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TAKSIM is the only solution

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:24 pm

Birkibrisli wrote:I have just read this whole tread in one sitting.I am in awe of all that energy that you guys are putting into arguing your points.Here is a quick response,and I will try not to be too utopian this time.Viewpoint is right when he says the key to reuniting Cyprus is building trust between the two communities.But Piratis and Kifeas is right too when they argue this should not be at the expense of GCs' human rights.The solution to the Cypro will have to involve acknowledging the wrongs that were done by both sides,trying to reverse what wrongs can be reversed,and compensate what wrongs cannot be corrected. If Kifeas want to return to his home in the North he should be able to,and if I want to return to my village in the South and salvage what I can I should be able to as well.
But should we expect Kifeas to live under the "TRNC" and hope that he will be happy he is back at home.I would think not.Can I realistically return to my village in the South if nobody else wants to come with me,and live like Don Qiote fighting with the gosts of the past.I would think not.Yet,no other solution will satisfy me.I don't want to live anywhere else in Cyprus.I want to go back home,but a home where I can sleep well at night,where I don't have to worry about some lunatic slitting my throat at night.We need a solution where kifeas will feel at home in the North and I in the South.And that can only happen in a united Cyprus where one government rules equally justly one nation called the Cypriot nation. Those who feel more Turkish or Greek than Cypriot can go and live in Turkey and Greece and let us get on with our lives.But how do we go from where we are to that Cyprus where we all feel secure and respected and trusted,where we are all proud members of one nation.Where we all speak at least three languages,and where we keep religion in its proper place ie in peoples hearts.Bugger if I know.But I feel we'll have a better chance of achieving such a homeland if we have more people thinking like Cypezokyli.We need to give peace a chance which means we need to be prepared to forget and forgive a lot of wrongs done to us by the other side,for the sake of trust and respect that Viewpoint is talking about.Without that I am afraid we will still be crying for our homeland in 30 years time, as I do often these days when I read some of the threads in this forum.


Hello Birkibrisli,
I agree 100% with the letter and the spirit of all you said. I do not argue that trust is not an issue, it is and a very important one. What I do not like though is to see the issue of trust being so savagely abused, just in order to justify unacceptable acquisitive claims. Trust is a very delegate but also a very subjective issue. One cannot for example assume the right to violate other people’s human rights simply because s/he says or even genuinely feels that s/he cannot trust the other. One cannot trust because of valid personal reasons but can also pretend that he doesn’t trust, either because he doesn’t want to trust or because of other purely subjective reasons. I cannot for example accept from an educated and intelligent person such as viewpoint to argue on the issue of trust like a child that all of suddenly was left away from its mother and in the middle of totally unknown crowed of people and thus was conquered by fear and mistrust of all those around it.

I believe that the GC side has taken some steps towards this building of trust, although I argue more thinks can be done. Unfortunately though, I see at the same time a TC leadership that instead of helping out their community to develop more trust, they do exactly the opposite. They try with their public declarations and speeches to enhance this mistrust towards the GC community. Part of the TC media is doing this as well. The way they distorted and present the GC positions and the way they talk about them proves exactly this. In the end it becomes a frustrating vicious circle because while the one side is trying to build something, the other is trying to demolish it. Consequently, it makes me wonder whether the leadership of the TC community genuinely wants the TC community to develop trust towards the GC community or they prefer instead that the mistrust continues, for their own reasons.
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Postby cypezokyli » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:52 pm

brischkibili wrote:
I am in awe of all that energy that you guys are putting into arguing your points.

try the compination ciesta - coffee - some creta music and there is your answer :)
besides we are kypraioi (how do u write cypriots in turkish?)
..................

so lets continue...
i would like to start with the end:
piratis wrote:
Dude, they are illegally occupying our homes They ARE against us!!!!!

piratis, i never thought before that vp was right with these trust things. i have to tell you, the more u write the more i believe him

piratis wrote :
And what did VP said? Does he accept to make any positive steps (e.g. return some land) without their "TRNC" getting something that would in effect equal to recognition? I read what you wrote. I am afraid you do not understand what VP asks for though.

vp said that there cant be any land given back unless there is a comprehensive solution. the same thing holds for the embargo and the recognition of the TRNC.
ofcource u could say they could give famagusta.
talats answer to this is that it will appear that papadopoulos nonnegotiating stance is working.
(it seems who pays and who wins is in our cypriot culture)

do u think i agree?
ofcource not
but try for a second to put yourself in his place.
ofcource he wants sth in return.



So? The TCs according to you (who in their majority support their "TRNC") should not have any consequences? If they reject the "TRNC" and they join us in the fight against Turkey then I would agree. However now they don't do that and they would be more than glad to keep the properties that were stolen from us. So why shouldn't they have any consequences for their actions and choices?

they should ofcource.
but as u always argue in this forum, they dont take the decisions. the army does. and the army suffers no concequences.
the important thing is to use them for our benefit with the only aim of achieving a solution and not that they pay.
anyway the main point was the effectivenness of what we use.

We have a veto power over the Turkish accession. Recognition is something we are asking now and expect it to be one step that the Turkey should make. Don't confuse this step with our final aim. Turkey will never enter the EU without the solution of the Cyprus problem

u think the other european powers are going to allow us to use the veto just like that?
papadopoulos today said that it is dangerous to connect the recognition of the RoC with the solution, bc the pressure will fall on us to accept the Aplan or sth similar.
pap knows. and he admited it. i will not try to interpret his aims thought...

dont forget that everytime we mention a solution turkey will say, but i have supported the attempts of the GS for a solution. dont be so sure that it cannot enter wthout a solution.
if it can have customs union with a country that she doesnt recognise... many things are possible

anyway, i will not get to any predictions. 3 of october is not that far away.

So you agree that the embargo thing worked, right? The way it worked until now it will continue to work in the same way. TCs like VP will say anything in order to get this embargo lifted. If we followed what they said today we would have 2 separate states in Cyprus.

i dont know vp personally.
i also said :
after a while they will view this whole thing nationalistically, and simply reject any proposed plan.

its something that i constantly say: dont take the tc yes as granted.

it worked. ofcource it did. all i am saying it could also turn to a boumerang. if it turns to nationalism, (in a period of referendums) believe me, money will not matter any more.

Quote:
after the opening of the borders and the NO, the tc economy is improving despite our attempts to make them pay.

This is due partly to our own decisions. We could for example stop TCs from crossing to the free areas, not to give them free health care, not to allow any trade with us etc. However as I said before: "We can still help them in many ways but not to the degree that they get any kind of recognition. " And this is what we do.

firstly. STOP REAPETING THIS HEALTH CARE THING.
we do it because they are cypriots and because it is a human thing to do.
(kane to kalo kai rixto sto gialo.)
if we want that they pay for that we should just say it.
if we dont want to do it...then stop it.

second , what does health care has to do with the tc economy?
the biggest industry in the north is the construction industry, and we cannot stop that.
as for not allowing them to cross the borders... do it if u have the guts. and then lets see who u r going to convince that u represent all cypriots.
close the borders and we will start wondering who wants cyprus united.
just close them.


If they can manage to do more than what we would like (e.g. sell Greek Cypriot property) this doesn't mean we should help them to do more of the things we wouldn't like, right? Instead we should work in order to limit those things
.

how?

Quote:
my point is, that our advantages are withering away.

We could change that to a big degree if we wanted. You think we should?


how would we do that?
by cutting the health care?

What is utopian is you thinking that TCs will want union because they like us. They will want union if it serves them better, for no other reason.

read sadik or Birkibrislis posts.
sadik wrote:
Seperation is not a desirable thing for Turkish Cypriots.

i can not say sth about the tc.
you seem to know better. even better than the tcs.
perhaps it is bc you r older.
but i am really wandering on why we want to make a state with them.

We want them to like us, sure, but for the right reasons


which are...?


..................
Birkibrisli wrote

We need to give peace a chance which means we need to be prepared to forget and forgive a lot of wrongs done to us by the other side

u know birkibrisli, peace is getting more and more utopian.
it could be that i am wrong trying to trust u guys.
it could be that i am hurting my people with all the things i say.
the creta song i was just listening to said:

ama tha nioseis inta tha pei agapi tjai poneseis
oles tsi treles pou kama, tha mou tsi syhoreseis

when u get to feel what love means und you hurt
all the stupid sthings i did, u will forgive them.

it could be also for cyprus.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:15 pm

cypezokyli wrote:u know birkibrisli, peace is getting more and more utopian.
it could be that i am wrong trying to trust u guys.
it could be that i am hurting my people with all the things i say.
the creta song i was just listening to said:

ama tha nioseis inta tha pei agapi tjai poneseis
oles tsi treles pou kama, tha mou tsi syhoreseis

when u get to feel what love means und you hurt
all the stupid sthings i did, u will forgive them.

it could be also for cyprus.


Cypezokyli,please don't stop trying to trust us,it is the only hope we have for a solution.I like your Cretan song,but love between TCs and GCs is certainly a utopian thing at the moment.
We might try to do it in reverse,trust and respect first,and hope that love will come.I don't know if Viewpoint will agree with me but imo by giving the settlers the vote in the North the will of the TCs is essentially broken.We are already inconsequential in our own country.There is a move now among Tcs to try to take the vote off the settlers but I am not holding my breath.Essentially those of us who want to preserve our cypriotness are outnumbered by the settlers and those Tcs who have benefitted from the division of the island.Unification of Cyprus will not happen as long as TCs are powerless to express their true desires.North Cyprus can be a very intimidating place for someone with ideas like mine.Lets not forget that a lot of Tcs who are still living in Cyprus now are migrants from the South who did very well financially out of the troubles.They have no wish to unite the island.Other Tcs are plainly too intimidated by the Turkish Army who are the real rulers of the North (again i wonder if Viewpoint will agree with me on that point) to speak their minds.So until real power comes to the hands of Talat and Co there is little that can be done to improve trust between Cypriots.
By the way the word for Cypriot in Turkish is Kibrisli,so my nickname means A Cypriot (Bir=one) on one level,and on the other more subtle level it can mean One Who Comes from a United Cyprus!
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:16 pm

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To Piratis

Postby Azeroglu » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:01 pm

Greek Cypriot...you mention that since I am not a Cypriot I should shut up...ummm, your fellow Greeks from mainland Greece are not Cypriots either, so you might want to tell them to shut up first. Now I hope you like Baf (Paphos), since you will be there for a very long time, and your home will NEVER be anywhere north of the Green Line.

Now...Turkey, the TRNC and Azerbaijan are one nation, three states. Turks will support Turks no matter where they are...and there are MANY Turkic republics...many.

As for you calling me "dude", that is how children in grade school in America address each other...are you in grade school, or are you anxious to emulate American teens? Sounds like you are culturally confused as well, but whatever the reason, I do not appreciate you addressing me as "dude".

As to your insulting others on this forum, calling them names like "idiot" and using other choice adjectives in addressing others, number one, it is violation of the terms of this forum, secondly, you are making a poor impression on your fellow Greek Cypriots (unless you are Armenian and don't care about that) and finally, it is a rather immature reaction to what should basically be a discussion carried out in a civilized fashion.

Either way, I am having the webmaster check out your previous posts.

YASASIN KUZEY KIBRIS CUMHURIYETI...YASASIN AZERBAYCAN!
Last edited by Azeroglu on Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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To Kifeas

Postby Azeroglu » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:22 pm

By the way, Piratis, if you wish to call me a Mongol, I will certainly take it as a compliment. I would love others to think of us Turks as Mongols...you see the Mongolian Golden Horde created a vast Empire that stretched all the way from the Altai Mountains and Gobi Desert in the Far East to the banks of the Danube River in Europe. I would love to claim Cengiz Han as a Turk. Both Mongols and Turks made you their subjects and vassals, and both Mongols and Turks are known throughout history as excellent fighters and conquerors.

As for you Kifeas, sorry, but Cyprus will NEVER go back to being 100 percent Greek. Furthermore you Cypriot Greeks are only linguistically, culturally and religiously Greek...you look more like Lebanese and Palestinian Arabs, proof that you are a Semitic people from the nearby Levant (Middle East) who just happen to have become Hellenized under Byzantine rule.

Furthermore, Turkey did you Greek Cypriots a big favor by preventing ENOSIS. Do you know anything about the terrible bureaucracy and corruption that have plagued mainland Greece? Is that the kind of government you Greek Cypriots would have liked to live under?
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Postby cypezokyli » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:35 pm

There is a move now among Tcs to try to take the vote off the settlers but I am not holding my breath.Essentially those of us who want to preserve our cypriotness are outnumbered by the settlers and those Tcs who have benefitted from the division of the island.Unification of Cyprus will not happen as long as TCs are powerless to express their true desires.North Cyprus can be a very intimidating place for someone with ideas like mine.Lets not forget that a lot of Tcs who are still living in Cyprus now are migrants from the South who did very well financially out of the troubles.They have no wish to unite the island.Other Tcs are plainly too intimidated by the Turkish Army who are the real rulers of the North (again i wonder if Viewpoint will agree with me on that point) to speak their minds.So until real power comes to the hands of Talat and Co there is little that can be done to improve trust between Cypriots.

many of the things u say Birkibrisli make many gc (including me) happy.

if it is like that tcs are powerless to express their true desires, it is sth that is beyond my power of influence. it is sth the tc know and it is up to them to change it, if it it indeed like that. it is not sth that i can advise od demand. u r a tc and u can do thath.
that is why i am trying to see what we (the gcs) can do.
i really hope that vp will agree with you. but i guess u r also utopian.



By the way the word for Cypriot in Turkish is Kibrisli,so my nickname means A Cypriot (Bir=one) on one level,and on the other more subtle level it can mean One Who Comes from a United Cyprus!

thanks
i should have guessed though. the word "kibris" is also written on my passport.
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Lapithos?

Postby Azeroglu » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:25 pm

To whomever is using the name Lapithos...it's Lapta, not Lapithos, just as it is Girne and not Kyrenia.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:01 pm

cypezokyli, I am still trying to understand what is your position regarding our attitude towards the TCs. Can you please be a bit more specific?

Do you want RoC to allow the illegal "TRNC" to function as an independent country?

As I said already I have no problem with things that will help TCs but not "TRNC". Do you want to help "TRNC" as well?

If they can like us by this then good. If they want us to help them partition our country in order to like us then we will pass.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:11 pm

and both Mongols and Turks are known throughout history as excellent fighters and conquerors.

Sure. I said the same thing some time ago when I said that the only thing they know how to do good is to kill (excellent fighters) and to steal other people's land (conquerors). I am glad you agree.

What is unfortunate is that while many modern day Turks are civilized, many others (like Azeroglu) remain barbarian theives.
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