Cyprus-Forum.com

[nathar]

(no need to post link again)

What did you mean by the above?
Which link?

Your position is clear and absolutely respected
Through all your posts a very energetic person is recognised
You love Cyprus very much and as many of us you express a point of view from inside Cyprus , out of love and to the name of absolute justice.
But I dare say and wish I am wrong this is only half the picture, this is only the one side of the coin.
Why not give it a chance, for the sake of Cyprus, to see the problem from "outside", you might not change your opinion but you would know better the rules of the game, better the options and alternatives if any
Our energy is invaluable for the cause of Cyprus let's not waste it

[Piratis]

Which link?

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

Why not give it a chance, for the sake of Cyprus, to see the problem from "outside", you might not change your opinion but you would know better the rules of the game, better the options and alternatives if any

I can see from "outside" very well.

I already said that if I was a TC I would have voted "yes" for the plan.
If I was a British or American politician backed by "oil dollars" I would again support the Annan plan. If I was a regular EU citizen I would want as less problems for EU as possible.

I can see and understand why some outsiders would want a solution like the Annan plan.

But I am not an outsider. I live here. Those outsiders want to secure their own interests. They do not care about our well being. They do not care how happy we are. As you can see from the examples of Palestine and Iraq, they wouldn't even care if we start dying by the 100s. Whats important for them is their own interests and nothing more.

I see the problem from all sides. And I am not asking for the ideal. What I am asking is simply the best possible that can be achieved. And this best possible simply can not be worst than partition. So if they expect from us to vote "yes" for something, it should be at least better than "standard" partition.

[nathar]

we started discussing and I like it
Could you please give me in more words the standard partition?

[metecyp]

Could you please give me in more words the standard partition?

What's so hard to understand about the standard partition? In standard partition, Turkish side gives some land (probably more than the Annan plan suggests) back to the Greek side, and in return we get two independent states on the island and the two states just go in their seperate ways. In other words, the worst solution of all.

[nathar]

In other words, the worst solution of all.

I could not agree less with that
The only thing is that after the referendum (I am not commenting on "no" and "yes" votes and I refer to that as a fact ) the situation around according to my humble opinion can be summarized as follows:
a. They accepted us in EE because they were assured that we the G/C would not be the obstacle to a solution while we, on our side, we were sure that the T/C would never say yes to a solution....
Therefore EE feels deceived and trapped and be sure that they regret their faith to our assurances and if they knew better they would have put the condition of a solution before accepting us to join
b. We believed that EE is an in favour surrounding for a better solution
But EE, in front of huge problems to solve for the best of the 450millions and few steps before the European constitution and all its procedures to be accepted and applied, obviously did not want another problem
c. Turkey is rather doubtfull that will show more flexibility as the criteria for her EE road does not include Cyprus problem as an actual criterio but as plus in favour
d. T/C are not interested for a separate state as this will put them outside the EE waiting for the new enlargement provided they will satisfy the EE criteria

So under the circumstances what we might get:

a. As option might be a new ref on the Annan plan with improvements regarding security in different aspects we already referred to and demanded and hoping that with the application of the EE constitution in the near future the Annan plan will not stay unaltered.

b. Not as option but as a gradually unfolding development,
the support to the T/C as to establish there own identity within Cyprus, one side application of the Annan plan to the extend that can be applied one sided e.g. Famagusta,Morfou, 1/3 free residency, free commerce e.t.c.
rest of properties can not be returned (1/3 plus value) as the property council will not be established and
in the long term we will have the Annan plan situation without the goverment as described by the plan

So lets's sit tight keep our fingers crossed and wish for the best, for the best of our country and the generations to come.
We are right on a dangerous curb and lets hope that centrifugal forces will not sent us completely out of the road..........

[michalis5354]

Piratis,
I can not see how standard partition is better than the Annan Plan ,thats exactly where we disagree.

[Piratis]

There is no need to agree in everything. Nevertheless, this is what I believe. I will explain why, to justify my (and many others) position, without expecting from you to agree. I would perfectly understand why many refugees would disagree.

The Annan plan creates an association of two separate states.
What we get from this is two things: some land return to us, the possibility that some refugees can return under TC administration.
In return, we give up democracy, we give Turkey the right to intervene (even on our state), we give the British Bases even more rights, we get a dysfunctional central state that can collapse at any time and take us many years back. On top of that we have to put our hand deep in our pockets to help the TC state and the settlers to grow their economy and become a big competitor to us.

So now assume that the above do not happen. We say to the UN that we are willing to recognize “TRNC” if land at least equal to what was returned with the Annan plan is returned to us. Nobody can say that what we ask for can not be given. Actually Turkey and even the US can be glad with such development.

So we get one of the two things that we would get with the Annan plan, but we don’t have to give up anything. We can have a perfect Democracy, Turkey will not have the right to intervene to our part, British Bases that are here because they guarantied the now dissolved RC will have no right to be in Cyprus and eventually through EU we can force them to leave (or maybe they can move in the north), we will not have to pay a cent for TC and settlers, and Turkey will be obligated, through the European court to pay all refugees like they did with Titina Loizidou. (and we can refund TCs that had property here, but that’s a much smaller amount compared to what our refugees will get from Turkey).

TCs will now be out of the EU, but they will want to have as close relations with EU as possible. And we will be EU citizens, and they will have to treat us like they treat British and Germans. So we will be able to move in the north freely, and also buy properties and live there if we want to without any restrictions.

I want to make it clear that this is not what I want. This just the answer to people that say that the Annan plan is the best we can get. No, it is not. In the worst scenario possible we can get what I wrote above which is better than the Annan plan. But there are also better scenarios, that we have a possibility to achieve if we don’t suicide and accept something like the Annan plan.

[Cyprus]

I suppose you are talking about a new referendum in South only.Isn't it?

Cos Turkish Cypriots gave the answer with a big "YES".

I don't think that negotating the plan is a good idea. Guarantee should be given and than a new referendum in south ...

But new situation seems a new referendum is not possible in close future!

[Piratis]

Just a question. How much time does it have to pass until you understand that we will not vote for this Annan plan?

Are you deaf? The answer was given loud and clear.

[Cyprus]

Its your problem !

And you must know that we won't vote any solution except Annan Plan style!