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Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:36 pm

shahmaran wrote:500 years is long enough to get self determination, you are the only schmuck who thinks taking the argument back half a millennium would hold water...


What "half millennium" are you talking about? Greek Cypriots have been the majority over the whole island until 36 years ago when the Turkish army illegally ethnically cleansed them, and even today they hold their rights over their own lands.

If Turkish Cypriots had a separate "self-determination" from the rest of Cypriots then explain me how Kyrenia, Morfou or Famagusta would fall under their "self-determination" when they were only a small minority in those towns?

Maybe the Cypriot minority in London should also claim London as part of their Cypriot "self-determination" and kick the English and every other minority out? :roll:
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Postby shahmaran » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:16 pm

Piratis wrote:
shahmaran wrote:500 years is long enough to get self determination, you are the only schmuck who thinks taking the argument back half a millennium would hold water...


What "half millennium" are you talking about? Greek Cypriots have been the majority over the whole island until 36 years ago when the Turkish army illegally ethnically cleansed them, and even today they hold their rights over their own lands.

If Turkish Cypriots had a separate "self-determination" from the rest of Cypriots then explain me how Kyrenia, Morfou or Famagusta would fall under their "self-determination" when they were only a small minority in those towns?

Maybe the Cypriot minority in London should also claim London as part of their Cypriot "self-determination" and kick the English and every other minority out? :roll:


I didn't divide the island my friend, you divided the people and Turkey divided the land, so ask Turkey.
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Postby Omer Seyhan » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:05 pm

Piratis wrote:
shahmaran wrote:500 years is long enough to get self determination, you are the only schmuck who thinks taking the argument back half a millennium would hold water...


What "half millennium" are you talking about? Greek Cypriots have been the majority over the whole island until 36 years ago when the Turkish army illegally ethnically cleansed them, and even today they hold their rights over their own lands.

If Turkish Cypriots had a separate "self-determination" from the rest of Cypriots then explain me how Kyrenia, Morfou or Famagusta would fall under their "self-determination" when they were only a small minority in those towns?

Maybe the Cypriot minority in London should also claim London as part of their Cypriot "self-determination" and kick the English and every other minority out? :roll:


Piratis, I've been listening to your arguments and there seems to be a trend. You keep going on about the majority have always been the Greeks since antiquity but this is a very poor argument. T/Cs or rather Muslims (which is what they were recorded as by Ottomans) have been around in considerable numbers (despite not being a majority) since the 16th century. That is a long time.

If I were a T/C nationalist my immediate counter-argument to you would be the same as a Kurd, Fleming, African American or French Canadian (both of whom are numerically "minorities") that 'we' have been part of, worked in, contributed to Cyprus over the centuries but are not seeing the benefits of this state as citizens so we have a right to take a part of Cyprus and go our own way.

I'm NOT going to endorse that even though many T/Cs think it. I am a Cypriot first, I am a unionist who believes in a power sharing, bilingual, multicultural Cyprus where all Cypriot citizens are equal before the law and live together as nature intended. I am sensitive to the right of people to return to their homes, live where they want, move to where they want etc.... to me a mono-ethnically controlled state is irrelevant and a recipe for disaster.

If you want a reunified Cyprus that is a G/C state with more territory because of your perceived historical right then I want nothing to do with it and you can fight with our T/C nationalists forever and a day. However, if you want to talk sensible multiculturalism within an excitingly new federal EU state which will represent our all our people and so they can feel safe, then I'm for it.

You must let go of this superiority or majority ethnic group 'right' to do as they please. It doesn't work in a multicultural setting like ours and often those who already control a state who go on about majority rule have different ideas, which is what really worries me.
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Postby shahmaran » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:12 pm

Thank you Omer Seyhan!
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Postby Omer Seyhan » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:18 pm

I remember my first swift shag in Blighty, It was under a dark railway bridge in Peckham on a bone shatteringly cold Jan 17 1978. Her name was Page from Jamaica. Then I went and ordered a chicken chow mein. Don't you just love multiculturalism....?
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Postby shahmaran » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:29 pm

:lol: :lol:

I do.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:22 pm

shahmaran wrote:
Piratis wrote:
shahmaran wrote:500 years is long enough to get self determination, you are the only schmuck who thinks taking the argument back half a millennium would hold water...


What "half millennium" are you talking about? Greek Cypriots have been the majority over the whole island until 36 years ago when the Turkish army illegally ethnically cleansed them, and even today they hold their rights over their own lands.

If Turkish Cypriots had a separate "self-determination" from the rest of Cypriots then explain me how Kyrenia, Morfou or Famagusta would fall under their "self-determination" when they were only a small minority in those towns?

Maybe the Cypriot minority in London should also claim London as part of their Cypriot "self-determination" and kick the English and every other minority out? :roll:


I didn't divide the island my friend, you divided the people and Turkey divided the land, so ask Turkey.


How did we divide the people? The people had been divided since Ottoman times into Christians and Muslims and 80 years after the end of Ottoman rule you insisted and you forced on us the division of people into "two communities", so you could again benefit on our expense.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:46 pm

If I were a T/C nationalist my immediate counter-argument to you would be the same as a Kurd, Fleming, African American or French Canadian (both of whom are numerically "minorities") that 'we' have been part of, worked in, contributed to Cyprus over the centuries but are not seeing the benefits of this state as citizens so we have a right to take a part of Cyprus and go our own way.


The Kurds, Flemish, and French Canadians all have territories in their respective countries where they have always (for very long) been the majority. So if they want to go their own way then they could.

Now tell me how African Americans would go their own way. They are not the majority of any territory in the USA. Should they ethnically cleanse everybody else from some part of the USA so they can forcefully become the majority in that part so they can "go their own way"?

I'm NOT going to endorse that even though many T/Cs think it. I am a Cypriot first, I am a unionist who believes in a power sharing, bilingual, multicultural Cyprus where all Cypriot citizens are equal before the law and live together as nature intended. I am sensitive to the right of people to return to their homes, live where they want, move to where they want etc.... to me a mono-ethnically controlled state is irrelevant and a recipe for disaster.


We agree then. I fully support a multi-cultural Cyprus. What you should understand however is that a bi-ethnically controlled state is not any better than a mono-ethnically controlled state, as in both cases people who belong in other ethnicities are excluded.

So it is about time to abandon the anachronistic practices of the Ottoman times were Cypriots were divided into Muslims and Christians. You don't need to be Muslim or Christian to be a Cypriot citizen. You don't need to be Greek or Turkish to be Cypriot citizen.

What we need are equal Cypriot citizens without any kind of discrimination based on ethnicity or religion were they democratically take decisions for their own island. This is what happens in all successful modern multi-ethnic countries.

You must let go of this superiority or majority ethnic group 'right' to do as they please. It doesn't work in a multicultural setting like ours and often those who already control a state who go on about majority rule have different ideas, which is what really worries me.


I never talked about any "superiority or majority ethnic group 'right' to do as they please". I talk about democracy where all Cypriots, as equal citizens, take democratic choices for their own island always with respect to the human rights of every single citizen.

Isn't this what the African Americans fought for in the USA? Maybe the Kurds or the Flemish can "go their own way" because they have their own territory. But in the case of Cypriots, like the case of Americans, we are all mixed on this island and therefore there we can not go our separate ways, and we have to learn to live as equal citizens in a democratic Cyprus.
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Postby Lit » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:25 am

Israel's U.N. Ambassador Gabriela Shalev said in letters to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the Security Council that her country reserves the right under international law "to use all necessary means" to prevent the ships from violating the naval blockade.

Shalev said a group of individuals "with suspected ties to the Hezbollah terrorist organization" has announced that the vessel Mariam will depart from Tripoli on Sunday en route to Gaza via a port in Cyprus, possibly via Turkish-controlled northern Cyprus.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD9HNEU3G0
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