Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

Everyone makes me out to be this partition hardliner,

i am not long in the forum vp, but that is the impression that u gave to me as well.

now i apologise.

but you re vp, give up on people quite fast.
give them a chance.
and i can bet u anything that kifeas is going to agree with most of the things u have proposed.
u will find out that he is not that hardliner as well.
its just i think sometimes u both start with a fighting attitude.

If other areas of economic growth were encouraged by GCs and diverted away from construction this in turn would help elivate GC concerns, but many GCs are unable to see this.

thats also a nice proposal

The automatically assume that the north will prosper and no longer desire a solution with GCs

e re vp, if (since i came in this forum at least) u speak about partition how do you expect the gcs to say: lets lift the embargo.
if your target is partition lirting the embargo is helping u to achieve your aim.
see, trust works both ways.
u should also try to convince us otherwise. say: let us prosper economically but that doesnt mean we will abondon our brothers as you beautifully said before.
and do it gradually as you said. and in the meantime the other proposals could indeed build trust.

it is possible. believe me

[Kifeas]

As far as I am concerened I did nothing to anybody before I was kicked out of my house, property and my homeland in the north. Did you do something? If yes then tell us what you did! If not then stop usuing such pathetic arguments!

i was born in 1982
i hope that answers your question
my point was that legality inside a country is different on an international level. there is no police to call.

And what does the fact that there is no police to call is supposed to mean, my friend? That those who have power are free to violate international laws and those who do not have the power to defend themselves should be ready to capitulate to the desires and wishes of the powerful violators. Is this what you want to say, or you simply want to teach me a lesson about international politics and relations and the difficulties in the enforcement of international legality?

What you do not tell us is what you propose we do under these circumstances. Should we stop mentioning the violations and stop the demanding of the respect and enforcement of legality, and instead capitulate and accept the terms of the powerful violator?

There are plenty of binding laws and turkey co-signed the abidance and respect of all them. Both the Chart of the UN and the all protocols of the Council of Europe for the respect and protection of Human rights.

does she follow them?
if not what are the consequences?

No, it doesn't follow and respect them and very few were the consequences so far, but again what do you suggest we do? Resign and sign out our rights, or try to find ways in which to achieve the enforcement of international legality? What do you suggest we should do? Negotiate? We are doing it for 30 years now! They took us 10, we are trying to get at least 6 back, they give us only 3 instead. What should we do, take these 3 and sign out to gift the remaining 7? What do you suggest we do?

The decision of the court was not forgotten at all and the court made Turkey to pay all the sum of money that Turkey was condemned to pay and by the end of this year Turkey has agreed and is supposed to return her property in Kyrenia back to her.

indeed suppossed to...

Therefore you suggest we do not go to the ECHRs again because it cannot fully enforce its rulings. Is this what do you suggest? Should we instead recognize the “TRNC” and then go and seek a judgment from her courts or should we resign from seeking justice at all?

Then what do you suggest we do? Resign from our rights and gift all our properties and homeland to the thieves because enforcement is very difficult? Accept to get 1 or 2 out of the 10 that have been stolen, sign out the rest and shut up?

would 7 or 8 satisfy you?
My friend, I would be happy with even the 6 out of the 10 that I lost. However, after 31 years of political negotiations they only gives the 3 out of the 10 they took with illegal means and the rest they want us to sign out to gift them for ever. What do you suggest we do, accept the 3 and shut up or stay firm and demand a better treatment and more justice?

By the way, I have been studying and following the Cyprus problem and international relations approximately since the time you was born.

[cypezokyli]

kifeas what do u think about vps proposals of building trust?

[Kifeas]

kifeas what do u think about vps proposals of building trust?

Where are these proposals? I cannot locate them.

[cypezokyli]

in this thread. page 3

or if u want i can re-copy them for u

[cypezokyli]

it seems it is difficult

so,
vp wrote:

I want concrete steps taken by Gcs administration,

1.They should invite Talat to regular meetings to talk about TCs and GCs concerns in relation to Annan plan and what needs to done to make it acceptable to both sides.

2.The Economy in the north should be encouraged to stand on its own 2 feet avoiding the sensative area of GCs personal property thus addressing GC concerns. The isloation on the north has to be relaxed to kick start the economy. This would enable Tcs to move away from depending on Turkey so much and thus make TCs more independent of its mother and closer to its brother, believe me this would benefit GCs immensly.

3.The 2 communites should work together on the rehousing of areas to be returned to GC administration and Maras/Varosha projects.

4.The missing persons issue should be resolved tomorrow no more bullshiting from either side.

5.TCs have to be allowed to represent themselves in the international community. This can be together with GCs and independently.

6. of course a solution should be found to address all concerns but the steps above would help bring the communities closer together and generate a more positive feel of TCs and GCs towards each other.

7.To address many of the issues I would engage experts from both sides that would work together on how best to move forward and identify what needs to be done to resolve issues.

8. I would also get equivelent government departments working together on common policies and principles so that if we unite it will be achievable more smoothly and without caos.

These are just a few that spring to mind but the bottom line is that we must meet and work together on a regular basis to solve our own issues and dialogue is the key which we do not currently have.

still waiting....

[Piratis]

vp wrote:

cypezokyli, what VP wrote are things that will benefit TCs and will give to us absolutely nothing. Not only we will get nothing, but also he wants RoC to be equated with the pseudo state ("equivelent government departments", "TCs have to be allowed to represent themselves in the international community" etc). His aim (which is well known) is partition and nothing less than that. This is where his propositions aim.

[Viewpoint]

vp wrote:

cypezokyli, what VP wrote are things that will benefit TCs and will give to us absolutely nothing. Not only we will get nothing, but also he wants RoC to be equated with the pseudo state ("equivelent government departments", "TCs have to be allowed to represent themselves in the international community" etc). His aim (which is well known) is partition and nothing less than that. This is where his propositions aim.

Piratis for once try to look beyond your nose and realize that we have to work together in order to resolve issues, you have get over this I win you lose mentality, my proposal will in turn help the TCs trust GCs and build bridges, I did state that Maras/Varosha and the parts to be returned but of course you ignored these points as it does not serve your purpose of maximum demands and declaring we are thieves, murders and rapists, have you not realized that although we hope the majority of refugees will return to their property, this will not be possible for all refugess who should be paid financial compensation or equivilent land should be offered in the north or south according to refugees preference.

Do you realize that why financially dependent on Turkey?? how do you expect us to move away from Turkey and stand on our 2 feet and not consult Turkey on every issue??? please be more realistic we have to work together to strengthen the economy in the north so that we can move closer to the GCs, holding us ecoonomically hostage does not work in your favour it just pushes ud into the lap of Turkey, do you understand what Im saying???

I did also state that working together to strengthen the economy in the North would also allow us to steer clear of developing GCs land due to the concerns of GCs and concentrate on other areas.

[Piratis]

my proposal will in turn help the TCs trust GCs and build bridges

And what about GCs trusting TCs? How can this be achieved while you prevent at gunpoint the GCs to return to their own homes?

I did state that Maras/Varosha and the parts to be returned

Sorry, but if you thought that you can return a tiny part of land and get recognition in return you are wrong.

Do you realize that why financially dependent on Turkey?? how do you expect us to move away from Turkey and stand on our 2 feet and not consult Turkey on every issue???

If what you want is trade and improvement of your financial situation this can be done through RoC. Papadopoulos has already proposed that you should return Famagusta and then you can use its port for trade.

However what your leadership cares about it not trade and your financial situation but the recognition of "TRNC". This is why they accept nothing that could give to TCs the trade they wanted but without the recognition part.

So if you want positive steps that will be beneficial for both communities I propose:

1) The return of Famagusta to RoC.
2) TCs to be free to trade everything legal they produce from the Famagusta port.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

And what about GCs trusting TCs? How can this be achieved while you prevent at gunpoint the GCs to return to their own homes?

I will not get sick of saying this as long as you continue with the above statements, the only way to allow Gcs to return to their properties is a comprehensive solution, why cant you understand this fact. Say we allowed them to return in stages would they live under TRNC administration and pay taxes to our government??? Loizou will have this option at the end of this year do you think she will return???

Sorry, but if you thought that you can return a tiny part of land and get recognition in return you are wrong.

Can you please clarify, recognition as in the TRNC or a BBF?

If what you want is trade and improvement of your financial situation this can be done through RoC. Papadopoulos has already proposed that you should return Famagusta and then you can use its port for trade.

However what your leadership cares about it not trade and your financial situation but the recognition of "TRNC". This is why they accept nothing that could give to TCs the trade they wanted but without the recognition part.

So if you want positive steps that will be beneficial for both communities I propose:

1) The return of Famagusta to RoC.
2) TCs to be free to trade everything legal they produce from the Famagusta port.

The green line customs is operative now and Tcs companies can go through the "RoC", the trade is miniscule becasue Gcs do not buy goods from the north the talk about it a lot but they dont actually buy anything, plus TC companies do not trust GCs to handle and ship their goods on fair terms, the feel they will tied up in paper work that will cause delays and be costly so they are continuing as they are and exporting through our own ports. This is another issue where we should work together to export goods through any port either in the south or north to prove that things will run smoothly and encourage TCs to produce products fo exports markets therefore deflecting them from the construction industry which is one of the only opportunites we currently have.

If the return of Famagusta was offered and the port was also returned to the "RoC" would this mean that we would run all the other ports on the island jointly??? or will they all be under the GC administration? do you feel that to be fair???