Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

I take it you won't be going to the memorial service tomorrow. But, didn't Makarios have the same agenda as Grivas? Doesn't this makes Makarios equally treacherous, if as you suggest, it is the acts of some treacherous individuals that brought on the Turkish invasion?

[supporttheunderdog]

This is what Grivas was saying in January 1973:

«Σήμερον η Ένωσις είναι δυνατή αρκεί να το θελήσωμεν ημείς και να το θέσωμεν εις την Ελληνικήν Κυβέρνησιν η οποία δεν δύναται να την αρνηθή. Προσπάθεια ιδική μας είναι η κατάληψις της εξουσίας, η απομάκρυνσις του Μακαρίου ώστε το αίτημα της Ενώσεως, ως αίτημα ολόκληρου του Κυπριακού λαού θα υποβάλλαμεν πλέον εις τον ΟΗΕ καλούντες τούτον να τιμήση τας υπογραφάς των μελών του, και (προς) την Ελληνικήν Κυβέρνησιν. Ουδείς θα ετόλμα, ούτε η Τουρκία να κάμη απόβασιν εις Κύπρον διότι διεκδικούμεν δίκαιον αίτημα διεθνώς αναγνωρισμένον. Ο Κυπριακός λαός δεν ενέκρινε τας Συμφωνίας Ζυρίχης - Λονδίνου, ούτε είναι υπεύθυνος δι' αυτάς. Εν τω μεταξύ θα οργανώσωμεν την άμυναν της νήσου και εάν η Τουρκία θέλει να κάμη απόβασιν και ακόμη εάν η Ελλάς δεν θελήση να μας ενισχύση η Κύπρος δύναται με τας ίδιας δυνάμεις να αποκρούσει τυχόν απόβασιν Τουρκικήν. Τούτο δε αμφιβάλλω εάν η Τουρκία θα τολμήση να κάμη τοιαύτην, όχι μόνον διότι μέχρι τούδε εμπλόφαρε αλλά και διότι η εσωτερική κατάστασίς της είναι τοιαύτη ώστε είναι αμφίβολον εάν είναι εις θέσιν να κάμη επιστράτευσιν και να αντιμετωπίση πόλεμον και εις τα σύνορα της Ηπειρωτικής και νησιώτικης Ελλάδας». Γ. Γρίβας, Ιανουάριος 1973..

Short translation: Enosis is possible today, as long as we and the Greek government want it. Remove Makarios, grab power and make an official request at the UN for enosis. Nobody will disagree and certainly nobody will dare to intervene. Turkey won't because our demand for enosis is internationally recognised. Our people did not approve of the London - Zurich agreements. We will organise our defense and if Turkey decides to intervene militarily, even if Greece decides not to lend a helping hand, we can successfully repel the Turks on our own. I seriously doubt whether Turkey would dare to try to invade Cyprus because Turkey is known to bluff its way around as it did in the past and because the internal situation in Turkey is such that it cannot mobilise her forces for war across continental Greece and on the islands.

P.S. Tomorrow, thousands of GC will flock to Limassol to remember and honour Grivas.

WhAT FOOLISH STATEMENTS - AND PEOPLE THINK OF HIM AS SOME SORT OF HERO? ARSEHOLE MORE LIKE, FOR SO GROSSLY MISCALCULATING......

[Bananiot]

This is exactly the point I wanted to make Repulse! As I said, thousands will flock tomorrow to Limassol for his memorial service. I predict it will be the biggest ever.

[Bananiot]

While we are it, that is, the treacherous, as described by Hermes, coup against Makarios in 1974, we might take note of the reason why the notorious files of the treason have not been made public.

Remember, Greek Junta leader, Ioannides remained faithful to what he had planned since 1963. Among the military staff plans of the coup of 1974 was Operation "Ifestos" for mopping-up activities against the Turkish Cypriots. The plan was revealed during the proceedings of the Examining Committee of the Greek Parliament on the Cyprus File (1986-1988). This is the reason that the Greek Parliament decided unanimously that there was not to be a parliamentary debate on the Cyprus File. The thousands of pages of documents and depositions by the protagonists were classified top secret and locked in the office of the Chairman of the Greek Parliament, so as not to reinforce the pretext brought forth by Turkey for the invasion and occupation of Cyprus.

How about this, Repulse?

[Hermes]

I take it you won't be going to the memorial service tomorrow. But, didn't Makarios have the same agenda as Grivas? Doesn't this makes Makarios equally treacherous, if as you suggest, it is the acts of some treacherous individuals that brought on the Turkish invasion?

Logic was never your strong point at school, clearly. So Grivas decided to eliminate Makarios because they had the same agenda? Yes, that makes sense.

Your agenda however is unchanging, Bananiot. And always unconvincing. If Turkey's ambition was directed at seizing the island then we must blame the Greek Cypriots for inciting the murderous hordes to our island. Tell me are all the refugees expelled from their homes to blame for the Turkish invasion? All the women who were raped and killed? All the men, women and children who were murdered? Are they all equally guilty in your eyes and deserved to be punished for their sins? Where does your merciless need for atonement end?

Who else is responsible in your eyes? Have you missed anyone? Are the Turks blameless because they are blind butchers who cannot help themselves but murder and pillage?

[Bananiot]

Perhaps you should read more carefully Hermes. Makarios incited the frenzy of enosis within the GC community. He got us all to run around shouting at the top of our voice "e,e,e,e,e, enosis!" Having failed to produce the goods in 1959, he set his sights on bringing enosis from the back door. The ink on the papers he signed had not yet dried and he declared that he will use the 1959 agreements as a stepping stone for enosis (read his speech in Yialousa). How is this different from anything Grivas did? Is this not treacherous? Then, when in 1967 the Greek army (all ten thousands) was forced to leave, he half heartedly declared enosis as not attainable. Yet, he rejected the agreement Klerides came to with Denktash (and Turkey presumably if we agree with our apprentice political analysts that Denktash was the mouthpiece of Turkey) in which the Turkish side practically caved in and accepted his 13 points because at the back of his mind the agreement would rule out enosis. Isn't this an act of treachery in the books of any logical person?

Having said that, in many of my posts I stress that the nationalists in Turkey and the Turkish Cypriot leadership, were not innocent. The Turkish Deep State created its own structures in Cyprus, armed and trained the underground organisation TMT and waited for the Greek Cypriots - who made no secret of their intentions - to give them the opportunity to react. The Turks laid better plans, were more cautious and based their strategy on the mistakes and impatience of the Greeks. We created our own structures led by government-backed paramilitarists (Yiorgadjis, Sampson, Lyssarides) who in 1963, organised the armed clashes with the Turkish Cypriots. The military staff plans of the operations against the Turkish Cypriots were prepared by Demetrios Ioannides, who eventually replaced Georgios Papadopoulos as dictator in Greece and who ordered the coup against Makarios eleven years later. Ioannides was like Grivas, he went in like a bull, Makarios knew that he needed to employ more canny tacticts. Their aim was the same, their methods were different.

So, Hermes, take care of your logic and stop worrying about mine.

[Hermes]

Having said that, in many of my posts I stress that the nationalists in Turkey and the Turkish Cypriot leadership, were not innocent.

I must've missed it. I promise you I will read your posts more carefully in future to see that you are indeed being balanced. I look forward to reading your coruscating opinion of current Turkish policy in Cyprus. And less of your views on dead Archbishops...

[Bananiot]

Now you are being childish Hermes. Makarios is not just a dead Archbishop. He was the protagonist in Cyprus from 1955 till his death in 1977 and many unbiased historians think that his share of the blame for our dire situation today is great.

[Viewpoint]

Having said that, in many of my posts I stress that the nationalists in Turkey and the Turkish Cypriot leadership, were not innocent.

I must've missed it. I promise you I will read your posts more carefully in future to see that you are indeed being balanced. I look forward to reading your coruscating opinion of current Turkish policy in Cyprus. And less of your views on dead Archbishops...

Even faced with facts you choose to ignore them...you can take a donkey to the lake but you cannot make it drink. You are clearly a blind person who will never admit to the wrongs of his own side....its takes guts, intelligence which you obviously lack.

[Hermes]

Now you are being childish Hermes. Makarios is not just a dead Archbishop. He was the protagonist in Cyprus from 1955 till his death in 1977 and many unbiased historians think that his share of the blame for our dire situation today is great.

He is a dead Archbishop, Bananiot, whom historians and writers will judge. For good or bad. With all the evidence of history and our tragic situation to hand. It ill becomes you to make such pronouncements. They merely sound vindictive and bitterly personal. I have read many unbiased historical accounts of the events leading up to the invasion and they do not lay the blame at one man's door. That would be a foolish and unhistorical judgement. There were forces at work in Cyprus that Makarios fell victim to no doubt. He also made errors no doubt. But we cannot allow the Turks to escape responsibility for their role in the island's current division. It is Turkey which occupies Cyprus against international law. Makarios and the people of Cyprus were as much victims as they were protagonists. I am staggered you seem to believe otherwise.