Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

[...]

It is like dealing with some brainwashed religious sect who, if you challenge one plank of their cherished doctrine, assume that you are automatically denying everything they believe in. This assumption is wrong. I do not dispute that the Turkish Cypriot community went through a lot of suffering at this time; I do dispute the claim that "hundreds of villages were burned".

[...]

I do like your wording Tim and how you attack "Ethnic conflict" into the fray, which is in itself a watered down euphemism for what happened. You accuse others of a religious sect type mentality and suffer from it yourself. You blast us for even mentioning 1963/74 and even have the nerve to ask what it has to do with the present situation but add your little insults of 1974 and the refugees produced. You insult every TC when you ask this. We have had our rights taken away mate and that happened in 1964. When you are ready to hand them back to us then the talks will progress and not before. Asking us to forget what happened to us and only take what happened in 1974 is pointless. You want to help the peace process.....Then try to refrain from asking us to believe that the exodus from our villages was a more relaxed and less destructive. Try looking at the news reports of the day if you REALLY want to get to the bottom of it. All you are doing at the moment is what the paid members of the Greek movement are doing on this form.......If that has eluded you as well and you cannot see that then a line from Black Adder might help......."Deny everything Baldrick"....It has taken me three years to hear that the TCs might have actually suffered at the hands of the Greeks......Maybe another three will have us acknowledging the destruction to TC property and the cover up. Villages burned.....Greeks moved in and renovated...Deniz home and village mosque disappears, Halil giving you example after example but unless you see the whole mess as it was you will not believe it.....Perhaps you even believe the world is still flat

Thank you for confirming my point.

What I want to see is truth and reconciliation. The claim that 130 Turkish Cypriot villages were burned is not the truth. In my opinion, by making such wild, unsubstantiated claims which can easily be refuted you actually provide ammunition for those who would deny the suffering endured by the Turkish Cypriot community at that time.

The claim that there were exactly 200.000 refugees is also not the truth! There were less. But what does it matter?

Do you really believe that it makes any difference?

[samarkeolog]

OK then, which ones were burnt down? Can you give a list?

As we've been through before, Patrick (1976: 78; 79) said that '[m]ost of the abandoned villages and quarters were ransacked and even burned by Greek-Cypriots', 'the abandoned homes were looted and often burned-out ruins', but didn't say which or where...

There is a very strange, unsatisfactory way of identifying places that were damaged, and that's finding buildings that were (claimed to have been) repaired by the Greek Cypriot administration. It doesn't show the total number of damaged or destroyed buildings, or the total number of damaged or destroyed villages. There were 45 homes in Potamia, 30 in Nisou (Patrick, 1976: 283); 17 in Peristerona-Lefkosias, 54 in Skylloura and 8 in Agios Vasilios, but actually, both of those and Akaki, Arediou, Argaki, Agia Marina, Kato Deftera, Deneia, Dhyo Potami, Agioi Eliophotes, Orounda and Pano Koutraphas were 'abandoned and in ruins' (Patrick, 1976: 285), 1 home in either Neochorio, or Palaekythro, or Vitsada (Patrick, 1976: 289-290); 6 in Pano Lefkara (Patrick, 1976: 302); 1 in Asomatos (Patrick, 1976: 305); 103 in Mallia, 2 in Kilani, and 2 homes, 1 school and 1 mosque in Silikou (Patrick, 1976: 308). 1 school and 1 mosque in Pitargou (Patrick, 1976: 312). 'At Kithasi, the Christian Aid group rebuilt a number of damaged houses' (Patrick, 1976: 312). That totals 272 buildings - 268 homes, 2 schools and 2 mosques - in 23 villages.

Yet in Report S/5950, the United Nations Security Council (1964: 48 - para. 180) stated that 'in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2,000 others have suffered damage from looting', so a lot more villages than Patrick named must also have had damaged and destroyed homes, and that was only up to September 1964. (So by 1967, 1974, 1976, or later, there would have been many, many more damaged and destroyed places.)

(Apart from the villages, Patrick only said that '[m]uch of the quarter [of Ktima] has been vacated and stands in ruins' (Patrick, 1976: 310). The UNSC (1964: 48 - para. 180) clarified that, in Ktima, '38 houses and shops have been destroyed totally and 122 partially', and also noted that in Omorphita, '50 houses have been totally destroyed while a further 240 have been partially destroyed there and in adjacent suburbs'.)

Richard Patrick's list is in your own words a "list of villages abandoned by Turkish Cypriots in 1963-1964". Even this statement is misleading because a great many of the villages listed were mixed.

Yes, sorry, I forgot to write out "villages and neighbourhoods" every single time I said anything. I assumed it was clear from everything else I said.

I have checked the link you have quoted above (essentially it is the same story that I posted earlier, but taken from the TRNC Information Office's website).

Yeah, I have two links for it, but I used the TRNC PIO one, because it's a permanent address.

Güney Kıbrıs’ta yok edilen Türk köyleri şunlar:
[These are the destroyed Turkish villages in South Cyprus]

I am sorry, but I beg to differ as to the meaning of the Turkish expression "yok etmek". The definition of this expression given in the Turkish Language Institute dictionary is "varlığına son vermek, ortadan kaldırmak, ifna etmek, izale etmek". It is clear to me that this means "destroy" and refers to a deliberate wilful act. You seem to be confusing "yok etmek" with "yok olmak".

I don't think so. As far as I know, the difference between "yok etmek" and "yok olmak" is the difference between an action and a state of being, like a verb and an adjective. Once a place has been emptied/destroyed (yok edildi), it is an emptied/destroyed place (yok oldu).

I think the question is whether "a village" is "the people in a place" or "the buildings in a place". So, when some Turkish Cypriot villages were evacuated, they gave their southern village name to their northern village, because it wasn't just the people, but the village that had moved. Similarly, then, Erçakıca might - might - have meant that the human community had been ethnically cleansed or evacuated (or, yes, destroyed). Still, I did say I thought he was just being lazy and I do agree that it harms his credibility.

About five miles from where I live is the old abandoned village of Mathikoloni (there is a new Mathikoloni village about a mile away). It is in ruins. Before you start jumping to any conclusions, this was a 100% Greek Cypriot village. That's what happens to traditional Cypriot villages if they are abandoned. They gradually fall into a pile of rubble.

Yeah, I remember going to a village that had been abandoned for economic reasons and thinking that it was a different village evacuated because of the conflict. But I had missed the one I was trying to find because it had been so completely destroyed.

Do exaggerated and inflammatory claims of this nature help or hinder the process of peace and reconciliation in Cyprus?

Of course, mistaken or malicious claims hinder peace and reconciliation. This is one of the reasons I'm trying to get solid information on churches, mosques and villages all together in one place.

If I may quote from you post on Dec 28 6:45 pm on this very thread:

Certainly, the Turkish Cypriot homes of Agioi Eliophotes/Alifodez, Agios Epiphanios-Soleas/Aybifan, Arediou/Aredyu and Pano Koutraphas/Yukari Kurtbogan were destroyed in 1964 or 1974

you yourself are supporting my claim i.e. it was the Turkish Cypriot quarter of Agios Epiphanios that was destroyed and not the whole village.

I just said homes, rather than the village of A, the village of B, the neighbourhood of C, the village of D. The village of Agioi Eliophotes was destroyed - except for the church. The village of Agios Epiphanios-Soleas was destroyed. If there is a Greek Cypriot neighbourhood of Agios Epiphanios that I don't know of, please, tell me. Patrick (1976: 318) recorded it as completely abandoned. The only buildings I could see were the church and the National Guard post - and the ruins of the Turkish Cypriot homes underneath. The village of Pano Koutraphas was destroyed. The Turkish Cypriot neighbourhood of Arediou was damaged or destroyed (or bought by Greek Cypriots for veeery little money from their Turkish Cypriot refugee owners...).

(As for a lack of a list of names, etc., has the Greek Cypriot Administration or Church published the complete list of 520 converted, damaged or destroyed sites in the North? It should give the same amount of evidence as it asks from everyone else.)

But, to close, I would remind the people who are going on and on and on about the fact that there were not hundreds of destroyed Turkish Cypriot villages, that there were nearly a hundred. That is true and that is dreadful.

[samarkeolog]

Yet in Report S/5950, the United Nations Security Council (1964: 48 - para. 180) stated that 'in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2,000 others have suffered damage from looting'.

... I meant the report from the UN Secretary-General, to the Security Council...

[halil]

OK then, which ones were burnt down? Can you give a list?

As we've been through before, Patrick (1976: 78; 79) said that '[m]ost of the abandoned villages and quarters were ransacked and even burned by Greek-Cypriots', 'the abandoned homes were looted and often burned-out ruins', but didn't say which or where...

There is a very strange, unsatisfactory way of identifying places that were damaged, and that's finding buildings that were (claimed to have been) repaired by the Greek Cypriot administration. It doesn't show the total number of damaged or destroyed buildings, or the total number of damaged or destroyed villages. There were 45 homes in Potamia, 30 in Nisou (Patrick, 1976: 283); 17 in Peristerona-Lefkosias, 54 in Skylloura and 8 in Agios Vasilios, but actually, both of those and Akaki, Arediou, Argaki, Agia Marina, Kato Deftera, Deneia, Dhyo Potami, Agioi Eliophotes, Orounda and Pano Koutraphas were 'abandoned and in ruins' (Patrick, 1976: 285), 1 home in either Neochorio, or Palaekythro, or Vitsada (Patrick, 1976: 289-290); 6 in Pano Lefkara (Patrick, 1976: 302); 1 in Asomatos (Patrick, 1976: 305); 103 in Mallia, 2 in Kilani, and 2 homes, 1 school and 1 mosque in Silikou (Patrick, 1976: 308). 1 school and 1 mosque in Pitargou (Patrick, 1976: 312). 'At Kithasi, the Christian Aid group rebuilt a number of damaged houses' (Patrick, 1976: 312). That totals 272 buildings - 268 homes, 2 schools and 2 mosques - in 23 villages.

Yet in Report S/5950, the United Nations Security Council (1964: 48 - para. 180) stated that 'in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2,000 others have suffered damage from looting', so a lot more villages than Patrick named must also have had damaged and destroyed homes, and that was only up to September 1964. (So by 1967, 1974, 1976, or later, there would have been many, many more damaged and destroyed places.)

(Apart from the villages, Patrick only said that '[m]uch of the quarter [of Ktima] has been vacated and stands in ruins' (Patrick, 1976: 310). The UNSC (1964: 48 - para. 180) clarified that, in Ktima, '38 houses and shops have been destroyed totally and 122 partially', and also noted that in Omorphita, '50 houses have been totally destroyed while a further 240 have been partially destroyed there and in adjacent suburbs'.)

Richard Patrick's list is in your own words a "list of villages abandoned by Turkish Cypriots in 1963-1964". Even this statement is misleading because a great many of the villages listed were mixed.

Yes, sorry, I forgot to write out "villages and neighbourhoods" every single time I said anything. I assumed it was clear from everything else I said.

I have checked the link you have quoted above (essentially it is the same story that I posted earlier, but taken from the TRNC Information Office's website).

Yeah, I have two links for it, but I used the TRNC PIO one, because it's a permanent address.

Güney Kıbrıs’ta yok edilen Türk köyleri şunlar:
[These are the destroyed Turkish villages in South Cyprus]

I am sorry, but I beg to differ as to the meaning of the Turkish expression "yok etmek". The definition of this expression given in the Turkish Language Institute dictionary is "varlığına son vermek, ortadan kaldırmak, ifna etmek, izale etmek". It is clear to me that this means "destroy" and refers to a deliberate wilful act. You seem to be confusing "yok etmek" with "yok olmak".

I don't think so. As far as I know, the difference between "yok etmek" and "yok olmak" is the difference between an action and a state of being, like a verb and an adjective. Once a place has been emptied/destroyed (yok edildi), it is an emptied/destroyed place (yok oldu).

I think the question is whether "a village" is "the people in a place" or "the buildings in a place". So, when some Turkish Cypriot villages were evacuated, they gave their southern village name to their northern village, because it wasn't just the people, but the village that had moved. Similarly, then, Erçakıca might - might - have meant that the human community had been ethnically cleansed or evacuated (or, yes, destroyed). Still, I did say I thought he was just being lazy and I do agree that it harms his credibility.

About five miles from where I live is the old abandoned village of Mathikoloni (there is a new Mathikoloni village about a mile away). It is in ruins. Before you start jumping to any conclusions, this was a 100% Greek Cypriot village. That's what happens to traditional Cypriot villages if they are abandoned. They gradually fall into a pile of rubble.

Yeah, I remember going to a village that had been abandoned for economic reasons and thinking that it was a different village evacuated because of the conflict. But I had missed the one I was trying to find because it had been so completely destroyed.

Do exaggerated and inflammatory claims of this nature help or hinder the process of peace and reconciliation in Cyprus?

Of course, mistaken or malicious claims hinder peace and reconciliation. This is one of the reasons I'm trying to get solid information on churches, mosques and villages all together in one place.

If I may quote from you post on Dec 28 6:45 pm on this very thread:

Certainly, the Turkish Cypriot homes of Agioi Eliophotes/Alifodez, Agios Epiphanios-Soleas/Aybifan, Arediou/Aredyu and Pano Koutraphas/Yukari Kurtbogan were destroyed in 1964 or 1974

you yourself are supporting my claim i.e. it was the Turkish Cypriot quarter of Agios Epiphanios that was destroyed and not the whole village.

I just said homes, rather than the village of A, the village of B, the neighbourhood of C, the village of D. The village of Agioi Eliophotes was destroyed - except for the church. The village of Agios Epiphanios-Soleas was destroyed. If there is a Greek Cypriot neighbourhood of Agios Epiphanios that I don't know of, please, tell me. Patrick (1976: 318) recorded it as completely abandoned. The only buildings I could see were the church and the National Guard post - and the ruins of the Turkish Cypriot homes underneath. The village of Pano Koutraphas was destroyed. The Turkish Cypriot neighbourhood of Arediou was damaged or destroyed (or bought by Greek Cypriots for veeery little money from their Turkish Cypriot refugee owners...).

(As for a lack of a list of names, etc., has the Greek Cypriot Administration or Church published the complete list of 520 converted, damaged or destroyed sites in the North? It should give the same amount of evidence as it asks from everyone else.)

But, to close, I would remind the people who are going on and on and on about the fact that there were not hundreds of destroyed Turkish Cypriot villages, that there were nearly a hundred. That is true and that is dreadful.

During our transmission field measurements I witness one of the abandoned villages in North . The village called Arıdamı (Artemi) . the village was tottaly destroyed between 1963-1974 . The people of this village were gone to Gönendere (Knodara,Kounetra) when the 1963 conflict started .After 74 when they return back to their village there was no such a place .

You can see only name of this place in the map but you can not find it .

during the field measurment we were following the map and road signs to go to villages and do our field measurment . we found the village sign , we went that direction , we got lost in the field . we return back to main road again and went trough the village called Mallıdağ (Melunda ,Melounta) to do our field test . we asked the locals how we can go to Artemi , They said Artemi is razed off from the her place only we can see some ruins and old cemetery .... It was true what we have seen .

properly in may we will go around that area aGAİN .This time i will take pictures of the place and put it in the forum or any one that does not belive can drive their .

[Tim Drayton]

Sorry to be a pain, Halil, but according to the above map the village named Artemi was inside a TMT-controlled enclave between 1963 and 1974. If it was destroyed during this period, doesn't that make the TMT responsible?

[Tim Drayton]

Again, sorry to be a pest, Halil, but here is a satellite image of Arıdamı/Artemi dated 2008. When I focus in on the village at the highest possible resolution, I can quite clearly see the walls of the abandoned buildings. Can you be sure that what we witness here is not simply the ravages of time on Cypriot village houses that have been abandoned for several decades?

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:BOW ... =clnk&cd=1

[Oracle]

If the TMT were pressuring the TCs to leave for enclaves (proof of which has been posted many times by others) ... would burning down their villages not be part of this coercion?

They did conduct a few false flag operations before the restart of conflict in 1963 (and apparently one after it, bombing the Turkish Cypriot Communal Chamber in 1964), but it really is absurd to talk as if the 1963-1964 crisis was the Turkish ...

Yes I'm sorry ... it really is absurd to suggest any means other than fair and rational, were behind the pillaging and taking of nearly half our Island!

Silly me I should have known the Turks conduct themselves with the utmost decorum, even in war!

[Nikitas]

I saw Peristerona mentioned in the list of destroyed villages above.

It is a place I happen to know well because it is very near my grandfather's village. Half of the village was TC. The Tc inhabitants left but they returned in 1967 and stayed there ever since. Some of my cousins rented fields from TCs and cultivated them till 1974. They also bought water for irrigation from a TC who owned a well just northeast of Peristerona, and this was going on till the invasion.

The assertion that Peristerona houses were looted etc is not accurate.

And one more detail, my grandfather's house has been bulldozed because the TCs who were trasferred to the village from Polis did not want any empty houses left to attract settlers. This use of demolition as a "counter settler" measure is seen frequently in the occupied Morphou area.

[samarkeolog]

.... The village called Arıdamı (Artemi) . the village was tottaly destroyed between 1963-1974 . The people of this village were gone to Gönendere (Knodara,Kounetra) when the 1963 conflict started. After 74 when they return back to their village there was no such a place.

You can see only name of this place in the map but you can not find it....

Artemi is razed off from the her place only we can see some ruins and old cemetery....

I met one half or both of a Turkish Cypriot couple two or three times in Famagusta, the husband from Vitsada, the wife from Artemis, who said the same. In fact, as you say, when I asked where Artemis was, (the wife wasn't there that time, but) the husband showed me it on the map, but said it wasn't there anymore.

[samarkeolog]

Again, sorry to be a pest, Halil, but here is a satellite image of Arıdamı/Artemi dated 2008. When I focus in on the village at the highest possible resolution, I can quite clearly see the walls of the abandoned buildings. Can you be sure that what we witness here is not simply the ravages of time on Cypriot village houses that have been abandoned for several decades?

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:BOW ... =clnk&cd=1

First of all, there is no way that that many buildings can so uniformly and so completely lose their roofs in this time (only two looks like it still has a roof and there are tens of ruins). You would see some that still had half a roof, or part of the roof. Second, you can see that there is absolutely nothing inside any of the buildings, which isn't natural. Third, you can see that many of the buildings have lost walls as well.

Fourth, if you look at the light, regular lines in the ground, you will see that they, too, show the outlines of buildings. They are where walls either on or under the surface have caused different soil conditions, so plants grow differently on top (either better, or worse, or not at all, etc.), so the colour difference shows the outline. Now, I would warn that they could be older buildings, but their outlines look the same as the other buildings', they fit within the other buildings of the village (none of them go under the other buildings, so the other buildings were not built later, on top of them), in fact most, if not all of them, are parallel to the other buildings. So, they used to be buildings in that village - and there is no natural way for them to disappear so completely...