Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

It is not very difficult to understand but you seem to be blocking out what is obvious even if the North state is reduced to 25% or 29% as in the AP if desired the GCs can use their numerical advantage to gain the balance in their favor and get what they want total control over the whole island leaving us just another minority exposed to a hostile revenge seeking majority. Is this a possiblity? if the answer is yes then how do you expect us to take such a leap of faith.

No VP, it is you who is trying to not accept reality, that the TC's will need to give back much more land than you want to. This is the only way you are ever going to be able to run the north state (TC state) under your control, hence the 5 seats in the Upper House. You are too stuck on the 25%-29% Annan Plan provided for the TC's. The AP was not GOD sent command etched in stone from Mount Sinai. The amount of land you are talking about in giving back, only satisfies 90,000+ GC's as Skipper pointed out which you seemed to have ignored. Another 9%-10% more land needs to be given back to satisfy the remaining 90,000+ GC to return to their properties.

The reason why the AP was able to give the TC's 25%-29% land, was because it had Racist policies in place to only allow 33,000 GC's into the TC state and telling the remaining 60,000+ "too bad", you can never return back to your homes and land. But now that Cyprus is in the EU, there is no way you can prevent the remaining 60,000+ GC's from returning back to their properties with the Freedom of Movement. You have a choice to make, to hang on to 25%-29% of the land in the north state and allow 90,000+ GC's to come and live with you, with them taking active roll in local and national politics that will threaten the Upper House's 5 seats, or you return those lands back and reduce the 90,000+ GC's from the north TC state where you will have complete control of the local and national seats in the government allocated to the north state. There is no other way around this problem, so you do control your own political destiny in having a say so in running the "New Cyprus". You cannot have it both ways, and this is the reality that you need to come to terms with. Once you do, the rest will fall in place nicely for the TC's in the north.

Lets hear your other ways to ensure we guarantee the 5 5 balance, you appear to now understand the importance so that's why you have generated alternatives to address this issue, thank you for showing that you are trying to create a system whereby the TCs are safeguarded against a hostile majority that could exploit their power to the detrement of TCs not allowing them an effective say in the running of a united Cyprus. I still dont feel that the GCs would accept sharing the upper house 5 5 if they do not have the open door you have allowed them to take control of the whole island.

I will get to my other idea in preserving the 5 Upper seats at another time. I'm beginning to see why you are concerned with the numbers of TC's versus the number of GC's, is because the 250,000+ TC's citizens in the north now, are not true figures but a made up numbers that include the settlers. There are no more that 100,000 True TC's in the north, if that, so that's were the problem lies with the TC's by trying to keep up to 29% of the land in the north. The rest of the numbers are settlers (if that)with "TC citizenship's", which will be decided just how many the GC's will accept to be included in the final numbers as TC's for the north. It does not mean all the remaining settlers will go back and that's not the point of this discussion, but they will not have a voting rights to in effect help you keep the 5 Upper House seats intact by keeping 29% of the land in the north.

The Upper House seats cannot be given to each community as their own to be made permanent,then you are in effect denying everyone to participate politically in the state they live in. If it were to be allowed just for the sake of argument to have it the way you want, then that will be a further bad news for thew TC's, because then you will need to then give 5 Upper seats to the Cypriot Armenians and 5 seats to Cypriot Maronites, and it they were to band with the GC's as I'm sure they will, then the Upper seats will be 15 to 5 against the TC's. After all, every community will get 5 seats, so how can you deny them the same rights as given to the GC's and the TC's. You can't use the 1960 constitution as an argument as them not being one of the two "partners", because even AP gave them 1 seat each. Again, you can see clearly of the AP's Racist intentions. There is no other way to deal with this. 5 seats in the Upper House per each state and each state will then become equal partners in the Upper House, and not the communities, or else the Armenians and the Maronites will be able to challenge the TC's and the GC's being discriminated against.

Arent the laws made at the federal level above those of the states? so they influence state legistlators, with your plan the balance is in the favor of the south state so even if the balance went from 10 40 to 5 35 we cannot stop bills being passed, the real test is in the upper house if we lose the balance in favor of the GCs then the past sufferings would have been for nothing. What I am fighting against as a GC adminsitered Democracy where my children will have a voice and not be pushed to one side and discriminated against just for being a Turkish Cypriot. You want to throw them into the fire in the name of democracy and those that want to dominate and control them namely the GCs. You fear and trust the Turks as much as I do the GCs.

Very few laws made in the Federal level will ever effect the 2 states, and if it did, it will effect both the states equally and not one more than the other. The Federal laws and Constitution will be made in protecting all Cypriots, and that is why it is very important for the TC's to get all their concerns regarding "safeguards" in to the Federal Constitution so that they are part of the Federal Laws. You should have more concerns about Presidents Executive Powers that does not require consent from the Upper or Lower Houses. Down the road some more laws can be added or changed, but local state government is where it counts in running your schools, social services, public works, state senate and on and on which the Federal Government has no control over. You should be more concern about the local government seats than the Federal government seats, and you can have them both. All it will take, is by giving the right amount of GC's land back, and those few thousands that will stay or will decide to come later to live in the north state, will have no effect on the north states political system at all. You continual insistence that my plan will leave the door open to be run over by the GC's greater numbers in the future therefore we should avoid being a Democratic country is as far fetched as wanting to leave the planet Earth for another planet, because the Sun will one day swallow us.!

[zan]

Kikapu Annan plan hits a brick wall....


TCs negotiating the GCs have already placed the order for the OXI campaign T-shirts!!!!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu we appear to be running around in circles and what you put forward is nothing more than a smoke screen trying to cloud the fact that the GCs if need be can use their numerical advantage to take control of the whole island whether we are a state of 29% or 10%, by the way im interested to hear what % you think we should accept, anything below 18% brings about the question why should we accept union with all its risks and not negotiate a full break of 2 seperate independent states?

As I said before in general I agree with what you have put forward but the fact that our final safety net which is the 5 seats in the upper house and either a president or vice president can be reduced to dust is not something that would get the support of the TCs and I am one of them.

The lower house is a lost cause as you have given the GCs the advantage from the outset so our only real chance of stopping laws which we oppose is in the upper house and if we lose this then we are to put it crudely fucked.

No amount of local laws will be permitted if at the federal level restrictions have been passed, you cannot just dismiss this very important fact, you continue to paint a picture that the federal structure will have no impect or influence at the local level which is very misleading and incorrect.

A law passed at federal level banning trade with Turkey will effect hundreds of businesses in the north and not the south, can local laws override such an issue? just saying it wont happen doesnt not instill any confidence in any TCs.

Im interested to read the amount of land you see fit for the TCs and how you intend to guarantee our 5 seats and the president vice president balance.[/quote]

[insan]

"BBF" Power Sharing in the "New Cyprus Federation"

The Turkish Cypriots claim that they need "safeguards" in any New Cyprus Government and also have a say so in decision making for their future so that the the majority (GC's) does not push their will on the minority (TC's). This can be achieved if we were to follow some basic Democratic methods practised by the Americans in their running of the Government. For this Federation to work in Cyprus, there has to be certain condition met in order to be successful, therefore compromises need to be made, particularly about land sizes for each state which will be in the New Federation Cyprus. We will discuss the land issues later. Also, for this method to work , almost all of the TC's will need to live in their northern "TC" state.

Unlike the United States where power is shared between political parties based on ideology and not ethnicity, ethnicity power share will be the case in Cyprus, but fortunately, the same democratic principle can apply to power share based on ethnicity for the foreseeable future until the nation of Cyprus is ready and politically mature to rule herself based on ideology and not on ethnicity.

The "political equality" only means one man one vote but for the TC's, they claim in needing "equal power" as it was described in the 1959 Zürich Agreements as a means of "safeguard". Although those agreements were undemocratic, the BBF agreed for a solution for Cyprus can give the TC's "equal power" that comes with True Federation all the same, because all the states in a Federation government enjoy equal representation in the Federal legislator ( Upper House only) where bills are passed to govern the country's business.

Federal Government

Federal Government will have it's own constitution where the constitutional protections for all citizens will be installed . The Federal Constitution will be the law of the land and cannot be overridden by any state constitution written by the north and the south states. Federal Laws will be supreme and protected by the Supreme courts should these Federal Constitution Laws be challenged by individual state or the Upper and Lower House representatives in trying to pass laws that will be in violation of these Federal Laws.. However, Federal laws does not interfere with state laws as long as state laws do not breach any of the Federal Laws. Each state will run their own state as they please within the Federal Laws. This is very important, that states cannot violate any citizens rights by implementing their own laws that would violate the Federal Laws. This is why, any and all concerns of “safeguards” that the TC’s or the GC’s may have, is to have them in the new constitution which cannot be changed unless the constitution is amended, and to amend the constitution, we will have a system where both state will need to approve it.

Federal State Governments

Federal state Governments, both south and north will operate almost as if they are a sovereign nations, but under the umbrella of the Federal Government. Federal States will have control of all institutions within their state, except for Federal institutions, such as Ports, Federal Land and Parks etc, etc, etc.!. However, they will not be able to make any International policies or act outside Federal Governments International Policies. Each Federal States will also have their own State Constitutions and their own State Senate in writing laws and passing bills, their own Supreme Court, and their own leader, in the form of a Governor.

Amending Federal and state Constitutions

To amend the Federal Constitution, both states will need to approve it by 75% majority voted by the state legislators. To amend the state constitution, approved by simple majority of those citizens from that particular state.

Upper and Lower Houses

There will be 2 Houses in the government to pass bills before the President can sign them into law. The elected members of the Lower and the Upper Houses will come from the 2 states in the Federation. The number of members in the Lower House is base purely on the size of the population in each of the 2 states. The Upper House will have exact same number of members from each state regardless of their population size.

Just for the purpose of this exercise I'm going to use the following numbers to show how to work this system of power sharing Democratically. Lower House will have 50 seats and the Upper House will have 10 seats.

Just for practical purposes, lets just say that the north state will have 20% of the population of Cyprus ( TC citizens) and the south state will have 80% of the population of Cyprus (GC citizens). This would give the north state 10 seats and the south 40 seats in the Lower House based on these population numbers. The Upper House will have equal members from each state, therefore 5 seats for the north and 5 seats for the south states. Let me make this very clear that these seats in the Upper and Lower Houses are given to the 2 states and not to each community. These seats belong to the states and not the ethnic groups. The fact that the north state will be mostly TC's and the south state will be mostly GC's, will by default utilize these seats as their own is another matter, but the seats are only given to the states as a matter of allocation in a Federation system, and nothing more.!

President and Vice President

According to the 1960 Constitution in Cyprus, the President has to be a GC and the Vice President to be a TC. At the present talks, it has been suggested to have a "rotating Presidency", where a GC will serve for a while, then a TC, and then a GC and so on. I would even suggest that every Presidential candidate and their Vice Presidential nominee run together as one ticket, so that they are both supported by the people from all the communities. The reason why I bring this up, is because, it is to be part of the power sharing to work with checks and balances that will be explained later, so that the TC's will not need to have a Veto Power rights as before. So lets take it for granted, that there will be a GC and a TC in the positions of a President and a Vice President. The Vice President does not have any executive powers however, but is only a ceremonial position as well as being next in line to be the President should the current President dies or is removed from office.

Selecting the Lower and Upper House Representatives

The Lower House Representatives will be elected from the districts from both the states. There will be 40 districts in the south and 10 districts in the north. Only those living (citizens) in those districts can vote for the House members running in those districts. For the Upper House Representatives, 5 members each for both states, can only run state wide without districts, therefore all citizens from the north can vote to elect their 5 Senators , and the south will also do the same to elect their 5 Senators.

To vote on a bill

In order to vote on a bill in the Lower and the Upper House, certain procedures will need to take place. Bills can be introduced by both the Houses as well as the Executive branch, the President. The bill will need to pass both the Houses by a simple majority before it can be signed into law by the President. This is how it will work.

A bill is drafted by a member of the House. The Speaker of the House will decide to introduce the bill to be voted or not in the Lower House. The speaker of the House will be from the south since they will have the majority with 40 seats, but he or she will not vote on any bills, unless there is a tie, and then they will cast the tie breaking vote. If the bill is introduced to be voted on, then the bill will be voted on by the 49 members in the LH. Only those members who are present and cast a vote will be counted, and if the majority approve, then the bill will go to the Upper House for their vote.

The upper house is where the power is 50-50 between the north and south state. If the bill is not what the TC’s want, this is where they can block it from passing, if the Vice President is a TC, because the Vice President gets to vote only if there is a tie, and if the bill is tied at 5 v 5, then the TC vice President can break the tie by voting NO on the bill and that will be the end of it unless the Upper House can make some changes to please the other sides concerns, and if that is done, it will be sent to the Lower House to be voted on once again , and if passed there, then it will go to the President to sign it. If the Vice President was a GC and casts the tie breaking vote to a YES vote, then the President would be a TC, in which case, he would not sign it into law and the bill will just fail to materialize. If a bill does pass both the Houses and the President refuses to sign it, then the Upper House can overturn the President’s veto by having 6 out of 10 voting to over rule the President and the bill will go forward. In this round of voting, the Vice President will NOT be voting. This is where the main “safeguards” for the TC’s are protected without ever needing a veto vote power.

Bills introduced for voting in the Upper and the Lower Houses are mainly on Federal level matters and not what goes on in individual states, therefore bills passed will effect all citizens and not one state over the other. Most bills will pass after some “Horse Trading” is done between the members of the both Houses, but if a bill is likely to harm one state over the other, then both the south and the north have a way to block it in the Upper House, either by a tie breaking vote by the Vice President or a direct veto by the President, therefore both states have a protection built in, in the Upper House. This is how Federation USA style can be used by Cypriots.

How much land for each Federal States

As I said from the beginning, there needs to be compromises made on land, if the above power sharing to work. In order for the TC’s to maintain all of their seats and 50% power in the Upper House, almost all the TC’s will need to be in the north state, and far less GC’s in the same state. If we take the present land sizes in the north and the south and kept it that way, within a short period of time, the TC’s will lose one or two Upper House seats to the GC’s if 200,000 GC’s (refugees) move to the north where their land is and where they once lived. There will be no other way to overcome this than giving most of the GC land back to them in the north. Do not forget, that being in the EU, there will be complete freedom of movement, therefore neither state will be able to prevent any citizen from living where ever they want. If the TC’s on the other hand lived almost only on their land and made that to be their state in the north, then most of the 200,000 GC refugees will be on the southern state if they returned to their properties in what is the “trnc” today. It may well be, that the north state may not all be in one piece, but in 2 or 3 pieces. Also, it is possible, that some of the GC land given back may also be in large parcels and not actually connected to the southern state. For instance, Kokkina will remain part of the northern state, but will be a separate parcel of land than the rest of the northern state. Same if the Karpaz region was returned, that it may be a separate parcel of land than the rest of the southern state. Again, compromises needs to be made. For the TC’s, they need to maintain their population in one state and land that they own, or else they will risk losing their Upper House 50% power to the GC’s, because they will also be able to vote and run for office in the state that they live in where they pay their taxes to the local government. There is no way to prevent this from happening if the TC’s do not give back substantial land back to the GC’s. I can’t stress this point enough.

Very weak and well known trojan horse. It has no chance not to be detected by any AV or FW. How funny is that u granted a symbolic veto right for a TC vice president that there will never be such a 5 vs 5 tie in an ethno-majoritarian Hellenic nation state. Anyway... good luck for u with ur tricky and sneaky plans.

[Kikapu]

Very weak and well known trojan horse. It has no chance not to be detected by any AV or FW. How funny is that u granted a symbolic veto right for a TC vice president that there will never be such a 5 vs 5 tie in an ethno-majoritarian Hellenic nation state. Anyway... good luck for u with ur tricky and sneaky plans.

The fact that you do not understand the basic concept of this plan, even after mulling over it for more than a week, tells me that you are either not able to comprehend it, or/and not interested in a fair settlement, because it would mean giving back almost 50% of the present land in the north back to it's righful owners. There is no Trojan horse, no symbolic veto vote by a TC vice President/ President, or any other sneaky trickery.

You are now exposing yourself more and more that you are nothing more than another cheap NeoPartitionist hoping to grab as much land as possible while waiting for recognition, therefore any Fair and Just plan will be rejected by your type. Perhaps it's the reason why you did not answer the question whether you have bought any stolen GC land in the north. Perhaps in order to keep it, peace does not suit your plans. Perhaps you put more importance on your possible illegal gains than your country. Only you can answer these questions Insan, but do us a favour and don't come here and give us your silly excuses with what you say is wrong with this plan.

Hopefully there won't be too many 5-5 ties because that would mean that members are voting on something that they agree to to benefit Cyprus. If and when there is a tie, then equal veto structures are built in to protect both sides. If you cannot see that, then blame yourself and not the plan.

[Viewpoint]

Very weak and well known trojan horse. It has no chance not to be detected by any AV or FW. How funny is that u granted a symbolic veto right for a TC vice president that there will never be such a 5 vs 5 tie in an ethno-majoritarian Hellenic nation state. Anyway... good luck for u with ur tricky and sneaky plans.

The fact that you do not understand the basic concept of this plan, even after mulling over it for more than a week, tells me that you are either not able to comprehend it, or/and not interested in a fair settlement, because it would mean giving back almost 50% of the present land in the north back to it's righful owners. There is no Trojan horse, no symbolic veto vote by a TC vice President/ President, or any other sneaky trickery.

You are now exposing yourself more and more that you are nothing more than another cheap NeoPartitionist hoping to grab as much land as possible while waiting for recognition, therefore any Fair and Just plan will be rejected by your type. Perhaps it's the reason why you did not answer the question whether you have bought any stolen GC land in the north. Perhaps in order to keep it, peace does not suit your plans. Perhaps you put more importance on your possible illegal gains than your country. Only you can answer these questions Insan, but do us a favour and don't come here and give us your silly excuses with what you say is wrong with this plan.

Hopefully there won't be too many 5-5 ties because that would mean that members are voting on something that they agree to to benefit Cyprus. If and when there is a tie, then equal veto structures are built in to protect both sides. If you cannot see that, then blame yourself and not the plan.

Kikapu why do you have to always take the piss when reponding to someones post who does not see eye to eye with you? You are not god and you do not know everything, people are entitled to different viewpoints.

Im still waiting for your comments regarding how we can be guaranteed our 5 seats in the upper house and veto right either by a TC vice president/president.

[insan]

Perhaps it's the reason why you did not answer the question whether you have bought any stolen GC land in the north. Perhaps in order to keep it, peace does not suit your plans.

I neither own just a single piece of property belongs to GCs nor TCs, Armenians or Maronites. In my whole life time, where ever i lay my hat, that's been my rental home.

[Kikapu]

Very weak and well known trojan horse. It has no chance not to be detected by any AV or FW. How funny is that u granted a symbolic veto right for a TC vice president that there will never be such a 5 vs 5 tie in an ethno-majoritarian Hellenic nation state. Anyway... good luck for u with ur tricky and sneaky plans.

The fact that you do not understand the basic concept of this plan, even after mulling over it for more than a week, tells me that you are either not able to comprehend it, or/and not interested in a fair settlement, because it would mean giving back almost 50% of the present land in the north back to it's righful owners. There is no Trojan horse, no symbolic veto vote by a TC vice President/ President, or any other sneaky trickery.

You are now exposing yourself more and more that you are nothing more than another cheap NeoPartitionist hoping to grab as much land as possible while waiting for recognition, therefore any Fair and Just plan will be rejected by your type. Perhaps it's the reason why you did not answer the question whether you have bought any stolen GC land in the north. Perhaps in order to keep it, peace does not suit your plans. Perhaps you put more importance on your possible illegal gains than your country. Only you can answer these questions Insan, but do us a favour and don't come here and give us your silly excuses with what you say is wrong with this plan.

Hopefully there won't be too many 5-5 ties because that would mean that members are voting on something that they agree to to benefit Cyprus. If and when there is a tie, then equal veto structures are built in to protect both sides. If you cannot see that, then blame yourself and not the plan.

Kikapu why do you have to always take the piss when reponding to someones post who does not see eye to eye with you? You are not god and you do not know everything, people are entitled to different viewpoints.

Im still waiting for your comments regarding how we can be guaranteed our 5 seats in the upper house and veto right either by a TC vice president/president.

Insan had decided that he wants to play tough on another thread and when he got smacked by me, he has decided to come over here to show me what he is made off by being provocative, and got smacked again. Perhaps you should have a talk with Insan to be respectful of others, and when he is not, expect to be smacked again.!

I'm sorry, VP, but I have spent too much time on other silly topics lately, and as a result, I have yet to answer yours on here, and will do so soon. But VP, you already know what need to be done to secure those 5 seats to the TC state, don't you? This is the part you have to decide as to what is most important for you, the security of those 5 seats or more land. I had made that point very clear from the beginning, that the price was going to be very high and compromises will need to be made by both sides to make this plan work.

I will tell you what I think and what will be good and bad for the TC state by looking at both sides of the coin.!

[insan]

Very weak and well known trojan horse. It has no chance not to be detected by any AV or FW. How funny is that u granted a symbolic veto right for a TC vice president that there will never be such a 5 vs 5 tie in an ethno-majoritarian Hellenic nation state. Anyway... good luck for u with ur tricky and sneaky plans.

The fact that you do not understand the basic concept of this plan, even after mulling over it for more than a week, tells me that you are either not able to comprehend it, or/and not interested in a fair settlement, because it would mean giving back almost 50% of the present land in the north back to it's righful owners. There is no Trojan horse, no symbolic veto vote by a TC vice President/ President, or any other sneaky trickery.

You are now exposing yourself more and more that you are nothing more than another cheap NeoPartitionist hoping to grab as much land as possible while waiting for recognition, therefore any Fair and Just plan will be rejected by your type. Perhaps it's the reason why you did not answer the question whether you have bought any stolen GC land in the north. Perhaps in order to keep it, peace does not suit your plans. Perhaps you put more importance on your possible illegal gains than your country. Only you can answer these questions Insan, but do us a favour and don't come here and give us your silly excuses with what you say is wrong with this plan.

Hopefully there won't be too many 5-5 ties because that would mean that members are voting on something that they agree to to benefit Cyprus. If and when there is a tie, then equal veto structures are built in to protect both sides. If you cannot see that, then blame yourself and not the plan.

Kikapu why do you have to always take the piss when reponding to someones post who does not see eye to eye with you? You are not god and you do not know everything, people are entitled to different viewpoints.

Im still waiting for your comments regarding how we can be guaranteed our 5 seats in the upper house and veto right either by a TC vice president/president.

Insan had decided that he wants to play tough on another thread and when he got smacked by me, he has decided to come over here to show me what he is made off by being provocative, and got smacked again. Perhaps you should have a talk with Insan to be respectful of others, and when he is not, expect to be smacked again.!

[DT.]

Kikapu Annan plan hits a brick wall....


TCs negotiating the GCs have already placed the order for the OXI campaign T-shirts!!!!

I've already said I can personally live with this plan sweetie, you're the one who's rejected it.