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Status Quo solutions

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Status Quo solution

The 'TRNC' becomes a recognised state with existing borders but all refugees have the right to return and become full citizens with voting rights
0
No votes
The 'TRNC' returns 17-20% of Cyprus back to the RoC and gets recognised. Refugees in the returned land can get their land back.
2
67%
A return to full political participation by the Turkish Cypriots in the RoC including Turkish Cypriot MP's and Turkish Cypriot Vice president in a dual role alongside their 'TRNC' roles.
1
33%
 
Total votes : 3

Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu May 10, 2012 6:32 pm

Panicos UK wrote:A ray of hope appeared in 1968 when U Thant, the UN Secretary General proposed that inter-communal talks should commence in order to resolve the Cyprus dispute. Osorio Tafall headed the negotiations, and Glafcos Clerides in his capacity as President of the House of Representatives represented the Greek Cypriots. Rauf Denktash in his capacity as President of the Turkish Communal Chamber represented the Turkish Cypriots. During the first phase of the talks which lasted from the 24th June until the 28th August, the Turkish Cypriots made considerable concessions in that they were prepared to accept broad amendments to the Cyprus Constitution. They agreed; to reduce Turkish Cypriot representation in the House of Representatives from 30% to 20%, to abolish the veto powers of the Vice-President, to abolish the need to acquire separate majorities to enact legislation, and to unify the lower courts. The Turkish Cypriots were prepared to make these concessions on condition that they received some local autonomy to administer their own affairs, and that Greek and Turkish villages were grouped together for the purposes of local administration. Makarios however was not content with the concessions and was adamant that Greek and Turkish villages should not be grouped together. On the 8th December 1972, the last round of inter-communal talks was held. On the 12th December, Clerides had a meeting with Makarios. The uncompromising attitude of Makarios persisted despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriot side had accepted all the 13 points proposed by him in 1963, and even went beyond them. Makarios would not yield on the issue of local government despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriots had; abandoned their demand to group Greek and Turkish villages together, accepted that only the House of Representatives would enact legislation on local government matters, and accepted that administrative control would be exercised on behalf of the Government by a Civil Servant. Clerides strongly advised Makarios to accept the Turkish Cypriot proposals but Makarios would not be persuaded. According to Clerides, the decision of Makarios of 12th December 1972 not to compromise, after the concessions that the Turkish side had made, sealed his fate and that of Cyprus. The die was cast and the worst followed.

Tofallis. K. Dr, A History of Cyprus – An Illustrated History (The Greek Institute, 2002) P. 233



This article is not referenced regarding original documents. The letter by Clerides to Denktash suggests the GCs were making concessions and the TCs were not in fact "accepting the 13 points" other than as part of the 'preliminary' negotiations for discussion, and no more.

There is no other source which backs up your claim that the TCs accepted all 13 points!
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby Panicos UK » Thu May 10, 2012 6:49 pm

Are you disputing this then? What evidence and 'original sources' can you provide? Makarios makes explicit reference to the Turkish Cypriot acceptance of the 13 points in his letter to the Greek government on th previous page. What about Clerides, is he lying? Dr Kypros Tofallis, you know more about Cypriot history than he does? WOW
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu May 10, 2012 7:11 pm

Answering to myself:
Of course it is. It is the resolution the UN issued after his beatitude spoke to the UN after the coup calling everybody (including Turkey) to do something.
Here's his full speech. Admire the wisdom of our Great Leader and hero....

I should like at the outset to express my warmest thanks to the members of the Security Council for the keen interest they have shown in the critical situation created in Cyprus after the coup, which was organised by the military regime of Greece and was put into effect by the Greek officers serving in and commanding the Cyprus National Guard. I am particularly grateful that the Security Council has agreed to postpone its meeting until my arrival here to give me the opportunity of addressing it on the recent dramatic events in Cyprus.

What has been happening in Cyprus since last Monday morning is a real tragedy. The military regime of Greece has callously violated the independence of Cyprus. Without trace of respect for the democratic rights of the Cypriot people, without trace of respect for the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, the Greek junta has extended its dictatorship to Cyprus. It is indeed a fact that for some time now their intention was becoming obvious. The people of Cyprus had for a long time feeling that a coup by the Greek junta was brewing, and this feeling became more intense during the recent weeks when the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B', directed from Athens, had renewed its wave of violence.

I knew all along that the illegal organisation had its roots and supply resources in Athens. I became aware that the Greek officers staffing and commanding the National Guard were recruiting members for that organisation, and they supported it in various ways to the point of access to the munition supply stores of the National Guard. In the camps of the National Guard, the Greek officers were conducting open propaganda in favour of that illegal organisation and turned the National Guard from an organ of the state into an instrument of subversion. Whenever, from time to time, I complained to Athens about unbecoming conduct by Greek officers of the National Guard, the reply was that if I had concrete evidence in proof thereof those found guilty would be recalled. From the whole tenor of their attitude, I received the unmistakable impression that their standard response was a pretence of innocence. A few days ago documents came into the hands of the Cyprus police clearly proving that 'EOKA B' was an appendage of the Athens regime.

Funds were being remitted from Athens for the upkeep of this organisation and detailed directives regarding its actions were also given to it. I then found it necessary myself to address a letter to the President of the Greek regime, General Gizikis, asking him to give orders for the cessation of the violence and bloodshed by 'EOKA B' and for its dissolution. I also requested him to recall the Greek officers serving with the National Guard, adding that my intention was to reduce the numerical strength of this force and to turn it into an organ of the Cyprus State. I was waiting for a reply. My impression was that the Athens regime did not favour the reduction of the force, much less the withdrawal of the Greek officers.

The Greek Ambassador in Cyprus called on me, on instructions from his Government, in order to explain to me that the decrease in the numerical strength of the National Guard or the withdrawal of the Greek officers would weaken the defence of Cyprus in case of danger from Turkey. This was an argument which, even though it appeared logical, was not convincing because I knew that behind this argument other interests were hidden. I replied that as things developed I consider the danger from Turkey of a lesser degree than the danger from them. And it was proved that my fears were justified.

On Saturday, 13 July, a conference under the presidency of General Gizikis was held in Athens, which lasted for many hours. It was attended by the Greek Chief of Staff of the armed forces, the Ambassador of Greece to Cyprus, the commander of the National Guard with the purpose of discussing the content of my letter. As was stated in a relevant communique'' issued at the end of this conference, it was to be reconvened on Monday, 15 July. The reference in the communique'' to a second conference was deceiving. For a while on Monday I was waiting for a reply to my letter, the reply came, and it was the coup.

On that day, I returned from my summerhouse on the Troodos Mountains, where I had spent the weekend, and by 8 a.m. I was at my office at the Presidential Palace. Half an hour later I was welcoming in the reception room a group of boys and girls, members of the Greek Orthodox Youth from Cairo who came to Cyprus as my guests for a five days. Hardly had I greeted them when the first shots were heard. Within seconds the shots became more frequent and a member of the Presidential Guard informed me that armoured cars and tanks had passed the fence and were already in the yard of the Presidential Palace, which was shaking from mortar shells. The situation soon became critical I tried to call the Cyprus radio station for the purpose of issuing a special broadcast announcing that the Presidential Palace was under attack, but I realised that the lines were cut off. Heavy shelling was ever increasing. How my life was saved seemed like a providential miracle. When I eventually found myself in the area of Paphos, I addressed the people of Cyprus from a local radio station informing them that I am alive and that will struggle with them against the dictatorship, which the Greek regime is trying to impose.

I do not intend to occupy the time of the members of the Security Council with my personal adventure. I simply wish to add that during the second day of the armed attack the armoured cars and tanks were moving towards Paphos, while at the same time a small warship of the National Guard began shelling the Bishophric of Paphos where I was staying. Under the circumstances, I found it advisable to leave Cyprus rather than fall into the hands of the Greek junta.

I am grateful to the British Government, which made available a helicopter to pick me up from Paphos, transfer me to the British bases, and from there by plane to Malta and London. I am also grateful to the Special Representative of the Secretary-General and to the Commander of the Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus for the interest, which they had shown for my safety. My presence in this room of the Security Council was made possible thanks to the help given to me by the British Government and the representatives of the Secretary-General, Dr. Waldheim, whose keen concern for me and for the critical situation which developed in Cyprus moves every fibre of my heart.

I do not know as yet all the details of the Cyprus crisis caused by the Greek military regime. I am afraid that the number of casualties is large and that the material destruction is heavy. What is, however, our primary concern at present is the ending of the tragedy.

When I reached London, I was informed of the content of the speech of the representative of the Greek junta to the United Nations. I was surprised at the way they are trying to deceive world public opinion. Without a blush, the Greek junta is making efforts to simplify the situation, claiming that it is not involved in the armed attack and that the developments of the last few days are an internal matter of the Greek Cypriots.

I do not believe that there are people who accept the allegations of the Greek military regime. The coup did not come about under such circumstances as to he considered an internal matter of the Greek Cypriots. It is clearly an invasion from outside, in flagrant violation of the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus. The so-called coup was the work of the Greek officers staffing and commanding the National Guard. I must also underline the fact that the Greek contingent, composed of 950 officers and men stationed in Cyprus by virtue of the Treaty of Alliance, played a predominant role in this aggressive affair against Cyprus. The capture of the airport outside the capital was carried out by officers and men of the Greek contingent campaign near the airport.

It is enough to state on this point that certain photographs appearing in the world press show armoured vehicles and tanks belonging to the Greek contingent in Cyprus. On the other hand, the Greek officers serving with the National Guard were directing the operations. In these operations, they recruited many members of the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B', whom they armed with weapons of the National Guard.

If the Greek officers serving in the National Guard were not involved, how does one explain the fact that among the casualties in battle were Greek officers whose remains were transported to Greece and buried there? If Greek officers did not carry out the coup, how does one explain the fact of night flights of Greek aircraft transporting to Cyprus personnel in civilian clothes and taking back to Greece dead and wounded men? There is no doubt that the coup was organised by the Greek junta and was carried out by the Greek officers commanding the National Guard and by the officers and men of the Greek contingent stationed in Cyprus - and it was reported as such by the press around the globe.

The coup caused much bloodshed and took a great toll of human lives. It was faced with the determined resistance of the legal security forces and the resistance of the Greek people of Cyprus. I can say with certainty that the resistance and the reaction of the Greek Cypriot people against the conspirators will not end until there is a restoration of their freedom and democratic rights. The Cypriot people will never bow to dictatorship, even though for the moment the brutal force of the armoured cars and tanks may have prevailed.

After the coup, the agents of the Greek regime in Cyprus appointed a well-known gun-man, Nicos Samson as President, who in turn appointed as ministers known elements and supporters of the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B'.

It may be alleged that what took place in Cyprus is a revolution and that a Government was established based on revolutionary law. This is not the case. No revolution took place in Cyprus, which could be considered as an internal matter. It was an invasion, which violated the independence and the sovereignty of the Republic. And the invasion is continuing so long as there are Greek officers in Cyprus. The results of this invasion will be catalytic for Cyprus if there is no return to constitutional normality and if democratic freedoms are not restored.

For the purpose of misleading world public opinion, the military regime of Greece announced yesterday the gradual replacement of the Greek officers of the National Guard. But the issue is not their replacement; the issue is their withdrawal. The gesture of replacement has the meaning of admission that the Greek officers now serving in the National Guard were those who carried out the coup. Those officers, however, did not act on their own initiative but upon instructions from Athens, and their replacements will also follow instructions from the Athens regime. Thus the National Guard will always remain an instrument of the Greek military regime, and I am certain that the members of the Security Council understand this ploy.

It may be said that it was the Cyprus Government, which invited the Greek officers to staff the National Guard. I regret to say that it was a mistake on my part to bestow upon them so much trust and confidence. They abused that trust and confidence and, instead of helping in the defence of the Island's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, they themselves became the aggressors.

I am obliged to say that the policy of the military regime in Greece towards Cyprus, and particularly towards the Greek Cypriots, has been insincere. I wish to stress that it was a policy of duplicity.

For some time talks were going on between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots in search of a peaceful solution to the Cyprus problem, which on many occasions has occupied the time of the Security Council and the General Assembly of the United Nations. The representative of the Secretary General and two constitutional experts from Greece and Turkey have been attending the talks. The Security Council has repeatedly renewed, twice yearly, the mandate of the peace-keeping force in Cyprus, expressing every time hope for a speedy solution of the problem.

It cannot be said that up to now the progress of the talks has been satisfactory. But how could there be any progress in the talks while the policy on Cyprus of the regime in Athens has been double-faced? It was agreed by all the parties concerned that the talks were taking place on the basis of independence. The regime of Athens also agreed to that, and time and again the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs declared that the position of Greece on this issue was clear. If that were the case, why had the military regime of Greece created and supported the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B', whose purpose was stated to be the union of Cyprus with Greece and whose members called themselves 'unionists'?

Inside the camps of the National Guard, the Greek officers continually charged that while Enosis was feasible its realisation was undermined by me. When reminded that Greece had made its position clear on this and that it supported independence, their reply was that no attention should be given to the words of diplomats. Under such circumstances how was it possible for the talks to arrive at a positive result? The double-faced policy of the Greek regime was one of the main obstacles to the progress of the talks.

In the circumstances that have now been created in Cyprus, I cannot foresee the prospects of the talks. I would rather say that there are no prospects at all. An agreement that may be reached by the talks would be devoid of any value because there is no elected leadership to deal with the matter. The coup d'etat of the military regime of Greece constitutes an arrest of the progress of the talks towards a solution.

Moreover, it will be a continuous source of anomaly in Cyprus, the repercussions of which will be very grave and far reaching, if this situation is permitted to continue even for a short time.

I appeal to the members of the Security Council to do their utmost to put an end to this anomalous situation, which was created by the coup of Athens. I call upon the Security Council to use all ways and means at its disposal so that the constitutional order in Cyprus and the democratic rights of the people of Cyprus can be reinstated without delay.

As I have already stated, the events in Cyprus do not constitute an internal matter of the Greeks of Cyprus. The Turks of Cyprus are also affected. The coup of the Greek junta is an invasion, and from its consequences the whole people of Cyprus suffers, both Greeks and Turks. The United Nations has a peace-keeping force stationed in Cyprus. It is not possible for the role of that peace-keeping force to be effective under conditions of a military coup. The Security Council should call upon the military regime of Greece to withdraw from Cyprus the Greek officers serving in the National Guard, and to put an end to its invasion of Cyprus.

I think that, with what I have placed before you, I have given a picture of the situation. I have no doubt that an appropriate decision of the Security Council will put an end to the invasion and restore the violated independence of Cyprus and the democratic rights of the Cypriot people
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu May 10, 2012 7:28 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:A ray of hope appeared in 1968 when U Thant, the UN Secretary General proposed that inter-communal talks should commence in order to resolve the Cyprus dispute. Osorio Tafall headed the negotiations, and Glafcos Clerides in his capacity as President of the House of Representatives represented the Greek Cypriots. Rauf Denktash in his capacity as President of the Turkish Communal Chamber represented the Turkish Cypriots. During the first phase of the talks which lasted from the 24th June until the 28th August, the Turkish Cypriots made considerable concessions in that they were prepared to accept broad amendments to the Cyprus Constitution. They agreed; to reduce Turkish Cypriot representation in the House of Representatives from 30% to 20%, to abolish the veto powers of the Vice-President, to abolish the need to acquire separate majorities to enact legislation, and to unify the lower courts. The Turkish Cypriots were prepared to make these concessions on condition that they received some local autonomy to administer their own affairs, and that Greek and Turkish villages were grouped together for the purposes of local administration. Makarios however was not content with the concessions and was adamant that Greek and Turkish villages should not be grouped together. On the 8th December 1972, the last round of inter-communal talks was held. On the 12th December, Clerides had a meeting with Makarios. The uncompromising attitude of Makarios persisted despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriot side had accepted all the 13 points proposed by him in 1963, and even went beyond them. Makarios would not yield on the issue of local government despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriots had; abandoned their demand to group Greek and Turkish villages together, accepted that only the House of Representatives would enact legislation on local government matters, and accepted that administrative control would be exercised on behalf of the Government by a Civil Servant. Clerides strongly advised Makarios to accept the Turkish Cypriot proposals but Makarios would not be persuaded. According to Clerides, the decision of Makarios of 12th December 1972 not to compromise, after the concessions that the Turkish side had made, sealed his fate and that of Cyprus. The die was cast and the worst followed.

Tofallis. K. Dr, A History of Cyprus – An Illustrated History (The Greek Institute, 2002) P. 233



This article is not referenced regarding original documents. The letter by Clerides to Denktash suggests the GCs were making concessions and the TCs were not in fact "accepting the 13 points" other than as part of the 'preliminary' negotiations for discussion, and no more.

There is no other source which backs up your claim that the TCs accepted all 13 points!


This "Greek Institute" is some school which the author set-up in the UK. So he published this book off his own accord? :roll: His site is blocked. Anyway, he seems to be some teacher of Greek language from some other books he also published.

Where did he get the alleged letters from Makarios turning down the offer of Turkey accepting all 13 points? - I really cannot find any such sources!
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu May 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Lordo wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:Turkey had been ready to invade in 64 and 68. In 1973 they probably could not justify an invasion but that they were so able to invade in July 74 just a few days after the Coup shows the true state of affairs.

My own understanding is that a lot of the suffering of the isolated villages after 1968 was caused by the TMT who banned the TSC from contact with the GSC and imposed penalties ony one who disobeyed them.

Your understanding could not be further from the truth. We really must stop pretending that it is somebody else.

After 1968, whilst we were able to survive and life as normal as it could be in the enclaves, it was not TMT stopping people going back to their homes. They were destroyed by EOKA earlier. It was fear of EOKA which stopped people going back to their homes. Whilst I agree with you any trade between the communities were controlled in the cities, there was no such problem in the villages. We traded witrh GCs in other villages no problem. We did not boast about it but there was nothing TMT could do about it.


Not exactly my friend.You were very much afraid to do that even in remote villages like Ayia Eirini, a mixed village in Morfou.I think you call it Akdeniz
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu May 10, 2012 7:50 pm

Here are PRESIDENT MAKARIOS' 13 POINTS


1. The right of veto of the President and the Vice-President of the Republic to be abandoned.
2. The Vice-President of the Republic to deputise for the President of the Republic in case of his temporary absence or in capacity to perform his duties.
3. The Greek President of the House of Representatives and the Turkish Vice-President to be elected by the House as a whole and not as at present the President by the Greek Members of the House and the Vice-President by the Turkish Members of the House.
4. The Vice-President of the House of Representatives to deputise for the President of the House in case of his temporary absence or incapacity to perform his duties.
5. The constitutional provisions regarding separate majorities for enactment of certain laws by the House of Representatives to be abolished.
6. Unified Municipalities to be established.
7. The administration of Justice to be unified.
8. The division of the Security Forces into Police and Gendarmerie to be abolished.
9. The numerical strength of the Security Forces and of the Defence Forces to be determined by a Law.
10. The proportion of the participation of Greek and Turkish Cypriots in the composition of the Public Service and the Forces of the Republic to be modified in proportion to the ratio of the population of Greek and Turkish-Cypriots.
11. The number of the Members of the Public Service Commission to be reduced from ten to five.
12. All decisions of the Public Service Commission to be taken by simple majority.
13. The Greek Communal Chamber to be abolished.

http://www.kypros.org/Cyprus_Problem/13_points.html

Your author said:

They agreed; to reduce Turkish Cypriot representation in the House of Representatives from 30% to 20%, to abolish the veto powers of the Vice-President, to abolish the need to acquire separate majorities to enact legislation, and to unify the lower courts.


... and then made a sweeping statement:

The uncompromising attitude of Makarios persisted despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriot side had accepted all the 13 points proposed by him in 1963,


... which is not backed up by documentary evidence. Nor does it make sense from the stuff he wrote earlier.

Some self-publishing author, without reference to original documents is worthless as any form of evidence - and only a Turk/pro-Turk would continue to spout such unsubstantiated sources to defame Makarios.
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby Panicos UK » Thu May 10, 2012 9:35 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Here are PRESIDENT MAKARIOS' 13 POINTS


1. The right of veto of the President and the Vice-President of the Republic to be abandoned.
2. The Vice-President of the Republic to deputise for the President of the Republic in case of his temporary absence or in capacity to perform his duties.
3. The Greek President of the House of Representatives and the Turkish Vice-President to be elected by the House as a whole and not as at present the President by the Greek Members of the House and the Vice-President by the Turkish Members of the House.
4. The Vice-President of the House of Representatives to deputise for the President of the House in case of his temporary absence or incapacity to perform his duties.
5. The constitutional provisions regarding separate majorities for enactment of certain laws by the House of Representatives to be abolished.
6. Unified Municipalities to be established.
7. The administration of Justice to be unified.
8. The division of the Security Forces into Police and Gendarmerie to be abolished.
9. The numerical strength of the Security Forces and of the Defence Forces to be determined by a Law.
10. The proportion of the participation of Greek and Turkish Cypriots in the composition of the Public Service and the Forces of the Republic to be modified in proportion to the ratio of the population of Greek and Turkish-Cypriots.
11. The number of the Members of the Public Service Commission to be reduced from ten to five.
12. All decisions of the Public Service Commission to be taken by simple majority.
13. The Greek Communal Chamber to be abolished.

http://www.kypros.org/Cyprus_Problem/13_points.html

Your author said:

They agreed; to reduce Turkish Cypriot representation in the House of Representatives from 30% to 20%, to abolish the veto powers of the Vice-President, to abolish the need to acquire separate majorities to enact legislation, and to unify the lower courts.


... and then made a sweeping statement:

The uncompromising attitude of Makarios persisted despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriot side had accepted all the 13 points proposed by him in 1963,


... which is not backed up by documentary evidence. Nor does it make sense from the stuff he wrote earlier.

Some self-publishing author, without reference to original documents is worthless as any form of evidence - and only a Turk/pro-Turk would continue to spout such unsubstantiated sources to defame Makarios.


Hey GIG! Hope you're well. Getting a bit flustered aren't we?

I tried to find reference to the intercommunal talks between 1968 and 1972 on the website you have got your information from. GUESS WHAT? I couldn't find any reference to them whatsoever!

This 'documentary evidence' you refer to, can you give me the link or book so I can investigate it for myself? Again, if you can find the source which backs up your claim, I'll gladly stand corrected. The fact is, I have provided a secondary source, Boulio has provided two sources (one written by Makarios, the other by Clerides) and Bananiot was way ahead of you here also. I think the onus is on you my dear to do a bit of research and see what you can come up with. By the way, Makarios didn't need me to 'defame' him, he did very well on his own.

Also you concede that I might not be a Turk. Thank you so much! I am so grateful and it really means a lot! I couldn't sleep last night - my heart was beating fast, I was in a cold sweat, my mind kept racing, I was restless. I now feel much better. Thank you once again. I can't tell you what it means. Nashis tin efgin mou kori.
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu May 10, 2012 10:09 pm

Panicos UK wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Here are PRESIDENT MAKARIOS' 13 POINTS


1. The right of veto of the President and the Vice-President of the Republic to be abandoned.
2. The Vice-President of the Republic to deputise for the President of the Republic in case of his temporary absence or in capacity to perform his duties.
3. The Greek President of the House of Representatives and the Turkish Vice-President to be elected by the House as a whole and not as at present the President by the Greek Members of the House and the Vice-President by the Turkish Members of the House.
4. The Vice-President of the House of Representatives to deputise for the President of the House in case of his temporary absence or incapacity to perform his duties.
5. The constitutional provisions regarding separate majorities for enactment of certain laws by the House of Representatives to be abolished.
6. Unified Municipalities to be established.
7. The administration of Justice to be unified.
8. The division of the Security Forces into Police and Gendarmerie to be abolished.
9. The numerical strength of the Security Forces and of the Defence Forces to be determined by a Law.
10. The proportion of the participation of Greek and Turkish Cypriots in the composition of the Public Service and the Forces of the Republic to be modified in proportion to the ratio of the population of Greek and Turkish-Cypriots.
11. The number of the Members of the Public Service Commission to be reduced from ten to five.
12. All decisions of the Public Service Commission to be taken by simple majority.
13. The Greek Communal Chamber to be abolished.

http://www.kypros.org/Cyprus_Problem/13_points.html

Your author said:

They agreed; to reduce Turkish Cypriot representation in the House of Representatives from 30% to 20%, to abolish the veto powers of the Vice-President, to abolish the need to acquire separate majorities to enact legislation, and to unify the lower courts.


... and then made a sweeping statement:

The uncompromising attitude of Makarios persisted despite the fact that the Turkish Cypriot side had accepted all the 13 points proposed by him in 1963,


... which is not backed up by documentary evidence. Nor does it make sense from the stuff he wrote earlier.

Some self-publishing author, without reference to original documents is worthless as any form of evidence - and only a Turk/pro-Turk would continue to spout such unsubstantiated sources to defame Makarios.


Hey GIG! Hope you're well. Getting a bit flustered aren't we?

I tried to find reference to the intercommunal talks between 1968 and 1972 on the website you have got your information from. GUESS WHAT? I couldn't find any reference to them whatsoever!

This 'documentary evidence' you refer to, can you give me the link or book so I can investigate it for myself? Again, if you can find the source which backs up your claim, I'll gladly stand corrected. The fact is, I have provided a secondary source, Boulio has provided two sources (one written by Makarios, the other by Clerides) and Bananiot was way ahead of you here also. I think the onus is on you my dear to do a bit of research and see what you can come up with. By the way, Makarios didn't need me to 'defame' him, he did very well on his own.

Also you concede that I might not be a Turk. Thank you so much! I am so grateful and it really means a lot! I couldn't sleep last night - my heart was beating fast, I was in a cold sweat, my mind kept racing, I was restless. I now feel much better. Thank you once again. I can't tell you what it means. Nashis tin efgin mou kori.


Not flustered at all - merely explaining the brick walls I came to trying to substantiate your claim for the 13 points. No one has ever managed to back it up. Basically, your claim is defunct. :)

I can give you the document numbers for the quotes I provided if you want. You can then order them from the UK Ministry (National Archives of Great Britain) or they are catalogued by the former British Diplomat in : Mallinson, W., (2011) Britain and Cyprus: Key Themes and Documents Since World War II.
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby SKI-preo » Fri May 11, 2012 3:25 am

Viewpoint wrote:Option 2 is the only realistic way forward to a solution.


Maybe, but which refugees miss out? Its so arbitrary and inconsistent.
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Re: Status Quo solutions

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri May 11, 2012 3:55 am

...it is point 13 which i find contentiuos, it means that the Turkish population can collect taxes for themselves (if they can), yet the State will collect taxes for the representation of Greeks; in my opinion outside the Universal Principals which the other points, for the most part, fall into.

...as a "Greek" it is obvious that Makarios could have realised his dream, but Denktash proves an equal in a nature just as steadfast to his "Turkishness". two hundred years from now there may be a different perspective; curious how both at the most critical moments chose Cyprus, and their love for this island over the desires for their respective "Motherlands".

taxation is the key. electors close to their tax dollars...

...thus Bicommunal is a Unitary State. and (so that) beyond this identity of a Cypriot as an Individual, within it, National Assemblies allow its Citizens to represent themselves as Persons as well, having Territorial Jurisdictions toward sustaining their unique distinctions by reflecting as a Majority their Goodwill by recognising and respecting the equality of the Minorities amongst them.

point 13, the complete denial of the Communal Chamber, a shame, because it is the kernal of an idea directed toward the larger Problem of ethnospheres and their imminent extinction generally; if this kind of recognition and respect does not work on a tiny island like Cyprus, refined and socialised as a Culture, think what that means about the state of Mankind, and how easy it is for people with evil minds to plunder.

Panicos, file, welcome; firstly.

...if some of this makes sense to you, please read my letter to Ban KI-Moon, or my manifesto thingy.

a Status Quo solution demonstrates an end to the Problem where in reform our Humanity comes first, with Cypriots welcoming their diversity as a Heritance, with the same care they give to their Environment; any change which does not conform to these Principals which, Lest We Forget, are Universal, wishes their Ignorance instead. things must change in Cyprus, they cannot stay the same, and unchanging (at least in this respect), a demonstration to Mankind of this
Integrity is necessary: Cyprus is not just property; Freedom for Cyprus, Freedom for Cypriots.
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