That's where the "rubber will meet the road" when it comes to details, that the details will be put in by both sides and then approved / disapproved by the People in a referendum.

Did you know that the original American Constitution was only one page long. Granted, it was a large page, but one page all the same. Something to think about. Simplicity has it's advantages sometimes.


Here is the American Constitution and the 27 Amendments since it was written over 200 years ago.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/fac ... nsteng.htm

Thanks for that Kiks but I have shown that in my mind we have stumbled at the very first point so what next.???


Let me give you an even simpler example of what I think will work. I have always said that the one thing that will over ride any political settlement is good old commerce. This will involve trust at the beginning but I think it will be more acceptable. Partnerships in business should be encouraged by both sides. This should be an active policy from a government level but it will involve the opening of air and seaports to be managed by the TCs in the north etc...... This will give the North a chance to get the level playing field that we so very much need in order to progress. Buisness will not listen to borders and wherever there is money to be made then they will be there.


Sorry I have to go now but chew on that for a while and let me know what you think.

[Kikapu]

Thanks for that Kiks but I have shown that in my mind we have stumbled at the very first point so what next.???


Let me give you an even simpler example of what I think will work. I have always said that the one thing that will over ride any political settlement is good old commerce. This will involve trust at the beginning but I think it will be more acceptable. Partnerships in business should be encouraged by both sides. This should be an active policy from a government level but it will involve the opening of air and seaports to be managed by the TCs in the north etc...... This will give the North a chance to get the level playing field that we so very much need in order to progress. Buisness will not listen to borders and wherever there is money to be made then they will be there.


Sorry I have to go now but chew on that for a while and let me know what you think.

Zan,

Are you trying to make excuses or what. I have already allowed for the Ports and Free Trade to start from day one for the TC's in the North, so that the playing field is "really leveled" for the next TEN years before the "NEW CYPRUS" starts for business.

Zan, I'm trying to put together something that will be accepted by both sides and not only to us. That's how partnership works in business or did you want the GC's to be a "silent partner". You need to get your head out of the Annan Plan to see something what I've proposed to take root, or else it will not, just like AP hadn't.

Do you at least like Kifeas's Power Sharing Plan.??

[zan]

Thanks for that Kiks but I have shown that in my mind we have stumbled at the very first point so what next.???


Let me give you an even simpler example of what I think will work. I have always said that the one thing that will over ride any political settlement is good old commerce. This will involve trust at the beginning but I think it will be more acceptable. Partnerships in business should be encouraged by both sides. This should be an active policy from a government level but it will involve the opening of air and seaports to be managed by the TCs in the north etc...... This will give the North a chance to get the level playing field that we so very much need in order to progress. Buisness will not listen to borders and wherever there is money to be made then they will be there.


Sorry I have to go now but chew on that for a while and let me know what you think.

Zan,

Are you trying to make excuses or what. I have already allowed for the Ports and Free Trade to start from day one for the TC's in the North, so that the playing field is "really leveled" for the next TEN years before the "NEW CYPRUS" starts for business.

Zan, I'm trying to put together something that will be accepted by both sides and not only to us. That's how partnership works in business or did you want the GC's to be a "silent partner". You need to get your head out of the Annan Plan to see something what I've proposed to take root, or else it will not, just like AP hadn't.

Do you at least like Kifeas's Power Sharing Plan.??

Don't understand what you are getting excited about? I did not say anything different about what you had already allowed for just added the partnership??????????

I want to take out as much political interference as possible and that is why I have mentioned business. There is of course the sticking point of who will supply the necessary documentation for the ports and that is a big problem. Power sharing does not come into it if the certificates are in control of the "RoC'.

Kiks..The whole point of this exercise is to see where the problems lye and if you are going to fly off the handle every time I point out a difficulty or a sticking point then why not just stop this here and your proposal can be given the name of an ultimatum and not a proposal. I have told you before that I am not qualified to discuss these things with any real authority but I have the vision to see some problems with your ideas. I am more than willing to hear your explanation of the solutions to the problems but I will not listen to you keep accusing me of trying to undermine your work. If you are not prepared to listen to the "what ifs" then lets call it a day.

[Kikapu]

Thanks for that Kiks but I have shown that in my mind we have stumbled at the very first point so what next.???


Let me give you an even simpler example of what I think will work. I have always said that the one thing that will over ride any political settlement is good old commerce. This will involve trust at the beginning but I think it will be more acceptable. Partnerships in business should be encouraged by both sides. This should be an active policy from a government level but it will involve the opening of air and seaports to be managed by the TCs in the north etc...... This will give the North a chance to get the level playing field that we so very much need in order to progress. Buisness will not listen to borders and wherever there is money to be made then they will be there.


Sorry I have to go now but chew on that for a while and let me know what you think.

Zan,

Are you trying to make excuses or what. I have already allowed for the Ports and Free Trade to start from day one for the TC's in the North, so that the playing field is "really leveled" for the next TEN years before the "NEW CYPRUS" starts for business.

Zan, I'm trying to put together something that will be accepted by both sides and not only to us. That's how partnership works in business or did you want the GC's to be a "silent partner". You need to get your head out of the Annan Plan to see something what I've proposed to take root, or else it will not, just like AP hadn't.

Do you at least like Kifeas's Power Sharing Plan.??

Don't understand what you are getting excited about? I did not say anything different about what you had already allowed for just added the partnership??????????

I want to take out as much political interference as possible and that is why I have mentioned business. There is of course the sticking point of who will supply the necessary documentation for the ports and that is a big problem. Power sharing does not come into it if the certificates are in control of the "RoC'.

Kiks..The whole point of this exercise is to see where the problems lye and if you are going to fly off the handle every time I point out a difficulty or a sticking point then why not just stop this here and your proposal can be given the name of an ultimatum and not a proposal. I have told you before that I am not qualified to discuss these things with any real authority but I have the vision to see some problems with your ideas. I am more than willing to hear your explanation of the solutions to the problems but I will not listen to you keep accusing me of trying to undermine your work. If you are not prepared to listen to the "what ifs" then lets call it a day.

OK, I'll try to be more understanding and "hang loose", as they say in Hawaii.