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greek mess

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Re: greek mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed May 30, 2012 7:52 am

wyoming cowboy wrote:European banks were buying these AAA investments including Iceland...Iceland, one of the most stable economies in the world historically, had a debt of 9.5 trillion kronars, before it had to devalue its currency by 35% in order to bail out its banks


This is an excellent point!

Iceland defaulted and devalued - now look at her. The economy is absolutely booming - a lesson that Greece should learn...

Sticking with the €uro and borrowing yet more money they can't afford to pay back will bring long-term ruin...
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Re: greek mess

Postby boomerang » Wed May 30, 2012 8:02 am

cyprusgrump wrote:
wyoming cowboy wrote:European banks were buying these AAA investments including Iceland...Iceland, one of the most stable economies in the world historically, had a debt of 9.5 trillion kronars, before it had to devalue its currency by 35% in order to bail out its banks


This is an excellent point!

Iceland defaulted and devalued - now look at her. The economy is absolutely booming - a lesson that Greece should learn...

Sticking with the €uro and borrowing yet more money they can't afford to pay back will bring long-term ruin...


it might be an excellent point, and here comes the but...are the islanders a nation entrenched in corruption and nepotsism?...

In a European Union-commissioned survey published earlier this month, 98 percent of Greeks said corruption is a major problem. It found that 88 percent said corruption is a big part of the business culture throughout the country.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/marred-by-corruption-future-of-greece-uncertain-198890.html


How did it get to this? It is ethos gone bad. What does it say about a culture when a majority of the population approves of negating a bailout contract inked barely three months ago….A culture that wants to continually nurse off the European breast but refuses to amend profligate habits….A gimmee something for nothing culture….A culture where tax avoidance is the national pastime…..A culture that won’t reform work laws to allow mobility of labor. The oxymoron here is that if workers could be fired then the fear is unemployment would go up. Well, guess what, if a business can’t fire then it won’t hire because hiring becomes akin to having a dependent child for life that never leaves his bedroom. Greece is a country with a bloated public sector, an inefficient labor force, a people stilted by a bureaucratic system that over generations has snuffed out creativity and entrepreneurial spirit. So to my way of thinking, for the Greek people, it is irrelevant whether they leave or stay or come or go. Greece has degenerated into a rotted, decayed, and sclerotic wasteland. True redesign of attitude, value systems and hence society is their only hope…a new ethos. Can it happen……Maybe but statistically unlikely.

more here ---- http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardfinger/2012/05/29/greek-tragedy-how-far-they-have-fallen/



grumpy you need to compare apples and apples not apples and oranges...
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Re: greek mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed May 30, 2012 8:07 am

boomerang wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
wyoming cowboy wrote:European banks were buying these AAA investments including Iceland...Iceland, one of the most stable economies in the world historically, had a debt of 9.5 trillion kronars, before it had to devalue its currency by 35% in order to bail out its banks


This is an excellent point!

Iceland defaulted and devalued - now look at her. The economy is absolutely booming - a lesson that Greece should learn...

Sticking with the €uro and borrowing yet more money they can't afford to pay back will bring long-term ruin...


it might be an excellent point, and here comes the but...are the islanders a nation entrenched in corruption and nepotsism?...

In a European Union-commissioned survey published earlier this month, 98 percent of Greeks said corruption is a major problem. It found that 88 percent said corruption is a big part of the business culture throughout the country.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/marred-by-corruption-future-of-greece-uncertain-198890.html


How did it get to this? It is ethos gone bad. What does it say about a culture when a majority of the population approves of negating a bailout contract inked barely three months ago….A culture that wants to continually nurse off the European breast but refuses to amend profligate habits….A gimmee something for nothing culture….A culture where tax avoidance is the national pastime…..A culture that won’t reform work laws to allow mobility of labor. The oxymoron here is that if workers could be fired then the fear is unemployment would go up. Well, guess what, if a business can’t fire then it won’t hire because hiring becomes akin to having a dependent child for life that never leaves his bedroom. Greece is a country with a bloated public sector, an inefficient labor force, a people stilted by a bureaucratic system that over generations has snuffed out creativity and entrepreneurial spirit. So to my way of thinking, for the Greek people, it is irrelevant whether they leave or stay or come or go. Greece has degenerated into a rotted, decayed, and sclerotic wasteland. True redesign of attitude, value systems and hence society is their only hope…a new ethos. Can it happen……Maybe but statistically unlikely.

more here ---- http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardfinger/2012/05/29/greek-tragedy-how-far-they-have-fallen/



grumpy you need to compare apples and apples not apples and oranges...


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Good points too...

But.... Greece will be much better off to default and devalue - with or without corruption.

With her own currency she can manager her own affairs... not be tied to the economics of powerhouse countries like Germany.

Default >>> cheap holidays >>> cheap exports >>> economic growth and prosperity.
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Re: greek mess

Postby boomerang » Wed May 30, 2012 8:14 am

here is what the greek bank says about leaving the eurozone...

Biggest Greek bank warns of dire euro exit fallout

By Karolina Tagaris

ATHENS | Tue May 29, 2012 5:46pm EDT

May 29 (Reuters) - If Greece left the euro, living standards would plummet, incomes would be slashed by more than half, and inflation and unemployment would skyrocket, the National Bank of Greece warned on Tuesday.

In a report released ahead of an election on June 17 that may determine whether the country stays in the single currency, the country's biggest bank said the risk of Athens exiting the euro was no longer just a theoretical possibility, warning that the fallout from such a move would be dramatic.

"An exit from the euro would lead to a significant decline in the living standards of Greek citizens," the NBG wrote ahead of a vote which parties opposed to austerity measures that have kept Greece in the euro so far have a chance of winning.

The bank said per capita income would collapse by at least 55 percent, the new national currency would depreciate by 65 percent against the euro and a recession, now in its fifth year, would deepen by 22 percent.

Painting a dire picture of post-euro Greece, it added that unemployment would jump to 34 percent of the work force from around 22 percent now and that inflation would rise to 30 percent from its current level of 2 percent.

The NBG is due to report its first quarter earnings on Wednesday and is expected to announce a loss. Greek banks, including NBG, have hemorrhaged deposits since the crisis began and are perceived to be in favour of retaining the euro because the alternative might trigger a run on their reserves.

The NBG said it wanted to contribute to dialogue about Greece's future with respect to the euro.

Greece had to call a repeat election for June 17 after an inconclusive vote on May 6 left the parliament divided between parties that support and oppose the austerity steps that were a precondition of a second 130-billion-euro bailout agreed with the European Union and International Monetary Fund in March.

Tax rises and spending cuts insisted upon by the EU and IMF in order to save the country from default have caused a wave of corporate closures and bankruptcies, sparking angry protests that have often turned violent. More than half of Greeks aged 15-24 are unemployed, according to the latest figures.

While most Greeks want to keep the euro, about two thirds are against the deep salary, pension and job cuts that come with continued membership of the single currency, according to the latest opinion polls.

Greece's conservatives have regained a tentative opinion poll lead that suggests they may be able to form a pro-bailout government committed to keeping the country in the euro. But the vote is still deemed too close to call.

EU leaders have warned Greece of the consequences of renouncing the bailout, saying they will pull the plug on funding, leading to rapid bankruptcy and an ignominious exit from the single currency.

Athens has agreed additional spending cuts of 5.5 percent of GDP, worth about 11 billion euros in 2013-2014, and has told its lenders it will raise another 3 billion euros from better tax collection methods in order to continue receiving bailout money.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/greece-euro-idUSL5E8GTI5320120529


so you see there is no option in leaving the eurozone...greece will be known as the euro trash country...

if they leave the eurozone from who else they gonna beg?...
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Re: greek mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed May 30, 2012 8:55 am

boomerang wrote:here is what the greek bank says about leaving the eurozone...

Biggest Greek bank warns of dire euro exit fallout

By Karolina Tagaris

ATHENS | Tue May 29, 2012 5:46pm EDT

May 29 (Reuters) - If Greece left the euro, living standards would plummet, incomes would be slashed by more than half, and inflation and unemployment would skyrocket, the National Bank of Greece warned on Tuesday.

In a report released ahead of an election on June 17 that may determine whether the country stays in the single currency, the country's biggest bank said the risk of Athens exiting the euro was no longer just a theoretical possibility, warning that the fallout from such a move would be dramatic.

"An exit from the euro would lead to a significant decline in the living standards of Greek citizens," the NBG wrote ahead of a vote which parties opposed to austerity measures that have kept Greece in the euro so far have a chance of winning.

The bank said per capita income would collapse by at least 55 percent, the new national currency would depreciate by 65 percent against the euro and a recession, now in its fifth year, would deepen by 22 percent.

Painting a dire picture of post-euro Greece, it added that unemployment would jump to 34 percent of the work force from around 22 percent now and that inflation would rise to 30 percent from its current level of 2 percent.

The NBG is due to report its first quarter earnings on Wednesday and is expected to announce a loss. Greek banks, including NBG, have hemorrhaged deposits since the crisis began and are perceived to be in favour of retaining the euro because the alternative might trigger a run on their reserves.

The NBG said it wanted to contribute to dialogue about Greece's future with respect to the euro.

Greece had to call a repeat election for June 17 after an inconclusive vote on May 6 left the parliament divided between parties that support and oppose the austerity steps that were a precondition of a second 130-billion-euro bailout agreed with the European Union and International Monetary Fund in March.

Tax rises and spending cuts insisted upon by the EU and IMF in order to save the country from default have caused a wave of corporate closures and bankruptcies, sparking angry protests that have often turned violent. More than half of Greeks aged 15-24 are unemployed, according to the latest figures.

While most Greeks want to keep the euro, about two thirds are against the deep salary, pension and job cuts that come with continued membership of the single currency, according to the latest opinion polls.

Greece's conservatives have regained a tentative opinion poll lead that suggests they may be able to form a pro-bailout government committed to keeping the country in the euro. But the vote is still deemed too close to call.

EU leaders have warned Greece of the consequences of renouncing the bailout, saying they will pull the plug on funding, leading to rapid bankruptcy and an ignominious exit from the single currency.

Athens has agreed additional spending cuts of 5.5 percent of GDP, worth about 11 billion euros in 2013-2014, and has told its lenders it will raise another 3 billion euros from better tax collection methods in order to continue receiving bailout money.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/greece-euro-idUSL5E8GTI5320120529


so you see there is no option in leaving the eurozone...greece will be known as the euro trash country...

if they leave the eurozone from who else they gonna beg?...


Clearly, the banks have most to gain from Greece staying in (more bailout cash to buy their debt) and most to lose from a default.... So it is not surprising that you read such hysterical reports of how bad it will be if Greece leaves... :roll:

I personally feel that the results of an exit have been grossly exagerated....

Did you see the Nigel Farage clip I posted yesterday...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... i6w1C7uMs#!
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Re: greek mess

Postby boomerang » Wed May 30, 2012 9:59 am

so they should stay in and pay off theír debts...fully to every cent and no haircut crap...they borrowed, squandered, lied abd cheated, now it's pay time...what you think the debts should be forgiven period?...a greek would think like this but grumpy are you greek?... :lol:
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Re: greek mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed May 30, 2012 10:04 am

boomerang wrote:so they should stay in and pay off theír debts...fully to every cent and no haircut crap...they borrowed, squandered, lied abd cheated, now it's pay time...what you think the debts should be forgiven period?...a greek would think like this but grumpy are you greek?... :lol:


Except that here is no chance of them paying off their debts.... :roll:

How can they pay it all back when they are tied to the €uro with no fiscal control mechanisms of their own....?

They can't pay it back now yet the 'solution' is to lend them more money...?
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Re: greek mess

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed May 30, 2012 10:10 am

cyprusgrump wrote:Clearly, the banks have most to gain from Greece staying in (more bailout cash to buy their debt) and most to lose from a default.... So it is not surprising that you read such hysterical reports of how bad it will be if Greece leaves... :roll:

I personally feel that the results of an exit have been grossly exagerated....


We completely agree.
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Re: greek mess

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed May 30, 2012 10:17 am

Kikapu wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:That's rich coming from a Swiss Tax exile, Kiks. :wink:


:lol: :lol:

I file my Swiss and American Tax returns every year.

That reminds me. I need to file my American Tax returns by June 30th!

Still have time, before they come after me. :lol:

The British government can suck an egg! :lol:

The RoC have not asked for one......yet!


Well, I'm sure you do, my dear. Just as I also file my Greek tax returns every year, as does every other Greek person I know well enough to discuss such matters with. But that doesn't seem to stop some people accusing a whole nation of tax evasion.


One filing Tax returns and paying taxes if due, and one filing Tax returns and not paying taxes if due, are two different things! :wink:

I owe nothing to any government when it comes to taxes! :D


Well now. Why would anyone file and then not pay? They'll be chased up and taken to court. Penalties are huge. Especially in Greece. None of this fixed £100 fine like in the UK - the penalties in Greece are humongous. What's more - you cannot get away without filing a Tax return even if you are not resident in Greece. Merely owning a property in Greece means you have to file an annual return. It costs about 100 Euros for an accountant to do a routine one; and then you pay taxes on any money you have in bank accounts which has not been already taxed or declared as coming from abroad. As for the equivalent of a Council Tax - you have to set up a direct debit. Honestly, the Greeks do pay their taxes and more!
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Re: greek mess

Postby boomerang » Wed May 30, 2012 10:19 am

cyprusgrump wrote:
boomerang wrote:so they should stay in and pay off theír debts...fully to every cent and no haircut crap...they borrowed, squandered, lied abd cheated, now it's pay time...what you think the debts should be forgiven period?...a greek would think like this but grumpy are you greek?... :lol:


Except that here is no chance of them paying off their debts.... :roll:

How can they pay it all back when they are tied to the €uro with no fiscal control mechanisms of their own....?

They can't pay it back now yet the 'solution' is to lend them more money...?



don't you worry about the greeks...the greeks put dogs to shame when sniffing for money...they will find other suckers... :mrgreen:

they can stop drinking frappe and charging credit cards...they can stop living above their means...

even if they leave the euroze, they screwed anyway...these loans will be paid back one way or another...if they tried to not pay back they will be isolated...as people and as a nation...there wil be no trade and their sovereignity will be an issue...the US will drop them like a bag of poo...and you know what this means don't you?...the greeks will become rums overnight... :lol:

instead f paying for fat asses, how about offering business incentives, tax heavens to attract foreign companies and at least the greeks will have jobs...oops jobs and greeks, an oxymoron, shouldn't be used in the same sentence...sorry...
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