Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

People as Source of Power

In federalism the centre does not give power. In federalism the people give power in their sovereign capacity The delegate power to both the national government and the states. It is a constitutional arrangement. Thus neither can the centre take power away from the states, nor can the states take power away from the centre. It is an arrangement created by the people. Through constitutional processes only the people can change it. In order to change this arrangement in the US it would require a constitutional amendment.To amend the US constitution it requires a national majority; you must get a 2/3 vote in both the House of Representatives and in the United States Senate.Then it also requires a majority of the states. In the US system it is 3/4 of the states, an extraordinary majority to ratify a proposed amendment.There is nothing magical about the 3/4, the point being that there is a system of compound majority, a national majority and state majority and you often find this sort of arrangement built in to federal systems. In federalism it is power that is delegated by the people and can only be changed by the people.

Insan. do you agree to have the system of the US, yes or no? I agree. If you agree too, then I guess there is no reaon to say that the basis for the solution is the Annan plan, but we can say that the basis is what they have in the US, you agree?

Erolz, EU is not a country. Soon you are going to compare Cyprus with the UN!! Your comparisons are totally irrelevant.
I repeat: The EU is made up from independent countries. In Cyprus there is only one country part of which is occupied.

You are acting like we are two independent countries discussing a way to be united. This is not the case. You illegaly occupy part of our country and we are discussing a way of how this occupation will end.

[insan]

Insan. do you agree to have the system of the US, yes or no? I agree. If you agree too, then I guess there is no reaon to say that the basis for the solution is the Annan plan, but we can say that the basis is what they have in the US, you agree?

In my opinion, US Federal System is suitable for Cyprus under these conditions:

1- The GC population of TC constitiuent state shall not exceed %20 of total TC population in TC constituent state for 30 or 40 years(must be mutually agreed)...

2- The number of representatives in House of Representatives shall be proportional. e.g 37 from GC constituent state, 11 from TC constituent state(9 TCs+2 GCs).

3- The number of the senators in bi-cameral legislature shall be equal e.g 20 from GC constituent state and 20 from TC constituent state(16 TCs+4 GCs)

Under these conditions, a fair and viable, bi-communal, federative administration could be established in Cyprus, I asume...

What's your opinions?

[erolz]

Erolz, EU is not a country. Soon you are going to compare Cyprus with the UN!! Your comparisons are totally irrelevant.
I repeat: The EU is made up from independent countries. In Cyprus there is only one country part of which is occupied.

You are acting like we are two independent countries discussing a way to be united. This is not the case. You illegaly occupy part of our country and we are discussing a way of how this occupation will end.

No I am acting like you made an assertion that there was a _fundamental_ simplicity between numerical numbers and political rights and representation. It would now seem your position is there is a fundamental simplicity between numerical numbers and political rights within a country, but no such thing in unions of countires. So perhaphs this fundamental simplicity is not quite so fundamental or quite so simple - which is my point.

The RoC as a state was founded on the agreed principal of political equality regardless of numbers and representation sperate from numerical numbers of two component parts. This basis was changed by one party without the consent or agreement of the other. The problems Cyprus faces toaday are rooted in these facts. Your presentation that it is simply a matter of dealing with events post 74 and nothing else, is in my view and with respect, simply a continuation of the same old dogmas and solidified views that have prevented the finding of a lasting solution for over 40 years.

[Piratis]

erolz, yes it is a fundamental part of democracies that majority has more power than minority. If you want to have a different system from democracy then let me know.

EU, is not a country, and therefore it can not be used as an example to support your argument.

The way the RoC was founded was not the best. This is why all these problems came. We should have never agreed. At least we got our lessons and we are not going to make the same mistake again.

The RoC as a state was founded on the agreed principal of political equality regardless of numbers and representation separate from numerical numbers of two component parts.

Now, if you want RoC, you can come back and you will get everything according to what we agreed in 1960. I remind you that RoC is not a federation and is not many things that you demand today.

So you want RoC yes or no? RoC is everything that RoC is, you can not take only the parts that you like and forget about the parts that you don't.

[Piratis]

1. The GC population of TC constitiuent state shall not exceed %20 of total TC population in TC constituent state for 30 or 40 years(must be mutually agreed)...

20% as a limit is too high and 30-40 years too long.
To keep such kind of numbers it means that the TC state should not be more than 20% of the land.

Points 2 and 3 seem ok.

[insan]

20% as a limit is too high and 30-40 years too long.
To keep such kind of numbers it means that the TC state should not be more than 20% of the land.

Ok. what's your proposal? %15 and 15 years? Or?

How much the TC state should be in your opinion?

[insan]

And... Have you ever heard any of our(TC or GC) so-called politicians, so-called leaders or so-called NGOs proposed, argued such a fair Federative Sysytem?

what do you expect from them?

[Piratis]

Ok. what's your proposal? %15 and 15 years? Or?

How much the TC state should be in your opinion?

I believe what is fair is that the TC state to have 18% of ground. This would solve the other problem also, since in this way GCs will never be too much percentage of the TC state.

[insan]

I believe what is fair is that the TC state to have 18% of ground. This would solve the other problem also, since in this way GCs will never be too much percentage of the TC state.

But our aim must be give them a chance, create the conditions of living mixed because we all should learn to collaborate, speak each others language...

We must encourage the two communities have good relations with each other, as much as they will be able to...

[Piratis]

I didn't say that the two communities should not be mixed. But your aim is to keep a majority of TCs in the TC state, right? In this case the percentage of the TC state can not be a lot more than 18%.