Cyprus-Forum.com

[CBBB]

A law passed at federal level banning trade with Turkey will effect hundreds of businesses in the north and not the south, can local laws override such an issue? just saying it wont happen doesnt not instill any confidence in any TCs.

Any law banning trade with Turkey would be against EU free trade requlations which currently cover Turkey. The only ones at the moment not enforcing these correctly are in fact Turkey!

[Viewpoint]

Very weak and well known trojan horse. It has no chance not to be detected by any AV or FW. How funny is that u granted a symbolic veto right for a TC vice president that there will never be such a 5 vs 5 tie in an ethno-majoritarian Hellenic nation state. Anyway... good luck for u with ur tricky and sneaky plans.

The fact that you do not understand the basic concept of this plan, even after mulling over it for more than a week, tells me that you are either not able to comprehend it, or/and not interested in a fair settlement, because it would mean giving back almost 50% of the present land in the north back to it's righful owners. There is no Trojan horse, no symbolic veto vote by a TC vice President/ President, or any other sneaky trickery.

You are now exposing yourself more and more that you are nothing more than another cheap NeoPartitionist hoping to grab as much land as possible while waiting for recognition, therefore any Fair and Just plan will be rejected by your type. Perhaps it's the reason why you did not answer the question whether you have bought any stolen GC land in the north. Perhaps in order to keep it, peace does not suit your plans. Perhaps you put more importance on your possible illegal gains than your country. Only you can answer these questions Insan, but do us a favour and don't come here and give us your silly excuses with what you say is wrong with this plan.

Hopefully there won't be too many 5-5 ties because that would mean that members are voting on something that they agree to to benefit Cyprus. If and when there is a tie, then equal veto structures are built in to protect both sides. If you cannot see that, then blame yourself and not the plan.

Kikapu why do you have to always take the piss when reponding to someones post who does not see eye to eye with you? You are not god and you do not know everything, people are entitled to different viewpoints.

Im still waiting for your comments regarding how we can be guaranteed our 5 seats in the upper house and veto right either by a TC vice president/president.

Insan had decided that he wants to play tough on another thread and when he got smacked by me, he has decided to come over here to show me what he is made off by being provocative, and got smacked again. Perhaps you should have a talk with Insan to be respectful of others, and when he is not, expect to be smacked again.!

I'm sorry, VP, but I have spent too much time on other silly topics lately, and as a result, I have yet to answer yours on here, and will do so soon. But VP, you already know what need to be done to secure those 5 seats to the TC state, don't you? This is the part you have to decide as to what is most important for you, the security of those 5 seats or more land. I had made that point very clear from the beginning, that the price was going to be very high and compromises will need to be made by both sides to make this plan work.

I will tell you what I think and what will be good and bad for the TC state by looking at both sides of the coin.!

Its not my place to smack or tell people what to think, I put my opinion forward you dont have to agree and we have not agreed on may things this does not mean you need to smacked.

I will await your response but the issue about land does not make any difference as the GCs have the numerical advantage to swamp an TC state regardless of size.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu we appear to be running around in circles and what you put forward is nothing more than a smoke screen trying to cloud the fact that the GCs if need be can use their numerical advantage to take control of the whole island whether we are a state of 29% or 10%, by the way im interested to hear what % you think we should accept, anything below 18% brings about the question why should we accept union with all its risks and not negotiate a full break of 2 seperate independent states?

We are going in circles, only because you want to, and not because you need to. Once almost all of the 200,000 GC's have been returned to their properties and their land then becomes of the GC state, whether in parcels or not, you may end up enticing the GC's to come and live in the TC state, because you will need more people than you will have, assuming most settlers getting reinstated back to Turkey and only leaving the 50,000 in Cyprus, and presumably, as citizens of Cyprus.

As to what percentage we should accept, all depends how badly you want those 5 seats in the Upper House to remain in the hands of the TC's. You tell me, VP, what would you give to keep those 5 seats? How much land that does not belong to you are you willing to give back to have as few GC's as possible in the TC state..? It may be 20%, 18% or 15%. Only you can decide, so that you can sleep at night knowing those 5 seats are safe.

Personally, I do not give too much importance to the 5 seats, because all the bills that goes to be signed by the President, are loaded with items that both the TC and GC state will put into the bill, so even if the upper house loses one or two seats to a GC in the TC state, which will not happen under the conditions I have put in place, TC will get most of what they want, as long as the President has not been given a "line item veto" which means that he cannot just simply take out what he does not like from the bill before signing it. Since I'm not worried about the upper house’s 5 seats, I would be happy for the present lines to become the state lines, because it would benefit the north state to have as many people and land as possible to become an economically successful, but then you will have to accept the potential 200,000 GC's moving back to their land in the TC state, who will then be almost at 50-50 with the TC's, which will mean that you will not have monopoly on political power in the north. But at much reduced land, say 18%, you will not have enough people to help your state to grow too much. My guess is, you will run into a budget deficit most of the time, which will mean cutting public services and layoffs, because there is no way you will be able to support the north state with the amount of income from taxes or from business, which means more TC's might move to the south to find work, or at least commute to the south to find work. This is the Good News Bad News situation for you. The more you put importance on the 5 seats, the less people you will have in the north state.

As I said before in general I agree with what you have put forward but the fact that our final safety net which is the 5 seats in the upper house and either a president or vice president can be reduced to dust is not something that would get the support of the TCs and I am one of them.

Then give back as much land back that does not belong to you, back to the GC's, so that they will not have a reason to come and live with you, therefore there is no threat of losing any of those 5 seats, and more importantly, any of the local state seats. The local seats are much more important that the seats in the Federal level to average person who uses them everyday of their lives, which concern about schools, police, hospital services, roads, public works and so on. This is where the resident’s taxpayer’s money goes and that's what they care about. You are yet to give me one good example as to what would happen, if the TC's were to lose one seat in the upper house, that the TC's would be affected. The President who has a great deal of executive powers can pass laws that does not require the Upper or the Lower House, and cannot be vetoed. You spend too much time worrying about these seats, but luck for you, you do control your own destiny, the question is, which will you choose, more land, or more GC's in the TC state.

The lower house is not really a lost cause, because as I stated already, that any bill can have several items on it that will benefit both communities, because each state put things they want that will ride "piggyback" on the main bill, hence the fact, it is called "PORK". When one item passes, all items pass when the bill is signed. Just don't give the President that all powerful "line item veto" where he can remove all the "PORK" that he does not like, or that he leaves some but takes out what may effect the north state. This is how "horse trading" works in the Federal Government. If I give you this to your state, what will you give me
for my state.

The lower house is a lost cause as you have given the GCs the advantage from the outset so our only real chance of stopping laws which we oppose is in the upper house and if we lose this then we are to put it crudely fucked.

It is a total loss as far as stopping something that you don't like in the lower house. But the members from both these houses are not enemies for god sake. They are there to do the peoples business who elected them to do. They are not there to screw the TC's or the TC state, because there will be GC's living in the north state also. I believe the only thing that concerns you the most, is whether the TC's will be able to stop the GC's from veto voting Turkey's EU entry. I don't even know if this is decided at the Upper and Lower houses or just within the executive branch level, which means you have no way of stopping it if that should be the case. Hopefully during these peace talks Turkey is an accommodator toward peace, so that it won't be an issue later.

No amount of local laws will be permitted if at the federal level restrictions have been passed, you cannot just dismiss this very important fact, you continue to paint a picture that the federal structure will have no impect or influence at the local level which is very misleading and incorrect.

A law passed at federal level banning trade with Turkey will effect hundreds of businesses in the north and not the south, can local laws override such an issue? just saying it wont happen doesnt not instill any confidence in any TCs.

There are laws that the 2 houses can pass and then there are certain laws at certain conditions (rare) that the executive branch will pass without any input from both the houses. Cyprus will need to follow trade rules that EU has with other countries, so where is the worry. Any laws passed by both the houses, will not violate any of the Federal Laws. If Turkey violates the reciprocal laws, then it is the EU more likely to deal with Turkey than Cyprus. This is the reason why Turkey needs to comply with EU's laws for Turkey to open her port to Cyprus by middle of December this year

Im interested to read the amount of land you see fit for the TCs and how you intend to guarantee our 5 seats and the president vice president balance.

I'm happy with what ever you need to give back for you to feel comfortable that you will not lose those 5 seats in the upper house. You know what it will take and how much. It’s like asking how long is a piece of string. Well, it is as long a string as you need to get the job done, and the same applies to you.

I forgot to answer this statement from your first paragraph above that if you were to go down to 18% of land, then why not agree on a partition and go our own separate ways. That is always an option I suppose, except the negotiating leaders have never brought it up. Talat talks about something as close to a agree partition, but he never states it, maybe because he knows, that if the north were to become independent from rest of Cyprus, they will not become independent from Turkey, and there is no guarantee that the north will ever, along with Turkey will become a EU members, so what have you gained by becoming independent state. What is it that you cannot do in a United Cyprus that you will be able to do as an Independent state.? My personal feeling on this issue is, you will be able to do more as part of Cyprus than without, because you will never be independent, and I don't care how much you love Turkey and the settlers, you will think differently when they start ruling you in the north with their greater numbers. You will have no way of stopping it. Besides, you may be willing to give up on 82% of your country of Cyprus, but don't be so sure that the GC's are willing to give up on their 18% of Cyprus.

I will have another post soon explaning on how to help the TC's keep those 5 seats in the upper house. The biggest help of course, is to return back as much GC land as possible.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu we appear to be running around in circles and what you put forward is nothing more than a smoke screen trying to cloud the fact that the GCs if need be can use their numerical advantage to take control of the whole island whether we are a state of 29% or 10%, by the way im interested to hear what % you think we should accept, anything below 18% brings about the question why should we accept union with all its risks and not negotiate a full break of 2 seperate independent states?

We are going in circles, only because you want to, and not because you need to. Once almost all of the 200,000 GC's have been returned to their properties and their land then becomes of the GC state, whether in parcels or not, you may end up enticing the GC's to come and live in the TC state, because you will need more people than you will have, assuming most settlers getting reinstated back to Turkey and only leaving the 50,000 in Cyprus, and presumably, as citizens of Cyprus.

As to what percentage we should accept, all depends how badly you want those 5 seats in the Upper House to remain in the hands of the TC's. You tell me, VP, what would you give to keep those 5 seats? How much land that does not belong to you are you willing to give back to have as few GC's as possible in the TC state..? It may be 20%, 18% or 15%. Only you can decide, so that you can sleep at night knowing those 5 seats are safe.

Personally, I do not give too much importance to the 5 seats, because all the bills that goes to be signed by the President, are loaded with items that both the TC and GC state will put into the bill, so even if the upper house loses one or two seats to a GC in the TC state, which will not happen under the conditions I have put in place, TC will get most of what they want, as long as the President has not been given a "line item veto" which means that he cannot just simply take out what he does not like from the bill before signing it. Since I'm not worried about the upper house’s 5 seats, I would be happy for the present lines to become the state lines, because it would benefit the north state to have as many people and land as possible to become an economically successful, but then you will have to accept the potential 200,000 GC's moving back to their land in the TC state, who will then be almost at 50-50 with the TC's, which will mean that you will not have monopoly on political power in the north. But at much reduced land, say 18%, you will not have enough people to help your state to grow too much. My guess is, you will run into a budget deficit most of the time, which will mean cutting public services and layoffs, because there is no way you will be able to support the north state with the amount of income from taxes or from business, which means more TC's might move to the south to find work, or at least commute to the south to find work. This is the Good News Bad News situation for you. The more you put importance on the 5 seats, the less people you will have in the north state.

As I said before in general I agree with what you have put forward but the fact that our final safety net which is the 5 seats in the upper house and either a president or vice president can be reduced to dust is not something that would get the support of the TCs and I am one of them.

Then give back as much land back that does not belong to you, back to the GC's, so that they will not have a reason to come and live with you, therefore there is no threat of losing any of those 5 seats, and more importantly, any of the local state seats. The local seats are much more important that the seats in the Federal level to average person who uses them everyday of their lives, which concern about schools, police, hospital services, roads, public works and so on. This is where the resident’s taxpayer’s money goes and that's what they care about. You are yet to give me one good example as to what would happen, if the TC's were to lose one seat in the upper house, that the TC's would be affected. The President who has a great deal of executive powers can pass laws that does not require the Upper or the Lower House, and cannot be vetoed. You spend too much time worrying about these seats, but luck for you, you do control your own destiny, the question is, which will you choose, more land, or more GC's in the TC state.

The lower house is not really a lost cause, because as I stated already, that any bill can have several items on it that will benefit both communities, because each state put things they want that will ride "piggyback" on the main bill, hence the fact, it is called "PORK". When one item passes, all items pass when the bill is signed. Just don't give the President that all powerful "line item veto" where he can remove all the "PORK" that he does not like, or that he leaves some but takes out what may effect the north state. This is how "horse trading" works in the Federal Government. If I give you this to your state, what will you give me
for my state.

The lower house is a lost cause as you have given the GCs the advantage from the outset so our only real chance of stopping laws which we oppose is in the upper house and if we lose this then we are to put it crudely fucked.

It is a total loss as far as stopping something that you don't like in the lower house. But the members from both these houses are not enemies for god sake. They are there to do the peoples business who elected them to do. They are not there to screw the TC's or the TC state, because there will be GC's living in the north state also. I believe the only thing that concerns you the most, is whether the TC's will be able to stop the GC's from veto voting Turkey's EU entry. I don't even know if this is decided at the Upper and Lower houses or just within the executive branch level, which means you have no way of stopping it if that should be the case. Hopefully during these peace talks Turkey is an accommodator toward peace, so that it won't be an issue later.

No amount of local laws will be permitted if at the federal level restrictions have been passed, you cannot just dismiss this very important fact, you continue to paint a picture that the federal structure will have no impect or influence at the local level which is very misleading and incorrect.

A law passed at federal level banning trade with Turkey will effect hundreds of businesses in the north and not the south, can local laws override such an issue? just saying it wont happen doesnt not instill any confidence in any TCs.

There are laws that the 2 houses can pass and then there are certain laws at certain conditions (rare) that the executive branch will pass without any input from both the houses. Cyprus will need to follow trade rules that EU has with other countries, so where is the worry. Any laws passed by both the houses, will not violate any of the Federal Laws. If Turkey violates the reciprocal laws, then it is the EU more likely to deal with Turkey than Cyprus. This is the reason why Turkey needs to comply with EU's laws for Turkey to open her port to Cyprus by middle of December this year

Im interested to read the amount of land you see fit for the TCs and how you intend to guarantee our 5 seats and the president vice president balance.

I'm happy with what ever you need to give back for you to feel comfortable that you will not lose those 5 seats in the upper house. You know what it will take and how much. It’s like asking how long is a piece of string. Well, it is as long a string as you need to get the job done, and the same applies to you.

I forgot to answer this statement from your first paragraph above that if you were to go down to 18% of land, then why not agree on a partition and go our own separate ways. That is always an option I suppose, except the negotiating leaders have never brought it up. Talat talks about something as close to a agree partition, but he never states it, maybe because he knows, that if the north were to become independent from rest of Cyprus, they will not become independent from Turkey, and there is no guarantee that the north will ever, along with Turkey will become a EU members, so what have you gained by becoming independent state. What is it that you cannot do in a United Cyprus that you will be able to do as an Independent state.? My personal feeling on this issue is, you will be able to do more as part of Cyprus than without, because you will never be independent, and I don't care how much you love Turkey and the settlers, you will think differently when they start ruling you in the north with their greater numbers. You will have no way of stopping it. Besides, you may be willing to give up on 82% of your country of Cyprus, but don't be so sure that the GC's are willing to give up on their 18% of Cyprus.

I will have another post soon explaning on how to help the TC's keep those 5 seats in the upper house. The biggest help of course, is to return back as much GC land as possible.

Kikapu you have written a great deal here but to me its a load of rubbish, crap that is like small print that in effect hands the island over to control of the GCs. You have made no effecort what so ever in explaining how we guarantee an effective role in a united Cyprus where there are no doors leaft wide open for GCs to exploit and control the whole island without us.

Im very disappointed in this post you have not progressed one iota. Where is the GC input here???? why are they avoiding this thread???

[Kikapu]

VP,

I have shown you how to have 50% power at Federal State level with a veto power by a TC vice President/President, and if you do not want to put the work it requires to achieve it, then you should blame yourself for not taking the steps required to get what you want. There are no guarantees, that even if you had all 5 seats in the hands of the TC’s, that they will all vote the same way you want them to do in the Upper House. If that was the case, then there wouldn’t be need to have elections. You can just hand pick 5 TC’s and that will be that. You need to allow people to make the choice as to who should represent them. If there were 200,000 TC’s in the TC state and only 200 GC’s, and the TC’s would choose a GC that they really like and believe it will serve their state well, say someone like Bananiot voted in to one of the 5 seats, just because they like his/her politics, how can you stop that from happening. How can you guarantee me, that that wont happen. The truth is, you cannot, but in your heart you believe, that that will never happen, Bananiot or no Bananiot. Well, the same with me. I have given you my plan and if you follow it as I described, you will have all 5 Upper House seats in the TC’s hands. I cannot give you a certificate of guarantee, just as you cannot give me a certificate of guarantee, that some Bananiot kind of GC who is loved by the TC’s will not one day be voted by the TC’s.

Cypriots will need to take political positions based on political ideology eventually, which is what we do everyday anyway, rather than politics based on ethnic lines, which is what you are asking for, that is a disaster waiting to happen.......again, as we have found out from past experience, that we wanted to have a government based on ethnic lines. It just doesn’t work. We are either all Cypriots with different political ideology that from time to time it changes its positions, or that we are strictly separate from this practice of political ideology and are unison thinking along ethnic lines as me TC, you GC.!. If I may use a metaphor, True Democracy is much like a Desert Sand Dunes, and as with all sand dunes, they shift from time to time. The Sand Dunes represent Democracy, but the landscape constantly changes, and that change is what the political ideology change is in people. Nothing remains constant, because just as the Sand Dunes changes its shape and size, but it is still a Sand Dune and it is still a Democracy.

People who live in a Democracy are the ones with their own political ideology, and that is how the political lines are drawn that allow Freedom of Speech to be voiced, but if you insist that we draw the political lines based on ethnicity, you are then no longer talking about Democracy. I'm only interested in talking about Democracy and how best we can apply it, so that the minority TC's are on equal footing politically with the GC’s based on the "BBF" parameters we have been given. You keep asking for guarantees on how the TC's can keep their 5 seats in the Upper House. There are only two guarantees in Democracy and life in general. Taxes and Death.! If you are a Swiss, you are also guaranteed the trains will run on time.! The only guarantees you should ask for in a Democracy are Freedom of Speech and Human Rights, and all your constitutional rights, because seats in the government are not guaranteed to specific groups, because only in Dictatorships where the Dictator can guarantee anything, that you will do what ever he says or you are dead.!

The only way to secure your seats in the government is playing the best hand possible to ensure that you can maintain those seats in the most legal and Democratic way. But Democracy is neither free nor cheap. In fact, it is darn expensive, and not only in treasure, but at times, in blood also. So when you ask for guarantees in wanting to keep the 5 Upper seats in the hands of the TC's, you have to bear in mind what the costs will be. In any case, those Upper House 5 seats belong to the TC state and not to a TC community, because others well may be living in the TC state and as equal citizens, they too have rights to those 5 seats given to the TC state. As with all politics, or a game of Chess, you want to play the game in a way that you can get the best results for your efforts. Just like the shifting Sand Dunes, the Lower and Upper House seats will also try to shift, that will change the political landscape, and if that were to happen, it is not the end of the world, because in a Democracy and just like the Desert Sand Dunes, they will shift again going the other way, which will once again give another result and another political landscape at another time. This is Democracy at work and if we are to live in a Democratic Cyprus, this is what you need to accept, and if this is not what you are willing to accept, then we are wasting our time here, but if you also want to be part of Europe and the EU, then you really do not have any alternative for the New United Cyprus.

[insan]

VP,
The only way to secure your seats in the government is playing the best hand possible to ensure that you can maintain those seats in the most legal and Democratic way. But Democracy is neither free nor cheap.

I'd like to order 1 democracy especially marinated by u. How much shall i pay?

[DT.]

Kikapu we appear to be running around in circles and what you put forward is nothing more than a smoke screen trying to cloud the fact that the GCs if need be can use their numerical advantage to take control of the whole island whether we are a state of 29% or 10%, by the way im interested to hear what % you think we should accept, anything below 18% brings about the question why should we accept union with all its risks and not negotiate a full break of 2 seperate independent states?

We are going in circles, only because you want to, and not because you need to. Once almost all of the 200,000 GC's have been returned to their properties and their land then becomes of the GC state, whether in parcels or not, you may end up enticing the GC's to come and live in the TC state, because you will need more people than you will have, assuming most settlers getting reinstated back to Turkey and only leaving the 50,000 in Cyprus, and presumably, as citizens of Cyprus.

As to what percentage we should accept, all depends how badly you want those 5 seats in the Upper House to remain in the hands of the TC's. You tell me, VP, what would you give to keep those 5 seats? How much land that does not belong to you are you willing to give back to have as few GC's as possible in the TC state..? It may be 20%, 18% or 15%. Only you can decide, so that you can sleep at night knowing those 5 seats are safe.

Personally, I do not give too much importance to the 5 seats, because all the bills that goes to be signed by the President, are loaded with items that both the TC and GC state will put into the bill, so even if the upper house loses one or two seats to a GC in the TC state, which will not happen under the conditions I have put in place, TC will get most of what they want, as long as the President has not been given a "line item veto" which means that he cannot just simply take out what he does not like from the bill before signing it. Since I'm not worried about the upper house’s 5 seats, I would be happy for the present lines to become the state lines, because it would benefit the north state to have as many people and land as possible to become an economically successful, but then you will have to accept the potential 200,000 GC's moving back to their land in the TC state, who will then be almost at 50-50 with the TC's, which will mean that you will not have monopoly on political power in the north. But at much reduced land, say 18%, you will not have enough people to help your state to grow too much. My guess is, you will run into a budget deficit most of the time, which will mean cutting public services and layoffs, because there is no way you will be able to support the north state with the amount of income from taxes or from business, which means more TC's might move to the south to find work, or at least commute to the south to find work. This is the Good News Bad News situation for you. The more you put importance on the 5 seats, the less people you will have in the north state.

As I said before in general I agree with what you have put forward but the fact that our final safety net which is the 5 seats in the upper house and either a president or vice president can be reduced to dust is not something that would get the support of the TCs and I am one of them.

Then give back as much land back that does not belong to you, back to the GC's, so that they will not have a reason to come and live with you, therefore there is no threat of losing any of those 5 seats, and more importantly, any of the local state seats. The local seats are much more important that the seats in the Federal level to average person who uses them everyday of their lives, which concern about schools, police, hospital services, roads, public works and so on. This is where the resident’s taxpayer’s money goes and that's what they care about. You are yet to give me one good example as to what would happen, if the TC's were to lose one seat in the upper house, that the TC's would be affected. The President who has a great deal of executive powers can pass laws that does not require the Upper or the Lower House, and cannot be vetoed. You spend too much time worrying about these seats, but luck for you, you do control your own destiny, the question is, which will you choose, more land, or more GC's in the TC state.

The lower house is not really a lost cause, because as I stated already, that any bill can have several items on it that will benefit both communities, because each state put things they want that will ride "piggyback" on the main bill, hence the fact, it is called "PORK". When one item passes, all items pass when the bill is signed. Just don't give the President that all powerful "line item veto" where he can remove all the "PORK" that he does not like, or that he leaves some but takes out what may effect the north state. This is how "horse trading" works in the Federal Government. If I give you this to your state, what will you give me
for my state.

The lower house is a lost cause as you have given the GCs the advantage from the outset so our only real chance of stopping laws which we oppose is in the upper house and if we lose this then we are to put it crudely fucked.

It is a total loss as far as stopping something that you don't like in the lower house. But the members from both these houses are not enemies for god sake. They are there to do the peoples business who elected them to do. They are not there to screw the TC's or the TC state, because there will be GC's living in the north state also. I believe the only thing that concerns you the most, is whether the TC's will be able to stop the GC's from veto voting Turkey's EU entry. I don't even know if this is decided at the Upper and Lower houses or just within the executive branch level, which means you have no way of stopping it if that should be the case. Hopefully during these peace talks Turkey is an accommodator toward peace, so that it won't be an issue later.

No amount of local laws will be permitted if at the federal level restrictions have been passed, you cannot just dismiss this very important fact, you continue to paint a picture that the federal structure will have no impect or influence at the local level which is very misleading and incorrect.

A law passed at federal level banning trade with Turkey will effect hundreds of businesses in the north and not the south, can local laws override such an issue? just saying it wont happen doesnt not instill any confidence in any TCs.

There are laws that the 2 houses can pass and then there are certain laws at certain conditions (rare) that the executive branch will pass without any input from both the houses. Cyprus will need to follow trade rules that EU has with other countries, so where is the worry. Any laws passed by both the houses, will not violate any of the Federal Laws. If Turkey violates the reciprocal laws, then it is the EU more likely to deal with Turkey than Cyprus. This is the reason why Turkey needs to comply with EU's laws for Turkey to open her port to Cyprus by middle of December this year

Im interested to read the amount of land you see fit for the TCs and how you intend to guarantee our 5 seats and the president vice president balance.

I'm happy with what ever you need to give back for you to feel comfortable that you will not lose those 5 seats in the upper house. You know what it will take and how much. It’s like asking how long is a piece of string. Well, it is as long a string as you need to get the job done, and the same applies to you.

I forgot to answer this statement from your first paragraph above that if you were to go down to 18% of land, then why not agree on a partition and go our own separate ways. That is always an option I suppose, except the negotiating leaders have never brought it up. Talat talks about something as close to a agree partition, but he never states it, maybe because he knows, that if the north were to become independent from rest of Cyprus, they will not become independent from Turkey, and there is no guarantee that the north will ever, along with Turkey will become a EU members, so what have you gained by becoming independent state. What is it that you cannot do in a United Cyprus that you will be able to do as an Independent state.? My personal feeling on this issue is, you will be able to do more as part of Cyprus than without, because you will never be independent, and I don't care how much you love Turkey and the settlers, you will think differently when they start ruling you in the north with their greater numbers. You will have no way of stopping it. Besides, you may be willing to give up on 82% of your country of Cyprus, but don't be so sure that the GC's are willing to give up on their 18% of Cyprus.

I will have another post soon explaning on how to help the TC's keep those 5 seats in the upper house. The biggest help of course, is to return back as much GC land as possible.

Kikapu you have written a great deal hhere but to me its a load of rubbish, crap that is like small print that in effect hands the island over to control of the GCs. You have made no effecort what so ever in explaining how we guarantee an effective role in a united Cyprus where there are no doors leaft wide open for GCs to exploit and control the whole island without us.

Im very disappointed in this post you have not progressed one iota. Where is the GC input here???? why are they avoiding this thread???

Nothing much to contirbute here vp. Kikapu has been trying to explain to you over and over that you have a dilemma on your hands. Give land up and you will have less land and less population but it will ensure that your state is as homogenously made up of TC's as possible. Thus ensuring your 5 seats. If you do not give up the land and GC's decide to move into the north state then you will run the risk of being outvoted in both states.

The problem I think however is not about keeping the GC's out of the north state in order to guarantee the 5 seats but in keeping the TC's IN the north state when there will be better opportunities in the south state. Most probably the north will develop into Cyprus's Florida where nothing much gets done but a lot of pensioners have chosen the peace and quiet to retire there.

To summarise.....this plan has left out a lot of fundamental principles which are iportant to the Cypriots, but it is something this GC would vote for.

[Kikapu]

Where is the GC input here???? why are they avoiding this thread???

Perhaps the GC's know that this plan gives the TC's 18% a solid 50% power with built in Veto vote, which replaces the advantages the TC's had in the 1960 Constitution, except this time you have a TC state, it is Democratic and they can no longer claim that majority should have the majority of the power. I'm sure they would prefer to have it in another way, which would be "Proportionate Representation" which means 82%-18% in the government. Perhaps they can see that my plan gives the TC's equal power in the Upper House despite being at 4:1 ratio to the GC's and are not too happy about it, except our good friend, DT. Perhaps they see something that you don't see. Perhaps this plan spoils your real intentions, which is partition, in which case, I cannot help you, but you can no longer claim that you do not want to be ruled by the GC's, because you do not need to be, because this plan gives you a 50-50 share in the government. All you have to do, is give back land that does not belong to you and agree to swap some TC land from the south for GC land in the north, and the rest will work itself out. One thing you will not be able to do, is to keep all the GC land in the north and the 5 seats. The choice lies entirely with you.!

[Kikapu]

To summarise.....this plan has left out a lot of fundamental principles which are iportant to the Cypriots, but it is something this GC would vote for.

DT,

What are those fundamental principles which are important to Cypriots that has been left out of this plan.?...............thanks.!

[Viewpoint]

VP,

I have shown you how to have 50% power at Federal State level with a veto power by a TC vice President/President, and if you do not want to put the work it requires to achieve it, then you should blame yourself for not taking the steps required to get what you want. There are no guarantees, that even if you had all 5 seats in the hands of the TC’s, that they will all vote the same way you want them to do in the Upper House. If that was the case, then there wouldn’t be need to have elections. You can just hand pick 5 TC’s and that will be that. You need to allow people to make the choice as to who should represent them. If there were 200,000 TC’s in the TC state and only 200 GC’s, and the TC’s would choose a GC that they really like and believe it will serve their state well, say someone like Bananiot voted in to one of the 5 seats, just because they like his/her politics, how can you stop that from happening. How can you guarantee me, that that wont happen. The truth is, you cannot, but in your heart you believe, that that will never happen, Bananiot or no Bananiot. Well, the same with me. I have given you my plan and if you follow it as I described, you will have all 5 Upper House seats in the TC’s hands. I cannot give you a certificate of guarantee, just as you cannot give me a certificate of guarantee, that some Bananiot kind of GC who is loved by the TC’s will not one day be voted by the TC’s.

Cypriots will need to take political positions based on political ideology eventually, which is what we do everyday anyway, rather than politics based on ethnic lines, which is what you are asking for, that is a disaster waiting to happen.......again, as we have found out from past experience, that we wanted to have a government based on ethnic lines. It just doesn’t work. We are either all Cypriots with different political ideology that from time to time it changes its positions, or that we are strictly separate from this practice of political ideology and are unison thinking along ethnic lines as me TC, you GC.!. If I may use a metaphor, True Democracy is much like a Desert Sand Dunes, and as with all sand dunes, they shift from time to time. The Sand Dunes represent Democracy, but the landscape constantly changes, and that change is what the political ideology change is in people. Nothing remains constant, because just as the Sand Dunes changes its shape and size, but it is still a Sand Dune and it is still a Democracy.

People who live in a Democracy are the ones with their own political ideology, and that is how the political lines are drawn that allow Freedom of Speech to be voiced, but if you insist that we draw the political lines based on ethnicity, you are then no longer talking about Democracy. I'm only interested in talking about Democracy and how best we can apply it, so that the minority TC's are on equal footing politically with the GC’s based on the "BBF" parameters we have been given. You keep asking for guarantees on how the TC's can keep their 5 seats in the Upper House. There are only two guarantees in Democracy and life in general. Taxes and Death.! If you are a Swiss, you are also guaranteed the trains will run on time.! The only guarantees you should ask for in a Democracy are Freedom of Speech and Human Rights, and all your constitutional rights, because seats in the government are not guaranteed to specific groups, because only in Dictatorships where the Dictator can guarantee anything, that you will do what ever he says or you are dead.!

The only way to secure your seats in the government is playing the best hand possible to ensure that you can maintain those seats in the most legal and Democratic way. But Democracy is neither free nor cheap. In fact, it is darn expensive, and not only in treasure, but at times, in blood also. So when you ask for guarantees in wanting to keep the 5 Upper seats in the hands of the TC's, you have to bear in mind what the costs will be. In any case, those Upper House 5 seats belong to the TC state and not to a TC community, because others well may be living in the TC state and as equal citizens, they too have rights to those 5 seats given to the TC state. As with all politics, or a game of Chess, you want to play the game in a way that you can get the best results for your efforts. Just like the shifting Sand Dunes, the Lower and Upper House seats will also try to shift, that will change the political landscape, and if that were to happen, it is not the end of the world, because in a Democracy and just like the Desert Sand Dunes, they will shift again going the other way, which will once again give another result and another political landscape at another time. This is Democracy at work and if we are to live in a Democratic Cyprus, this is what you need to accept, and if this is not what you are willing to accept, then we are wasting our time here, but if you also want to be part of Europe and the EU, then you really do not have any alternative for the New United Cyprus.

Ill try and clarify why giving back land does not necessarily mean we TCs will keep 5 seats in the upper house because this is of vital importance because we have lost the balance in the lower house on day 1.

DT mentioned this if we reduce the north state to 20% some TCs will be left in the GC state they will not up sticks and move north as there would not be sufficent housing or desire. There for the number of TCs are reduced to say for example 100.000 all the GCs have to do is demand their right to move into the TC state as they already own property there within a very short period of time we will be outnumbered and the GCs will have achieved what they wanted total control of the whole island with TC effective input into their own future.

You are really giving the GCs a loaded gun and the means to shoot us in the back at the first opportunity by on the one hand depleating our numbers by getting us to give maximum land back and allowing GCs to settle in the TC state which will take away our only safeguard and hand the country to the GCs.

Very clever but no TCs would accept such a deal their effective contribution to a united Cyprus has to be guaranteed. It cannot be left to chance as we do not trust or should we expected to the GCs and Im sure they do not trust us.

I must emphasize I am not against returning land but only if it is going to ensure that we will not be pushed to one side by the GCs who are experts at manipulating and bending the rules only to suit themselves and make it look as if everything is ship shape and above board.