Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

Observer you can quote what you like. I wasnt even born when these incidents happened so I cant comments on them.

Viewpoint I'm not saying TC's were not killed by GC's in 1963. I've never denied that. I personally believe that those who killed the TC's are criminals and if any of them are still around they should be sent down. Same goes for the greeks cypriots that backed the 1974 coup.

But dont sit their and say you lot had nothing to do with inter communal violence in 1963. It was the TC's that sided with the brits and became informants on their own country men.

Just to clarify Grivas was a thug and if it was not for him half the problems would not exist. But to soley blame the GC's is unnaceptable.

GV: I appreciate that you were not born then. I was. You seem to have a number of events muddled up in your mind when it comes to the time line.

GCs and TCs fought each other prior to 1960 and independence. The justifications can go backwards and forwards forever, but an agreement was reached to share power and not seek union with any other country.

Between 1960 and the end of 1963 there was an uneasy period, but in general, politicians argued and the rest of us got on with our lives. There were no Brits for TCs to side with then.

In November 1963 (not 1974 as you seem to believe) Makarios submitted his 13 points to change the Constitution, removing (as seen through TC eyes) constitutional safeguards and being a large step on the way to enosis. One month later, GCs launched a premeditated attack on TC communities. The evidence for this is fairly conclusive from a number of sources, and is generally accepted by independent authorities. This brought the UN to Cyprus in early 1964, and sporadic intercommunal violence occured afterwards, gradually reducing, but leaving many TCs in embargoed camps and enclaves. This included vengeance killings by some GCs and some TCs, I don't know anyone who denies it.

There was a gradual improvement up to 1974, but in 1974 there was a coup aimed at enosis. I was not in Cyprus for this. I can not tell how popular or otherwise the coup was, but the facts speak for themselves. The coup started on July 15th. 4 days later, the elected president, Makarios, had fled the island. Additional Greek troops had arrived by air. More Greek troops were at sea sailing to Cyprus. The coupists had seized all major population centres and the radio stations. Samson had been declared president. The Greek/coupist forces had moved to surround the enclaved TCs. As seen through TC (and Turkish eyes) the Greek/coupist forces were in charge of the island. Turkey invaded.

In the invasion people died and both sides commited some attrocities. I don't know anyone who denies it.

After 3 armed GC uprisings 20 years, aimed directly or indirectly at TCs, I hope that you can begin to understand why so many TCs want more security today than the word of a GC politician. Even that of the UN or the EU are not really sufficient when we see what has happened in the Balkans.

GCs who tell us that enosis is a dead idea are probably right, but given the antagonism that is expressed by a large number of GCs, the potential for economic discrimination, and the day-to-day hostility shown at any attempt to ease our embargo, it is the rare TC that is willing to be ruled by the majority GCs.

[wallace]

I cant tell you anything mate. Your people make their own decisions. Would it not have been better to stay out of it.

Surley if you stayed out of the troubles a better constitution would have been draw up when the brits were ready to sit down and talk about possible independence as Enosis was out of the question because the TC's had rights.

Like I said not everyone wanted Enosis I know my family were against it at the time. The trust between the two community was lost as soon as you backed the brits.

This gave Grivas and his thugs the licence to go after the TC's when independence was granted. Markarios made mistakes in the early 60's when he decided he wanted Cyprus to become part of Greece. This gave Grivas licence to kill. Makarios relised his mistakes but it was too late.

I believe the Turkey munipulated the situation so they could get half of Cyprus. It was always their plan and their mate Kissinger was there to help.

Staying out was not an option as it was our future and well being that was being gambled, we did not want to be part of Greece so we had no option but to stand up and fight for what we believed, the Brits were our only local ally.

Better constitution for whom? and why?

Stand up and fight and defending your believes is different then ethnically cleansing 200.000 you plonker. You cannot justify all the international crimes you have comitted and are still comitting at this moment because a couple of 100 assholes wanted your so called enosis. Whatever you say and all the bullshit you throw out on this forum will only be recognised by all that read it that you are trying to justify your criminal behaviour. The RoC is a EU member now and we live by a certain law and have human rights in place. Your mother country Turkey=Fascist state is braking all laws at the moment.

[Viewpoint]

I cant tell you anything mate. Your people make their own decisions. Would it not have been better to stay out of it.

Surley if you stayed out of the troubles a better constitution would have been draw up when the brits were ready to sit down and talk about possible independence as Enosis was out of the question because the TC's had rights.

Like I said not everyone wanted Enosis I know my family were against it at the time. The trust between the two community was lost as soon as you backed the brits.

This gave Grivas and his thugs the licence to go after the TC's when independence was granted. Markarios made mistakes in the early 60's when he decided he wanted Cyprus to become part of Greece. This gave Grivas licence to kill. Makarios relised his mistakes but it was too late.

I believe the Turkey munipulated the situation so they could get half of Cyprus. It was always their plan and their mate Kissinger was there to help.

Staying out was not an option as it was our future and well being that was being gambled, we did not want to be part of Greece so we had no option but to stand up and fight for what we believed, the Brits were our only local ally.

Better constitution for whom? and why?

Stand up and fight and defending your believes is different then ethnically cleansing 200.000 you plonker. You cannot justify all the international crimes you have comitted and are still comitting at this moment because a couple of 100 assholes wanted your so called enosis. Whatever you say and all the bullshit you throw out on this forum will only be recognised by all that read it that you are trying to justify your criminal behaviour. The RoC is a EU member now and we live by a certain law and have human rights in place. Your mother country Turkey=Fascist state is braking all laws at the moment.

Dont see anyone running to your rescue wallace, what does that tell you? The "cleansing" you claim was only a result of your actions when Turkish troops were trying to save your arse, if you try to kill me I will try to defend myself and cannot promise that I will not try to kill you.

[Kifeas]

GV: I appreciate that you were not born then. I was. You seem to have a number of events muddled up in your mind when it comes to the time line.

GCs and TCs fought each other prior to 1960 and independence. The justifications can go backwards and forwards forever, but an agreement was reached to share power and not seek union with any other country.

Between 1960 and the end of 1963 there was an uneasy period, but in general, politicians argued and the rest of us got on with our lives. There were no Brits for TCs to side with then.

In November 1963 (not 1974 as you seem to believe) Makarios submitted his 13 points to change the Constitution, removing (as seen through TC eyes) constitutional safeguards and being a large step on the way to enosis. One month later, GCs launched a premeditated attack on TC communities. The evidence for this is fairly conclusive from a number of sources, and is generally accepted by independent authorities. This brought the UN to Cyprus in early 1964, and sporadic intercommunal violence occured afterwards, gradually reducing, but leaving many TCs in embargoed camps and enclaves. This included vengeance killings by some GCs and some TCs, I don't know anyone who denies it.

There was a gradual improvement up to 1974, but in 1974 there was a coup aimed at enosis. I was not in Cyprus for this. I can not tell how popular or otherwise the coup was, but the facts speak for themselves. The coup started on July 15th. 4 days later, the elected president, Makarios, had fled the island. Additional Greek troops had arrived by air. More Greek troops were at sea sailing to Cyprus. The coupists had seized all major population centres and the radio stations. Samson had been declared president. The Greek/coupist forces had moved to surround the enclaved TCs. As seen through TC (and Turkish eyes) the Greek/coupist forces were in charge of the island. Turkey invaded.

In the invasion people died and both sides commited some attrocities. I don't know anyone who denies it.

After 3 armed GC uprisings 20 years, aimed directly or indirectly at TCs, I hope that you can begin to understand why so many TCs want more security today than the word of a GC politician. Even that of the UN or the EU are not really sufficient when we see what has happened in the Balkans.

GCs who tell us that enosis is a dead idea are probably right, but given the antagonism that is expressed by a large number of GCs, the potential for economic discrimination, and the day-to-day hostility shown at any attempt to ease our embargo, it is the rare TC that is willing to be ruled by the majority GCs.

You may have been born then, but most of your "facts" above, are not the real facts! Whatever I marked in red is nothing else than distortions or lies, and I ask you to prove it from independed sources as you claimed.

[Nikitas]

Observer, you have the timing of events kind of muddled up.

In 1974 Greek troops of the regular ELDYK force were sailing to Cyprus on a transport ship. Yes, but they were not additional troops, they were the replacement of those on the island. Typical military blunder to send an unarmed transport when planning hostilities.

Troops arrived by air, yes, three platoons of commandos at night and after the invasion started. Those where the planes shot at by the ground troops in Nicosia airport. Another blunder in that no one informed the ground troops of the impending landings.

The coupists did surround the TC enclaves, after the invasion began.

[repulsewarrior]

...significantly (in 1974), the coupist had no popular support from the dwellers ("Greek" or "Turkish"), and as Nikitas has made clear, not even as a force was their military mobilised for this action. It is of no value to paint "Greek" Cypriots with this brush.


in general it is true, Turkish Cypriots were driven into enclaves in an era we call the Cold War, but you know as I do black men are no longer defined just as babboons, and they no longer hang from trees (in the USA); Greeks and Turks are not so barbarous to their enemies, as they were in the past either.
...Although someone will mouth up that Turkey needs a lot of reform toward this end.

I think Cypriots can accept themselves as this island's dwellers before their National convictions when a simple and sustaining Constitution is provided which supports the foundation of our Principals, as people: Individuals and as Persons who live bicommunally.

Turkey stands to gain alot from her recognition of a unified Cypriot State, but as a model (and as aDemocratic state) it must be so "perfect", that in its beauty it is something that Turkey herself will emulate in ending the stagnation of her own reform.

...trying to justify a result is not the same as leaving the result as a fait accompli through the Turkish Army's illegal occupation. 'things' have to change. in essence settlers, and land are bargaining chips, by percentage one might say a tit for a tat to make the table level, so that an agreement can be made along the lines of the present Constitution or better. Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots have been torn apart by their elites to assure control over their own exclusive interests. Like plunderers no respect or recognition is given to the island as a Heritance which is older, and important to all Mankind. This wealth is being torn in two for its riches. I assume hopefully that Talat and Demetrios are different because they gain their support from the ground up.

[wallace]

I cant tell you anything mate. Your people make their own decisions. Would it not have been better to stay out of it.

Surley if you stayed out of the troubles a better constitution would have been draw up when the brits were ready to sit down and talk about possible independence as Enosis was out of the question because the TC's had rights.

Like I said not everyone wanted Enosis I know my family were against it at the time. The trust between the two community was lost as soon as you backed the brits.

This gave Grivas and his thugs the licence to go after the TC's when independence was granted. Markarios made mistakes in the early 60's when he decided he wanted Cyprus to become part of Greece. This gave Grivas licence to kill. Makarios relised his mistakes but it was too late.

I believe the Turkey munipulated the situation so they could get half of Cyprus. It was always their plan and their mate Kissinger was there to help.

Staying out was not an option as it was our future and well being that was being gambled, we did not want to be part of Greece so we had no option but to stand up and fight for what we believed, the Brits were our only local ally.

Better constitution for whom? and why?

Stand up and fight and defending your believes is different then ethnically cleansing 200.000 you plonker. You cannot justify all the international crimes you have comitted and are still comitting at this moment because a couple of 100 assholes wanted your so called enosis. Whatever you say and all the bullshit you throw out on this forum will only be recognised by all that read it that you are trying to justify your criminal behaviour. The RoC is a EU member now and we live by a certain law and have human rights in place. Your mother country Turkey=Fascist state is braking all laws at the moment.

Dont see anyone running to your rescue wallace, what does that tell you? The "cleansing" you claim was only a result of your actions when Turkish troops were trying to save your arse, if you try to kill me I will try to defend myself and cannot promise that I will not try to kill you.

Rescue will come....patience VP...patience!! Have a look at this you plonker. Cleansing I claim????? All these people were trying to kill you?? Sure they were.....keep on trying to justify your crimes while having a look at this. Real images plonker video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8259503203978535843

[Viewpoint]

I cant tell you anything mate. Your people make their own decisions. Would it not have been better to stay out of it.

Surley if you stayed out of the troubles a better constitution would have been draw up when the brits were ready to sit down and talk about possible independence as Enosis was out of the question because the TC's had rights.

Like I said not everyone wanted Enosis I know my family were against it at the time. The trust between the two community was lost as soon as you backed the brits.

This gave Grivas and his thugs the licence to go after the TC's when independence was granted. Markarios made mistakes in the early 60's when he decided he wanted Cyprus to become part of Greece. This gave Grivas licence to kill. Makarios relised his mistakes but it was too late.

I believe the Turkey munipulated the situation so they could get half of Cyprus. It was always their plan and their mate Kissinger was there to help.

Staying out was not an option as it was our future and well being that was being gambled, we did not want to be part of Greece so we had no option but to stand up and fight for what we believed, the Brits were our only local ally.

Better constitution for whom? and why?

Stand up and fight and defending your believes is different then ethnically cleansing 200.000 you plonker. You cannot justify all the international crimes you have comitted and are still comitting at this moment because a couple of 100 assholes wanted your so called enosis. Whatever you say and all the bullshit you throw out on this forum will only be recognised by all that read it that you are trying to justify your criminal behaviour. The RoC is a EU member now and we live by a certain law and have human rights in place. Your mother country Turkey=Fascist state is braking all laws at the moment.

Dont see anyone running to your rescue wallace, what does that tell you? The "cleansing" you claim was only a result of your actions when Turkish troops were trying to save your arse, if you try to kill me I will try to defend myself and cannot promise that I will not try to kill you.

Rescue will come....patience VP...patience!! Have a look at this you plonker. Cleansing I claim????? All these people were trying to kill you?? Sure they were.....keep on trying to justify your crimes while having a look at this. Real images plonker video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8259503203978535843

The people pay the price for keeping silent, you are now claiming that the majority of GCs did not support enosis when you had a poll in your churches 99% voted for enosis so theres no denying that your ultimate goal was to gift Cyprus to Greece sod the TCs let them take their chance of survival for which we fought tooth and nail and created a safe haven for ourselves, this is what really bugs you.

[shahmaran]

Yeah some other fools here seem to claim that Enosis was a democratic right that was achieved through the votes of "all Cypriots" (:lol:) while this Wallace fool seems to shrink it to "a few hundred" for the sake of argument, where does this hypocrisy end i wonder

[RAFAELLA]

The people pay the price for keeping silent, you are now claiming that the majority of GCs did not support enosis when you had a poll in your churches 99% voted for enosis -that referendum took place in 1950 and not after the establishment of CyR- so theres no denying that your ultimate goal was to gift Cyprus to Greece sod the TCs let them take their chance of survival for which we fought tooth and nail and created a safe haven - - for ourselves, this is what really bugs you.