Cyprus-Forum.com

[quattro]

Is it too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas provided that:

a. Turkey will come under extreme pressures to remove herself from Cyprus
b. Turkey will face growing TC opposition as their fear of extinction grows
c. Greek Cypriots will never agree a federation on a 1960 "equality" logic

Read Makarios' ideas in 1963, together with his reasoning. In my view, the document constitutues a visionary statement, perhaps even to form the basis for the solution to Turkey's 87 year old internal conflict between its majority ethnic Turk and minority ethnic Kurd communities.

SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963)
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

My opinion:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/tri ... hobia.html


http://antifon.blogspot.com
.
Thank you.

Anti going back to 1960 is something ,but we have to negotiate the 13teen points with tCs and my believe is that those point cause all the mess .

As a matter of fact no, 1960 itself was the pandora's box (η αιτία), with 1963 being simply the excuse (η αφορμή). Makarios' 1963 proposed ideas ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html ) were an attempt to surpass unworkability issues and promote unity as opposed taksim.

In other words, how one views the November 30th 1963 ideas depends what the vision is. If it is TAKSIM, i.e. separation, then it is bad because the entire 13 points try to promote unification, the exact opposite of what the tCypriot leadership/Turkey were aiming for at the time & still do.

Of course, point#1 alone of the 13 [a tragic choice of number for the superstitios; he could have easily added a 14th that fathers of all newborns be automatically eligible for season tickets to their favorite team], is enough to scare the vast majority of tCypriots away. I would be apprehensive too if I were a tCypriot. There should be various specific issues where tCypriots should have veto powers, hopefully to come out on the negotiation table. But a veto across the board was preposterous, and would be even more so today with Cyprus a member of the EU.

The document was never discussed. It was not a take-it-or-leave it proposition. Unfortunately, just as is the case today, it was even worse then, we were speaking not with tCypriots but indirectly to Turkey by proxy and its fascist establishments.

See relevant Wikileaks revelation ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/wik ... osses.html ) which, if we are to believe Wikileaks, proves that today we speak to Eroglu who in turn speaks to Erdogan who in turn indirectly answers to the generals! Some democracy for you!

http://antifon.blogspot.com

.

I am curious to understand why people emphasize the 1960 constitution was unworkable? This is the view of many G/C and yourself to justify Makarios actions of amending the 1960 constitution with a 13 point amendment. The brick in front of your view is that you claim the unworkable constitution because the G/C claim was the democratic of their population which outnumbered T/C was not acceptable, basically saying that why should we oblige with this constitution which allows another community to share this island when we are the majority. This is a misinterpretation of the constitution. This anger was expressed by the 1963 Christmas violence. Which was the main focus of the constitution to avoid such circumstances that both communities should enjoy in freedom and not allow one community to rule the other? The 1960 constitution involved both Greek and Turkish constitutional lawyers and using other constitutions around the world as an example to formulate a new law and not at all unworkable. The rumours that have never been buried and continue today as to your comment is that the people who started the rumour that the 1960 constitution was unworkable never ever wanted or had the intention to implement the constitution.

If the T/C and G/C veto power or voting could not come to a conclusion as was the case of the first ripples in calling the constitution unworkable then it must be a failure in the representatives and not the constitution.

The main objective was requirement of separate majority of certain laws to be raised cannot be justified of the constitution to be unworkable. It is hard to justify how the T/C can be legally protected against being outvoted without veto-rights against the passing of laws. There is no legal weight that can be justifying the disrespect for the constitution.

The constitution can be changed with the consent of all concerned. A safe basis for the peaceful future cannot be established removing the fundamental rights of the T/C. So changing the constitution by declaring it unworkable by disregarding it this allows the development of a civil war over the resulting dispute.

1. Was the constitution unworkable or was it the representatives that were unworkable?
2. The constitution gave rights to T/C and the majority found this unacceptable hence laying blame to the constitution unworkable.
3. There is no legal support for the change of the constitution declaring it unworkable.

My conclusion is that the constitution was workable it was the representatives that were unworkable. The constitution should include all concern if any amendments were to be change and not a one man mission; it clearly indicates that Makarios never wanted to implement the constitution and there were other plans set in motion the constitution was an excuse.

Take this from a good unbiase source .

The EOKA campaign ended in 1959 when Greece and Turkey, under pressure from Washington, agreed in Zurich to proposals for a form of limited independence for Cyprus, with both enosis and taksim precluded, with a constitution to be guaranteed jointly by Britain, Greece and Turkey, and with Britain acquiring sovereign ownership of substantial land areas, the SBAs, for military and intelligence use. The 1959 deal was reluctantly accepted by the Greek Cypriots, with deep misgivings and only after intense pressure on them from the Athens' government, which in turn was under pressure from the governments of America and Britain. The arrangement ratified in London was heavily criticised by many observers because it contained clauses that were inherently separatist, because it provided a small proportion of the population with a veto over the functioning of the state, because it gave Ankara and Athens a formal involvement in Cypriot affairs and because its success would be dependent on the doubtful premise of long-lasting goodwill from Athens and Ankara and from all of the key personalities and political elements in both communities.

[boulio]

i minority cannot block a majority on everything(veto).The veto should have been on certain areas such as culture,language etc etc.

30% govt jobs and 40% police force and you made up 18% in ridiculous.

seperate municipalities is devicive and racist.

Having a foreign judge on the supreme court is unheard of.

Foreign countries gurantting your security is again unheard of.

hows that?

[antifon]

Is it too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas provided that:

a. Turkey will come under extreme pressures to remove herself from Cyprus
b. Turkey will face growing TC opposition as their fear of extinction grows
c. Greek Cypriots will never agree a federation on a 1960 "equality" logic

Read Makarios' ideas in 1963, together with his reasoning. In my view, the document constitutues a visionary statement, perhaps even to form the basis for the solution to Turkey's 87 year old internal conflict between its majority ethnic Turk and minority ethnic Kurd communities.

SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963)
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

My opinion:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/tri ... hobia.html


http://antifon.blogspot.com
.
Thank you.

Anti going back to 1960 is something ,but we have to negotiate the 13teen points with tCs and my believe is that those point cause all the mess .

As a matter of fact no, 1960 itself was the pandora's box (η αιτία), with 1963 being simply the excuse (η αφορμή). Makarios' 1963 proposed ideas ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html ) were an attempt to surpass unworkability issues and promote unity as opposed taksim.

In other words, how one views the November 30th 1963 ideas depends what the vision is. If it is TAKSIM, i.e. separation, then it is bad because the entire 13 points try to promote unification, the exact opposite of what the tCypriot leadership/Turkey were aiming for at the time & still do.

Of course, point#1 alone of the 13 [a tragic choice of number for the superstitios; he could have easily added a 14th that fathers of all newborns be automatically eligible for season tickets to their favorite team], is enough to scare the vast majority of tCypriots away. I would be apprehensive too if I were a tCypriot. There should be various specific issues where tCypriots should have veto powers, hopefully to come out on the negotiation table. But a veto across the board was preposterous, and would be even more so today with Cyprus a member of the EU.

The document was never discussed. It was not a take-it-or-leave it proposition. Unfortunately, just as is the case today, it was even worse then, we were speaking not with tCypriots but indirectly to Turkey by proxy and its fascist establishments.

See relevant Wikileaks revelation ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/wik ... osses.html ) which, if we are to believe Wikileaks, proves that today we speak to Eroglu who in turn speaks to Erdogan who in turn indirectly answers to the generals! Some democracy for you!

http://antifon.blogspot.com

.

I am curious to understand why people emphasize the 1960 constitution was unworkable? This is the view of many G/C and yourself to justify Makarios actions of amending the 1960 constitution with a 13 point amendment. The brick in front of your view is that you claim the unworkable constitution because the G/C claim was the democratic of their population which outnumbered T/C was not acceptable, basically saying that why should we oblige with this constitution which allows another community to share this island when we are the majority. This is a misinterpretation of the constitution. This anger was expressed by the 1963 Christmas violence. Which was the main focus of the constitution to avoid such circumstances that both communities should enjoy in freedom and not allow one community to rule the other? The 1960 constitution involved both Greek and Turkish constitutional lawyers and using other constitutions around the world as an example to formulate a new law and not at all unworkable. The rumours that have never been buried and continue today as to your comment is that the people who started the rumour that the 1960 constitution was unworkable never ever wanted or had the intention to implement the constitution.

If the T/C and G/C veto power or voting could not come to a conclusion as was the case of the first ripples in calling the constitution unworkable then it must be a failure in the representatives and not the constitution.

The main objective was requirement of separate majority of certain laws to be raised cannot be justified of the constitution to be unworkable. It is hard to justify how the T/C can be legally protected against being outvoted without veto-rights against the passing of laws. There is no legal weight that can be justifying the disrespect for the constitution.

The constitution can be changed with the consent of all concerned. A safe basis for the peaceful future cannot be established removing the fundamental rights of the T/C. So changing the constitution by declaring it unworkable by disregarding it this allows the development of a civil war over the resulting dispute.

1. Was the constitution unworkable or was it the representatives that were unworkable?
2. The constitution gave rights to T/C and the majority found this unacceptable hence laying blame to the constitution unworkable.
3. There is no legal support for the change of the constitution declaring it unworkable.

My conclusion is that the constitution was workable it was the representatives that were unworkable. The constitution should include all concern if any amendments were to be change and not a one man mission; it clearly indicates that Makarios never wanted to implement the constitution and there were other plans set in motion the constitution was an excuse.

Take this from a good unbiase source .

The EOKA campaign ended in 1959 when Greece and Turkey, under pressure from Washington, agreed in Zurich to proposals for a form of limited independence for Cyprus, with both enosis and taksim precluded, with a constitution to be guaranteed jointly by Britain, Greece and Turkey, and with Britain acquiring sovereign ownership of substantial land areas, the SBAs, for military and intelligence use. The 1959 deal was reluctantly accepted by the Greek Cypriots, with deep misgivings and only after intense pressure on them from the Athens' government, which in turn was under pressure from the governments of America and Britain. The arrangement ratified in London was heavily criticised by many observers because it contained clauses that were inherently separatist, because it provided a small proportion of the population with a veto over the functioning of the state, because it gave Ankara and Athens a formal involvement in Cypriot affairs and because its success would be dependent on the doubtful premise of long-lasting goodwill from Athens and Ankara and from all of the key personalities and political elements in both communities.

Which is the source quattro?


http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/sil ... ority.html
.

[Viewpoint]

antifon

Referring to the EU as a useless body is both wrong and highly offensive. I understand it constitutes a healthy part of neo-Ottoman self-aggrandizement but it has no bearing to reality. You do not seem to trust many people as a community. You know, if you are on the highway and more than one cars is headed in the opposite direction you should start questioning whether you yourself are on the correct side of the highway. The "feel sorry" for us story simply does not wash anymore. Get out of your propaganda prison. It is much nicer, healthier outside.

As you have probably worked out I am not a pro EU person, they do not keep their word as we have experienced and can not be counted on in moments of crisis.

You cannot just dismiss our concerns they are real enough and just trying to rid yourselves of having to address them will not wash or make them go anyway, its time you tried to understand and accommodate them otherwise we will get nowhere as we have been doing for over 50 years.

On the issue of mistrust, see my answer above & grow up in Allah's name. Or even Buddha's. The boogeyman is long gone. You need to update your children storytelling narratives. On the issue of the Kurds, a more honest answer from you would have been to at least express your sympathy to their cause. After all they a 20 million strong ethnic community, or circa 25% of population, who do not even have the right to speak their language. In any case, I make a very convincing, as well as entertaining, comparative politics case on my blog. Explore it. http://antifon.blogspot.com You will especially enjoy this little story: http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/wil ... er-be.html

Whether I support the Kurds or not is not important here we should be more concerned about this island, look at it from this angle what if I supported the Kurds getting their own country would you accept the same for the TCs?

The boogeyman's analogy is getting rather annoying and I wish you would stop throwing childish innuendos that de mine our fears and concerns. We do not trust each other so just saying you have no right to distrust us does not make it so, we have no sound reason to trust you. Your side has taken absolutely no steps beyond their bound duties to improve relations or win TCs over. In fact since the two sides started to interact things have gone down hill as people have discovered that the other side thinks no differently from 37 years ago when the island was divided.

I can dismiss Enosis extremely easily for the simple reason that it does not constitute at all part of gCypriot thinking. It once was popular. And, spending the majority of my time in Greece I can safely say that it is the thing furthest away from Greek thinking, not even registering on any politician's or group's radar. As a result it is not a matter of the solution being half-way, or mid-way, or 3/4 of the way between taksim and enosis. It does not make sense to think in these terms. The solution needs to address the needs of the Cypriot people. Period.

This is like saying we played with the bomb and it exploded did the damage but now we want to believe that it was not us that played with the bomb, taksim was the tcs response to gcs enosis you cannot just wipe it away the damage has been done which is what we live today, why is so difficult for you to understand accept and deal with, instead you choose to make excuses for it.

My friend, the safety that the "TRNC" provides is dangerous. It already chased away tens of thousands of tCypriots. And trust me, you will never feel 100% sure that the new solution will be better; but it will be with 100% degree certainty better that today for the entire tCypriot community and Cyprus as a whole. You have no choice but to trust gCypriots. Turkey may not give you an alternative.

With all due respects its worked very well for over 37 years and will continue to protect those that choose to live in the TRNC, our population has increase for every person that leaves there are thousands of new generations TCs, do you not embrace all the people that live in the south? We are not stupid and can decide if a solution is will be better than what we have today, we said yes to one plan, you have rejected everything placed before you and the world has witnessed this, can your side afford to walk away once again? I do have a choice not to trust GCs by remaining well and truly bound to the TRNC and Turkey so your saying we have no choice does not make it so.

Why do you place RoC in quotes? You do not recognize it?

Without TC representation, no i do not recognize it.

I am happy to see that despite your low opinion of the EU you recognize its existence.

Recognize but not respect.

I think that we agree that Cypriots should be able to reside where ever they choose.

If a comprehensive solution is found where our rights and security are protected of course.

The boogeyman again. Exaggerated concerns must be overcome one way or the other or paralysis ensues.

Stop this as you are insulting me and many TCs you have no right to dismiss our concerns just because you do not want to address them.

In time you will feel confident.

You have given us no reason to feel so in fact quite the opposite, you still have people who claim Cyprus is a Greek island.

I have waited 40 years. How much longer do you need? If for your fears to be eased I have to forget Lapithos and Keryneia, or forfeit my right to ownership,

The knife cuts both way we to have property in the south we cannot claim or has been demolished.

My fears will only go away if they are addressed and not dismissed this only reinforces them, I hope you start to understand.

or give you the right to block the normal functioning of the state, then I am sorry. I do not have that luxury.

What if its to our detriment or against our will?

This does not mean that I will force you to live under me or control you. It simply means that life must go on..

How will you achieve this as the leaders have been unable to find a balance.

In time you will learn to trust.

Dismissing our concerns does not help.

I am sure however that a good number of tCypriots have overcome their fears, especially those currently living abroad who will choose to return, and they will help instill the confidence required into the rest of tCypriots. Yes we can, Viewpoint!

The ones I know and I am from the UK are firm BBF supporters, they want a 2 state solution.

Boogeyman! Read the god-damn document. Negotiate it. Give something, ask for something in return. Or forget 1963 and negotiate a BBF. No matter what you do, think ENOSIS, not TAKSIM! Union of Cypriots, not separation! Enhancing integration, not division. OK? You will make all our lives much easier. My personal preference is a solution based on a negotiated 1963 http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html . Why a BBF when in 20 years time we will all be living intermixed all over Cyprus as it used to be. A unitary state, always in my opinion, will be easier to run and less expensive! I am a fairly nice guy, am I not? Get used to me. I am returning to Lapithos the day after the solution is signed! I will even boost your confidence by playing you a game of chess, a game I love but I suck at!!

I support a BBF solution and not a return to the past as psychologically for TCs this would mean defeat and a forcing of makarios's plan to rid the island of its TC population therefore being able to freely gift Cyprus to Greece.

I hope one day you get to return to your village but without a comprehensive solution with a structure that will address our concerns and guarantee that there are 2 states where GCs administer the south and the TCs the north we will not be seeing a solution in our life time.

It really doesnt matter how nice you are or if we play chess you cannot force us to live together in a unitary state where Gcs will naturally rule supreme and we will be onlookers or feel like tourists in our own country , we have to be given the freedom to choose under which administration we wish to live.

How will you receive my answer since you already think that I do not know gCypriots well enough. Anyhow, assuming I know their thinking well, then gCypriots will jump at the opportunity to negotiate 1963. They will be ecstatic. As I have amply explained though already, they cannot risk initiating it. tCypriots must somehow get the message across in an official manner, that as BBF is disucssed under the aegis of the UN they wish to hold talks with our Dimitris face-to-face to also investigate other possibilities.

This will never happen as the Tcs will never be placed in a position to lick up what they spat out (a Turkish saying) (rejected) so many years ago. So imho you are flogging a dead horse.

We want to move on Viewpoint and you are making it difficult for all of us! The EU which you frown upon (I think you do not mean it) offers a huge platform for Cypriot excellence and distinction in so many fields. I am confident that you are, tCypriots, the most secular and European Muslim community anywhere in Europe!

So you want us to throw away everything so you can move on and get what you dream of, a GC state, well it ain't gonna happen and not trusting the EU and their one sided support I doubt Tcs care very much for using their rickety old stage to excell on when it son the verge of collapse.

Together we can truly dominate our region. Adding one plus one, or 0,4+1,6, choose your preference Cypriots, will not add up to two, it will add up to 4 or 10! Let's make it happen. Let's remember, let's forgive, let's commemorate, but above all let's chart a new course for Cyprus! For Cypriots!

Dominate the region??? really come on be realistic you are a donkey trying to be a race horse well no one is buying it in fact they are laughing behind your backs.

Your chants are very inspiring but when your whole future is on the line and you are asked to take a leap of faith into the arms of your past enemy I think you should be more apprehensive and demand that your fears and concerns be fully addressed and not dismissed.

A leap of faith is required, before too late. gCypriots will not disappoint you this time. They are ready since long ago. You "owe" them, and above all yourselves, that much! Let's make it a Cypriot "revolution" with no t's or g's attached.

Pure utopia, what are you on? We do not see it this way we trust the GCs less today than we did prior to the borders being opened, there has to be a strong BBF structure that will not allow either side to step over the line ever again and guarantees that will act as a deterrent to ensure everyone's security.

Ps. I see trilingual Cypriots, in Turkish, Greek and English, with no employment worries over the next three decades at least!

Without security and safety being guaranteed none of what you offer is worth a fig.

antifon I really think you have to re-evaluate your ideology TCs do not trust GCs one iota (im sure the GCs don't trust us) and will never do so until they experience positive developments to show they do not want revenge for the past and are willing to share the island equally in a BBF structure, without domination and exploiting their numerical advantage to take control over the whole island which you yourself have exposed by stating that a BBF will develop into a unitary state which is one of our greatest fears thats why we demand measures that will stop this form happening so as not to lose our effective say in our future.

[All4114All]

i minority cannot block a majority on everything(veto).The veto should have been on certain areas such as culture,language etc etc.

30% govt jobs and 40% police force and you made up 18% in ridiculous.

seperate municipalities is devicive and racist.

Having a foreign judge on the supreme court is unheard of.

Foreign countries gurantting your security is again unheard of.

hows that?

If the constitution is to be improved it would seem reasonable to establish by definite articles of the constitution itself the separate municipal administrations in question and not the whole constitution make over.

Makarios needed to do was simply not to implement the basic provisions of the constitution, disregard the rulings of the Supreme Constitutional Court and deliberately create a deadlock.

The Greek Cypriot would stage a referendum and vote, in the absence of Turkish Cypriot constitutional rights and international agreements which prohibited it, for union of Cyprus with Greece. Enosis would have been achieved.

Take into consideration the Akritas plan was created the same year Makarios decided the constitution was 'unworkable' and began the 13 point admendments.

Foreign countries always interfere if human rights are violated in war times. Take Kosovo they would be extinct if it was not for NATO to intervene and stop the atrocities the same can be said for the Indian Military intervening in 1971 to stop the massacres of the Bengali people today Bangladesh in the hands of Pakistan.

What I am trying to point out is that instead of scrapping the whole constitution maybe improvements could have been made with both communities concern T/C and G/C and over time we may have join in arms and protested for the SBA's to be removed together united. But when a one man mission (Makarios) disconnects the other community involved in the constitution you simply cannot justify by stating the constitution unworkable.

So again the conclusion is we can argue back and forth if the constitution was perfect or not and it was foreign powers who empowered the constitution onto the Cypriot people. But it was the plans of the Greek Cypriots who wanted Cyprus to be empowered by a foreign country (Greece). As I have already stated in my post maybe we should take a look at the representatives and not the constitution.

[bill cobbett]

Firstly of course Enosis and Akritiarse were a load of over-blown and insignificant pollocks that some are inflating way, way beyond their real significance.

So back to 1960 constitution including a Discussion on Big Mak's 13 Proposals, and if some of you could not throw the toys out of the pram this time please at the mere mention of Discussions.

[denizaksulu]

Firstly of course Enosis and Akritiarse were a load of over-blown and insignificant pollocks that some are inflating way, way beyond their real significance.

So back to 1960 constitution including a Discussion on Big Mak's 13 Proposals, and if some of you could not throw the toys out of the pram this time please at the mere mention of Discussions.

Please tell that to Piratis. Tell him in Greek so he does understand.

[bill cobbett]

Firstly of course Enosis and Akritiarse were a load of over-blown and insignificant pollocks that some are inflating way, way beyond their real significance.

So back to 1960 constitution including a Discussion on Big Mak's 13 Proposals, and if some of you could not throw the toys out of the pram this time please at the mere mention of Discussions.

Please tell that to Piratis. Tell him in Greek so he does understand.

Put your comments in the Post please D .......

[denizaksulu]

Firstly of course Enosis and Akritiarse were a load of over-blown and insignificant pollocks that some are inflating way, way beyond their real significance.

So back to 1960 constitution including a Discussion on Big Mak's 13 Proposals, and if some of you could not throw the toys out of the pram this time please at the mere mention of Discussions.

Please tell that to Piratis. Tell him in Greek so he does understand.

Put your comments in the Post please D .......

You have just done it BC.

[humanist]

VP

Whether I support the Kurds or not is not important here we should be more concerned about this island, look at it from this angle what if I supported the Kurds getting their own country would you accept the same for the TCs?

It would make your argument more valid, credible and you would not be a hypocrite