Cyprus-Forum.com

[Greek Cypriot]

The biggest enemy of both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots is nobody else from Turkey itself.

With their propaganda, the Turkish settlers and their army can control TC leadership and unfortunately TC minds also.

Turkey believes that having troops want something in Cyprus is important for some geopolitical reasons. It does not care about the well being of Turkish Cypriots and it does not want a total peace in Cyprus since this would mean their tropps would not be needed here anymore.

And guess who else have similar interests? The British, which can be considered as an extension of the Americans. Non of them wants an absolute peace in Cyprus. They don't want war, but they fragile that will secure their armies in Cyprus and their interests forever.

The constitution of 1960 was fragile (and it broke), the current "cease fire" situation is fragile, and the Annan plan creates yet another fragile ubnormal situation that serves perfectly their interests.

Can small Cyprus get rid of the interests of all those? Probably not. But I hope at least TC will realize who their real enemy is. This way maybe we can atleast create something better and less fragile.

[metecyp]

Can small Cyprus get rid of the interests of all those? Probably not. But I hope at least TC will realize who their real enemy is. This way maybe we can atleast create something better and less fragile.

Even if we accept that Turkey is the real enemy (I have serious issues about this), you should ask yourself "Are T/Cs blind? Why don't they see their real enemy?" And in trying to answer that question, you'll realize that the reason why T/Cs still see Turkey as their savior is the attitute of G/Cs toward T/Cs.

T/Cs are not happy about policies of Turkey on the island. T/Cs are not happy about mainland TUrks replacing their population in the north. T/Cs are not happy the low economic level of the north. However, when a T/C woman is turned away from Larnaca airport (Gulsen Sah) just because she is a T/C, or when a T/C sees the sign of "Never trust a Turk" in a Limassol Zoo, or when we see people like Papas in this forum still defending Enosis, and talking about majority ruling, completely ignoring the minority, then T/Cs feel the need to be protected.

Nobody feels the need to be protected if he doesn't feel no danger. And nobody feels no danger, if somebody does not create a dangerous (or seemingly dangerous) situation. See it's hard to build trust because one stupid act can ruin the whole work in building trust. That's why we need to constantly work on building trust, and that's why we shouldn't let anybody ruin our future by creating mistrust.

[Greek Cypriot]

you'll realize that the reason why T/Cs still see Turkey as their savior is the attitute of G/Cs toward T/Cs.

1) You should also understand that it is natural for some GC not to feel very nice about some TC since their homes and properties are now occupied. Still, now that the "borders" opened you can see yourself that there is nothing that TC should fear. Persoanally I was suprised on how well GC reacted when they went to the occupied areas and found others living in their homes. It also suprised me how well most TC welcomed GC to those homes, showing to them that they do not consider those houses as their own but just a temporary condition.

2) We have democracy and freedom of speach and everybody is free to say what he/she wants as long as he/she respects the laws of the state. Yes, we have a very small minority of super nationalists. What do you want from us to do? Kill them? Let them say whatever they want. If they try to act in some unlawful way they will be punished in an analogous way.

Taking some sporadic insitents and using them to create an impression for a whole community is called propaganda. And you shouldn't fall for it!
(this is why i said that Turkey controls the minds of TC).

[metecyp]

Persoanally I was suprised on how well GC reacted when they went to the occupied areas and found others living in their homes. It also suprised me how well most TC welcomed GC to those homes, showing to them that they do not consider those houses as their own but just a temporary condition.

I was surprised as well. I thought there would be some bad incidents where a G/C goes to visit his/her home. But people acted in a mature manner which showed to the whole world that the claim that G/C and T/C cannot live together is not true. We got rid of this false claim by visiting each other's side without a perfect solution.

If, for example, G/Cs listened the RC goverment and not visit the north until "the occupation is over", there wouldn't be any progress and the claim that G/Cs and T/Cs cannot live together would still be there. So sometimes it's better not to wait for a perfect solution, and act now.

Taking some sporadic insitents and using them to create an impression for a whole community is called propaganda. And you shouldn't fall for it!

While you're asking T/Cs not to fall into propaganda, you should ask from your side not to create material for propaganda. And you should also stop the propaganda (especially in schools) on your side, and tell people the whole story of Cyprus starting from 1960s, not just from 1974.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should help each other because whether we want or not, two sides are linked. If you do something bad & stupid on your side, it has an effect on our side, if we have propagando on our side, then it effects your side as well. And the only way to get out of this loop is to help each other and show some sensitivity towards each other.

[markou96]

Metacyp, speaking about propaganda and the monstrous behavior of the G/Cs, I would like to point to you a little incident that took place in the summer of 1996. It also took the lives of Solomou and Isaac. So please, when you say "well there was a sign on a zoo" also say, "well we bashed his brains in" and when you say "well she went to the airport..." you should also say "well we ridilled his body with bullets...oh, our minister was shooting at him too!!!"

All these are pointless...I'm confident that the woman was turned away because of some sort of legality and not because of her ethnicity. I'm not aware of the story (probably happened a long time ago) but our government has always been careful of such dealings.

If you could... tell us your side of the story, starting from the 60's. Maybe it would help us understand you and your claims better.

[metecyp]

Metacyp, speaking about propaganda and the monstrous behavior of the G/Cs, I would like to point to you a little incident that took place in the summer of 1996.

I never said that T/Cs are angels and G/Cs are monsters. Read my posts again, and you'll see that I always say "we are both responsible". The reason why I pointed out such incidents committed by G/Cs is to show you that you are not angels either.

Now, about 1996 incidents, the whole thing from start to finish was wrong. That G/C guy should have never tried to climb up to get the Turkish flag down. Similarly, it was not necessary to shoot him in order to stop him from getting the Turkish flag, he could have simply be arrested. Once again, I don't agree with the whole incident from start to end.

By the way, the woman's story happenned just last summer, not too long ago.

To sum up, I'm ready to accept the faults of my side, starting from 1950s. But you have to be ready to accept the faults of your side as well, starting from 1950s. The problem is most G/Cs see Cyprus problem as an invasion problem that started in 1974, and they never try to analyze what happenned before 1974 that brought us here today.

[Piratis]

To sum up, I'm ready to accept the faults of my side, starting from 1950s. But you have to be ready to accept the faults of your side as well, starting from 1950s.

We did accept the faults of our side long time ago. All Cyprus and Greek governments condemn the coup and the actions of EOKA-B and we accepted all other mistakes of the past.
On the other hand, your side not only does not accept its own mistakes, but you still celebrate the invasion! If you or another Turkish Cypriot comes to a forum and admits the mistakes of the Turkish Cypriot side it doesn’t matter much. What matters are the policies of Turkey and your leaders.

[metecyp]

We did accept the faults of our side long time ago. All Cyprus and Greek governments condemn the coup and the actions of EOKA-B and we accepted all other mistakes of the past.

What was the main mistake of G/C side in the past do you think? Especially between 1963-1974, what was the mistake or mistakes? Let me tell you some of the mistakes that I know.

1- Regarding T/Cs as mere minority and trying to get rid of the priviliges provided in the Republic of Cyprus (biggest mistake).

2- Financially and socially put T/Cs under immense pressure, so they immigrate to other countries.

3- Exclude T/Cs from the government as much as possible so Republic of Cyprus can be a Hellenic republic.

4- In some extreme cases, kill T/Cs or force them to leave from their villages. Especially during 1963, 1967, and 1974, there were various incidents where T/Cs were either killed or forced to flee their homes.

And the list goes on. I can also make a list of mistakes made by T/Cs, but that's not the issue here.

Now, out of these mistakes, can you sincerely tell me that your side completely acknowledged these mistakes, and they promised never to repeat them? The answer is no.

The biggest mistake of all (mistake 1) is still as fresh as in 1960s. Even in this forum, I heard many G/Cs complaining about priviliges provided to T/Cs in Republic of Cyprus, let alone Annan plan. Many G/Cs still see T/Cs as mere minority, and they try to give examples from other minorities in other countries with no regard to history and politics in and around Cyprus.

The second mistake that I listed is in effect today as well. You complain a lot about "occupation" and "invasion" but you're not the one living under "occupation". Social and economic embargos in the north affect T/Cs immensely, and they serve the same purpose that the economic and social pressure applied by your side in 1960s.

Even the third mistake that I listed in in effect. I know you'll say "you can come back to your positions in Republic of Cyprus" knowing that we cannot. What I would expect from you is to at least be a little bit uncomfortable by the fact that so-called bicommunal Republic of Cyprus has not been bicommunal for 40 years now, and stop telling the whole world that what you have in the south is indeed Republic of Cyprus representing both communities of the island.

It's easy to say "We accepted all our mistakes", and you can say it as much as you want but it ain't gonna matter when the reverse is in effect in practice.

On the other hand, your side not only does not accept its own mistakes, but you still celebrate the invasion! If you or another Turkish Cypriot comes to a forum and admits the mistakes of the Turkish Cypriot side it doesn’t matter much. What matters are the policies of Turkey and your leaders.

You're right. We'll never have true peace on our island, when one side celebrates a day that caused so much sufferring for the other side. However, you have to understand that even though Turkey's intervention caused so much sufferring for your side, it saved T/Cs from the miserable conditions of 1963-1974.

I can try to see 1974 from your point, and acknowledge your sufferrings (and indeed I do), but I can't convince a 80 year old T/C (whose village was occupied by G/C extremists, and whose fate was unknown until Turkish soldiers arrived) not to celebrate it.

Finally, don't act as if T/C did not learn from their mistakes. Between 1963-1974, most T/Cs supported partition and then union with Turkey. After 1974, most T/Cs supported two independent states on the island. Now with Annan plan, most T/Cs accept a federal structure because most T/C realized that Cyprus cannot remain divided. Similarly most T/Cs are more aware of their Cypriot culture than their Turkish culture, and they try to put their Cypriot character before anything else. These are some things we learned from our mistakes, I can list more.

[Piratis]

1. T/C are a minority. This is not a mistake - this is the truth. If you say this is a mistake then either you believe that T/C are more than the 50% of Cypriots, or you base your calculations on some weird Turkish formula I am not aware of.
In a democratic nation no people or group of people are supposed to have special privileges.

2. Yes, this was a mistake and we admit it. Most T/C were part of the lower class in Cyprus and sometimes G/C took advantage of them.

3. Greek Cypriots in 1960 made a mistake. They were told that they should accept the unfair constitution that gave a minority super special privileges, and that later this would change. Makarios took the approval of the British before he brought those "13 points".
This is why now we don’t believe anybody when they say that things will change in the future. This is why we will not make the same mistake twice and accept an unfair and non-functioning constitution with the hopes that it can change after some time.

4. These were, as you said, extremists. I don’t know if you expect from me, not one of them, to apologize for their actions. T/C and other minorities live in the free area of the Republic for decades and they are the living proof that those extreme actions are a thing of the past. (you also had your extremists, lets not forget about it)

Now, out of these mistakes, can you sincerely tell me that your side completely acknowledged these mistakes, and they promised never to repeat them? The answer is no.

The answer is yes!

We are obeying all EU laws and principles, and just this takes care of everything that you said. Minorities are treated according to the EU laws. This means no super special privileges anymore (answers 1,3) and respect to all human rights (answers 2,3,4).
We will never make the mistakes that you said above again.

[metecyp]

1. T/C are a minority. This is not a mistake - this is the truth. If you say this is a mistake then either you believe that T/C are more than the 50% of Cypriots, or you base your calculations on some weird Turkish formula I am not aware of.
In a democratic nation no people or group of people are supposed to have special privileges.

You're confusing minority in numbers and minority in political terms. Yes, T/Cs are minority in terms of numbers, but T/Cs are not minority in political terms, they've never been so. I'm not getting into this argument of "no minority has such rights anywhere in the world" etc. I base my argument on Republic of Cyprus. Republic of Cyprus is the last agreed structure, and according to it, T/Cs have some special priviliges to protect them from the majority.

Now, after having Republic of Cyprus just for yourself with no T/C participation for 40 years, after making the whole world believe that the structure in the south is indeed Republic of Cyprus on paper, and after getting Republic of Cyprus into EU on behalf of the whole island, DON'T COME and tell me that even the rights provided to T/Cs in Republic of Cyprus are too much! If that's the case, then stop calling the structure in the south Republic of Cyprus, call it Cyprus Hellenic Republic or something, and tell the whole world that what you have is not what says on the paper and stop deceiving the whole world.

We are obeying all EU laws and principles, and just this takes care of everything that you said. Minorities are treated according to the EU laws. This means no super special privileges anymore (answers 1,3) and respect to all human rights (answers 2,3,4).

EU laws and principles are not enough to safeguard the rights of T/Cs in the Republic of Cyprus, and you can't deny it. Actually, this was the main point why your side is so eager about EU and its laws, because now they have a cloak (EU laws) to get rid of T/C priviliges in Republic of Cyprus.

We will never make the mistakes that you said above again.

Even today, you're still trying to get rid of the priviliges of T/Cs, now the means are different, you use EU laws to hide your intentions, but the end is the same, you don't want T/Cs to have any priviliges and live like a minority and do whatever the majority says. I can assure you that this is not going to happen.