Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp

I asked what you replied to her comment that she only lived there for 3 months.

I think you have misunderstood this, the english couple had been harassed by the GC lawyer, he stated they would be thrown out of their homes in 3 months times becasue the property belonged to GCs, they just ignored him and closed the door.

The best friend of my wife visited her house at the occupied area.The TCs living in, literally striked them with their kindness and their warmth. They invited them for dinner next week.The TC man looked after the garden and made it look like a small paradise.Perhaps that was an effort to show how good take he is taking of the place he uses to live. And of course they told them they are expecting the date the Cyprus problem will be solved and each one gets his properties back, or exchange them etc. Can I call that family thieves? Of course not!

This would resemble to most of our population that dwell in pre 1974 GC properties.

The remaining number have developed the land or property because they are unable to get what they have in the south back, and dont say they can its an uphill struggle and they would have to reside in the south for starters, which no one wants to do.
Life goes on my friend, TCs that exchanged land in the south have developed them by building a home or something else. How can we logically think that we can live our lives waiting for a solution that may never come.

[insan]

Life goes on my friend, TCs that exchanged land in the south have developed them by building a home or something else. How can we logically think that we can live our lives waiting for a solution that may never come.

Actually, viewpoint; TCs haven't exchanged their lands in South with the ones they occupy. After the ratification of 1975, 3rd Vienna agreement, they assumed that when a comprehensive solution has been reached; they would be able to exchange their properties in South with the ones they occupy in North. We can consider this a well intentioned attempt.


What about gifting thousands of settlers with the properties belong to GCs? This is simply a malicious act. %25 of the occupied land should have been returned to GC administration right after the ratification of 3rd Vienna Agreement. This was feasible under the circumstances of mid-70s. Moreover, although it didn't seem feasible under the circumstances of post-war Cyprus; at least TC leadership should have exerted max. effort to allow 40.000 GC refugees to return their homes in the remaining part of the occupied area and protect them against assaults and oppressions. We should not close our eyes and ignore the big mistakes made by TC leadership and Turkey.

[Othellos]

Hello Insan

Is there any thief that after stealing anyones belongings promise to give a part of it back when agreed upon certain conditions, related with vital necessities of the "thief" that was under oppression and extortion of the other "thief"?

What do you call someone who arrives armed at your doorstep, who points a gun at you and who tells you to leave right away without any of your belongings (that is if u are lucky and he doesn't just shoot you)? What do you call this someone who after you left by force, he takes your house and gives it (or sells it) to a foreigner? And what do you call this same "someone" who loads all your personal belongings in a truck and ships them to Turkey so that these can be distributed over there? The only one time in its history when Cyprus became a major "exporter" in cars, furniture, television sets and other manufactured products was in 1974, if you know what I mean.

Furthermore is there any thief that when stealing someones belongings leave his/her belongings for exchange?

None of those GCs who found shelter in Turkish Cypriot homes after 1974 ever asked for such an "exchange". None of them ever asked to be refugees in their own country. If you or anyone else think otherwise just say so.

Moreover... The one who claims was robbed, robbed the "thief" long before the "thief" robbed him/her.

The truth is Insan that looting and robbery in Cyprus, began before 1963 and while the British were still here. No, it was not GCs who first started it, but they were surely were the first victims of it. And no, I do not blame every single TC for this, but then again, I do not see any purpose in denying selectively the past like many of u in this forum seem to be doing.

There is no doubt that in the last 50 years and the course of events, many TCs became also the victims of the Cyprus mess just like many GCs did. There is also no doubt that in 1974 many TCs also lost like many GCs did, as they had to abandon their homes and properties in the free areas. Yes, there were also GCs who looted TC homes (like the ones that Drousiotis wrote about in that article of his). And believe it or not, I know of at least of one incident where a GC house was looted by GCs before this was taken and looted again by the Turks! If the true goal in Cyprus is reconciliation, peace, reunification etc, there is no reason that GCs should deny any of these. But why should it be different for the TC? Making excuses for stealing and looting? Even if reconciliation is not on the agenda, why should one ever try and come up with excuses for someone else’s sh*t (please excuse my language)?

Now tell me what kind of robbery is this and who is the thief, who is the innocent.

The point I am trying to make under this thread is very simple and very straight forward: not only your systematic insistence to deny the sad but totally true fact that in 1974, thousands of GCs were robbed by Turkey at gunpoint (and if you still have any doubts about the use of the word "robbed" please read again my first paragraph in this post) shows a total lack of respect towards the other side, but it also cancells out all your theoretical posts in this forum about reconciliation committees, about a solution, about reunification etc.

Regards

O.

[magikthrill]

It seems to me that Turkey didn't get the job done right. They should have just shot and killed everyone instead of "kindly" asking them to leave. Then they could denied the whole thing ever happend cause hey "we weren't there" (see "alleged" Armenian Genocide)

[Saint Jimmy]

It seems to me that Turkey didn't get the job done right. They should have just shot and killed everyone instead of "kindly" asking them to leave.

Well, they didn't. And no matter how much bitterness we keep, and no matter who we direct it to, and no matter how much we keep bringing it all back and refuse to move on, it's not going to make any real difference.

Not everyone is going back, the dead cannot be resurrected, the invasion cannot be undone, and 1963-1974 will always have happened.

[insan]

Hello Insan

What do you call someone who arrives armed at your doorstep, who points a gun at you and who tells you to leave right away without any of your belongings (that is if u are lucky and he doesn't just shoot you)? What do you call this someone who after you left by force, he takes your house and gives it (or sells it) to a foreigner? And what do you call this same "someone" who loads all your personal belongings in a truck and ships them to Turkey so that these can be distributed over there? The only one time in its history when Cyprus became a major "exporter" in cars, furniture, television sets and other manufactured products was in 1974, if you know what I mean.

Hello Othellos,

As it is known; the main motive, aim of was not to steal the belongings and properties of GCs. Almost the same things happened in South during 1963-74. I'm not sure about what was the main aim of National Guard under command of Grivas and their political front when they were attacking the TC villages, killing innocent TCs, looting their belongings and demolishing their properties. I condemn all of the wrong doings. Under another thread I put forward my opinions about what Turkey and TCs should have done after the ratification of 3rd Vienna Agreement. Unfortunately, I still haven't heard any GCs telling us about what GC leadership, under influence of Grivas and far right should have done in 1964, instead of what they wrongly did.

None of those GCs who found shelter in Turkish Cypriot homes after 1974 ever asked for such an "exchange". None of them ever asked to be refugees in their own country. If you or anyone else think otherwise just say so.

True but don't we need a little bit of empathy in this situation for TCs who suffered a lot in 1963-74 period.

The truth is Insan that looting and robbery in Cyprus, began before 1963 and while the British were still here. No, it was not GCs who first started it, but they were surely were the first victims of it. And no, I do not blame every single TC for this, but then again, I do not see any purpose in denying selectively the past like many of u in this forum seem to be doing.

I also do not blame all GCs because of the events of 1964 and consequences. But I believe, political front of Greek and GC far right and National Guard under command of Grivas have big responsibility of what happened to TCs and their properties in 1964 and afterwards.

There is no doubt that in the last 50 years and the course of events, many TCs became also the victims of the Cyprus mess just like many GCs did. There is also no doubt that in 1974 many TCs also lost like many GCs did, as they had to abandon their homes and properties in the free areas. Yes, there were also GCs who looted TC homes (like the ones that Drousiotis wrote about in that article of his). And believe it or not, I know of at least of one incident where a GC house was looted by GCs before this was taken and looted again by the Turks! If the true goal in Cyprus is reconciliation, peace, reunification etc, there is no reason that GCs should deny any of these. But why should it be different for the TC? Making excuses for stealing and looting? Even if reconciliation is not on the agenda, why should one ever try and come up with excuses for someone else’s sh*t (please excuse my language)?

I agree with you. We should all acknowledge the facts; crimes comitted and wrong-doings. We should also try to examine, analysis the events of past in chain of causes-circumstances-consequences. Not in order to create excuses but for a better understanding.

Ps: Do you think TCs only lost in 1974? Do you have any idea what's happened to belongings and properties of TCs after the massive attacks of National Guard under command of Grivas that ended up evacuation of 103 villages by TCs?

The point I am trying to make under this thread is very simple and very straight forward: not only your systematic insistence to deny the sad but totally true fact that in 1974, thousands of GCs were robbed by Turkey at gunpoint (and if you still have any doubts about the use of the word "robbed" please read again my first paragraph in this post) shows a total lack of respect towards the other side, but it also cancells out all your theoretical posts in this forum about reconciliation committees, about a solution, about reunification etc.

"Thieves", "we were robbed but you weren't robbed.", "our thieves were more humane than your thieves", "we killed less than you killed" etc. don't lead us anywhere. Both side's official point of view still deny many facts. That's why I'm insisting on all relevant parties should discuss the facts and events of the past in front of public via mass media in order to enlighten people about the essentials of the facts, acknowledge the crimes and wrong-doings, relieve the pains in hearts and souls of Cypriots and eventually show them the way forward.

Regards

O.

Regards.

[MicAtCyp]

This would resemble to most of our population that dwell in pre 1974 GC properties.

I think you are right.Although I don't have personal opinion because the house of my wife is in Famagusta. But from stories I heard from friends, this is how the majority of TCs respond. On the other hand Viewpoint I am very sorry to say it but it is quite the opposite with the settlers. What is you opinion on this?

TCs that exchanged land in the south have developed them by building a home or something else.

Can I exchange my Mitsubishi with your Mercedes viewpoint? Or with 2 of your Mercedeces?
The fact is the invasion left the Tcs getting double than what they lost, and 4 times as their proportion of the resources of Cyprus. The areas in the northern part were the best and the most flourishing in Cyprus. The southern part was an ugly place. Ask older TCs to verify it for you.Your side still holds Famagusta as hostage...

For you, like you said, life goes on, just forget everything and move on. It's easy to say it especially when such a route will enable you safely enjoy what you gained on the expense of others. Unless these matters are settled nobody can move on, in peace. This is the reason an agreement must be reached. The sooner the better for everyone.

[Viewpoint]

Dear MicAtCyp

On the other hand Viewpoint I am very sorry to say it but it is quite the opposite with the settlers. What is you opinion on this?

My opinion on this issue is that I feel Turkish Settlers are a totally different ball game, they have no relation/history with Greek Cypriots like us. They have no safety mechanism, of feeling like they belong and that they cannot be thrown out at any time, they feel threatened and therefore react in this manner. The current situation benefits them so they will not welcome GCs like TCs would, its only natural.

Can I exchange my Mitsubishi with your Mercedes viewpoint? Or with 2 of your Mercedeces?

If this is the case the Annan plan allowed for the difference to be paid to the property board thus the original owner, dont you think that fair?? Development will continue theres no getting away from it, lawyers taking th property issue to court will not resolve anything but create bad feelings between GCs TCs English whoever. Thats why I always say time is working against us all, it will be the element that will cement partition.

As for the issue of getting the best part of the island, it would have been crazy to contemplate Turkey moving from the south northwards, so I wouldnt totally agree with your line of thought.

Life has to go on for all of us, we are at an disadvantage because we are not recognized yet the south has reeped the benefits of this to the full, acknowledging the fact that you have all worked hard to achieve this.
We cannot wait for a solution forever so after the referendum and the current GC stance I feel that land will be utilized to develop the economy of the north to try and come in line with the south, so that we will not be considered as a poor half of a federation if that day ever arrives

[brother]

It stands to reason that the tc could not freeze life and wait for solution as if we had 30 years on we would still be waiting but i believe many tc properties in the south are being used, i know this for a fact as my family lands have two huge restaurants on them but at this present time the tc leadership in the spirit of goodwill should let the residents of varosha and famagusta return to their properties as these areas are already sitting doing nothing but rotting over time and it would also demonstrate some maturity in the process and also build a huge bridge between the communities, having said this the gc leaders could also let a percentage of tc return and claim their properties back and live in the south hence yet again demonstrating their maturity and also proving that they can represent the two communities fairly and increase the tc trust in the ROC.

Do you guys see where i am going with this, all of it can be done prior to solution and might end up expiditing efforts for solution as it would show that where there is a will there is a way.

[MicAtCyp]

My opinion on this issue is that I feel Turkish Settlers
are a totally different ball game, they have no
relation/history with Greek Cypriots like us. They have
no safety mechanism, of feeling like they belong and
that they cannot be thrown out at any time, they feel
threatened and therefore react in this manner. The
current situation benefits them so they will not welcome
GCs like TCs would, its only natural.

I understand...

If this is the case the Annan plan allowed for the
difference to be paid to the property board thus the
original owner, dont you think that fair?

No Viewpoint it's not fair for many reasons each of one can stand alone or combined:
a)First because the compensation would be paid by all the citizens through taxation, 82% of which are GCs having more thatn 90% of the economic power to pay tat taxation. So in the end the GCs would compensate themselves.
b)Because the compensation will be with bonds (not cash) with no value guarantee and with unknown interest that most propably on cashday (25 ?) years after, will not worth enough even to buy a bicycle.
c) The third reason is rather complicated:
Let me ask you one theoretical question.Suppose the GCs come and tell you how much you want for ALL your land? We will pay you twice as much as you want, we will build you skyscrapers for all of you to live in, and we will give you jobs and salaries until you die equal to what you are making from that land. Would you sell it to them?
I am sure the answer is NO. Why then? The reason is because you DO NEED the land. Why do you need it? Because land is source of primary wealth, not only for you but for your children and all generations after them. It gives you wealth for eternity!

If for example your standard of living is such that the average salary is 4,000 pounds this is not because your country produces 4000 pounds per person.It is because 1,000 pounds of primary wealth rotate 4 times per year among the people for providing services to each other. One type of primary wealth is the agricultural products. So all these 4000 pounds are just a circulation of those 1000 pounds 4 times among the people for providing services to each other. This is a big chapter in Economics but I think you can understand the basics.

So by depriving people their land is like cutting off their Standard of living many times.On the other hand giving someone that land is like boosting his standard of living multiple times.

So in my opinion the matter of compensation is superficial and misleading. All refugees (GCs and TCs should be able to regain their properties and after that exchange them equal for equal. Whatever is left over be returned to the ownership of the original owner irrespective of whether he wants to return. He might want to sell it or rent it. It's his choice.

Development
will continue theres no getting away from it, lawyers
taking th property issue to court will not resolve
anything but create bad feelings between GCs TCs English
whoever.

I am sorry but selling land to foreigners is not really a development! All you are doing is selling out your source of primary wealth. It will do you good temporarily i.e for one generation only i.e 20 years ONLY. Then what?
By the way I am not blaming only you for selling land to the foreigners. The situation among the GCs is worse. Especially in Paphos. I tell them , re you sell your land now and the prices go up all the time, what will happen when your children grow up and will need to buy land to build their homes? Of course at Paphos they sell their own properties whereas in the occupied areas they sell both their own and the properties of GCs.

As for the issue of getting the best part of the island,
it would have been crazy to contemplate Turkey moving
from the south northwards, so I wouldnt totally agree
with your line of thought.

Well I did not say she should move from south to North. It so happened that those areas were the richest. I am not saying Turkey got them just because they were rich.

We cannot wait for a solution forever...

Viewpoint I have a queery that so far no TC answered me. When exactly did the TCs start wanting a solution? I mean wanting it with their full hearts. Surely not in 1975. When exactly then?