Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

Deleted - Double posting

[Vassos1]

NIKIFOROS

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your comments, I like reading your responses as I am interested in views of our up and coming Greek Cypriots. My view can sometimes seem old fashioned, but I guess that comes with my age and experience.

No country--Greece, Turkey, Britain, or any other--should be allowed to maintain a military presence on united Cyprus. Not even a token presence.

Annan 5 would allow the Turks to maintain intervention rights in Cyprus, even in the Greek constituent state in the south.THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!

You worry that TRNC will be recognized by some. THE ROC GOVERNMENT AND GREEK GOVERNMENT SHOULD MAKE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THIS WOULD MEAN AN AUTOMATIC VETO OF EU MEMBERSHIP FOR TURKEY AND THE IMMEDIATE END OF ACCESSION NEGOTIATIONS.

I would like to briefly respond to your quote above. Whether you are aware of why the Turkish Military needs time to disband may just be the reason why you have decided to respond in a negative way. The former Turkish Armed Forces Commander, in his time, had clearly said that due to the types of armaments installed in northern Cyprus, it would take at least 8 years to completely remove them. What I understand by that explains clearly why we need a two republic formula. Please do not close your eyes to the fact that we also have our fair share of military equipment embedded in the Trod-Mountains, which will also need huge amounts of planning and time to remove. The only way to remove the “intervention rights” of Turkey, Greece and the UK is to totally remove the Turks out of the 1960 constitution, thus meaning that either we amend the current Cyprus constitution to only include us (which is impossible), or sign a new agreement allowing the Turkish Cypriots to formulate a new constitution with references to the 1960 constitution. Let’s remember that, UK MPs have made it very clear to us that if we decide to look at all of the legal parameters of the 1960 Cyprus constitution, our EU membership would also be classed as being invalid, our total representation of the ROC would be invalid, and Turkey (if they didn’t have such a dream of entering the EU) would probably have legally interfered with the many relationships, legal documents and representations we have built since 1974. In other words, the present 1960 Constitution can easily be questioned within its present implementation. This is why we need an agreement, before Turkey realises that the EU may not offer them entirely what it is that they are seeking. If we attempt to Veto Turkey’s EU bid, I am afraid that Turkey would suddenly play a very different ball game, in a way that would probably destroy the present understanding of the Cyprus we have developed since 1974. Please let’s not concentrate on the original Cyprus constitution, or threaten to Veto Turkey’s EU bid without fully understanding its consequences. This is the main reason why I am requesting a new hand-shack, one that will either include the Turkish Cypriots in a new plan, or one that will remove them from the Constitution that we currently live by. Please refer to a professional barrister for some real advice regarding the Cyprus constitution.


Alexis and Cypezokli:
Thank you both for your replies, and I apologies to Alexis if I may have been a little harsh with my words. I will re-cap on the Cyprus constitution in my next positing. If the EU reverts to the EEC, as expected by many thinkheads in Germany, France and the UK, I am afraid that the Turkey’s stance on the Cyprus issue would change greatly. Our hands will no doubt be squeezed and we may suddenly realise that the Annan Plan offered a far better deal than we could have possibly imagined. My suggestions are only geared in the view that although I also disagreed with the Annan Plan, our rejection did not give the so-called TRNC its recognition status only because of Turkey’s EU membership dreams. If the EU was to revert to the EEC, then I am certain that Turkey, if an agreement in Cyprus is not made by then, would make it extremely hard for us in the future. As in 1974, we are seriously under estimating Turkey’s reactions, but this time our lose will mean a legal division accepted by all.

Birkibrisli: I am afraid that, as you may have said; my reasons for wanting two-republic states differ greatly from the reasons of your Turkish brothers on Northern Cyprus and Turkey. Although I think that Cyprus would be better off by accepting the realities of two very distinct peoples on the island, I still believe that the Turkish Cypriots are very lucky that we have accepted them after the overwhelming support that they had shown to the Turkish Army in the invasion of 1974. Even my Turkish Cypriot next door neighbours held their guns towards us when we were being forced to leave our homes by UN guardsman. My trust has never been the same. I am sorry.

[BirKibrisli]

VAssos,

I am afraid that, as you may have said; my reasons for wanting two-republic states differ greatly from the reasons of your Turkish brothers on Northern Cyprus and Turkey. Although I think that Cyprus would be better off by accepting the realities of two very distinct peoples on the island, I still believe that the Turkish Cypriots are very lucky that we have accepted them after the overwhelming support that they had shown to the Turkish Army in the invasion of 1974. Even my Turkish Cypriot next door neighbours held their guns towards us when we were being forced to leave our homes by UN guardsman. My trust has never been the same. I am sorry.

I too am sorry that you feel that way.Trust is of course our biggest obstacle in solving Cypro.Believe me I can imagine your feelings,as betrayal is worse when it comes from people close to you like your TC neighbours.But cast your mind back to the years 1964-74.Did you ever consider then what the TCs felt as people totally disenfranchised in their own country? When you went about your business of living a normal life,their sense of security and sense of belonging had been shot to pieces.No wonder they welcomed Turkey with open arms.You would've done exactly the same in their situation.

Do you really think we are "two very distinct peoples" in Cyprus?
If you believe that, you've probably never met a TC on a human level,only dealt with them in an official capacity.Otherwise you would know that TCs are more like GCs in mentality, temperament,sense of humour,food,traitions,folklore even,than like people from Turkey.I've lived with Greeks and GCs in Australia,I know this for sure.
As I said elsewhere,your solution for Cyprus makes the same mistake as those who wanted ENOSIS and called it self-determination,perhaps for lack of imagination or of empathy with the TCs.It will be a step backwards.It will be a betrayal of Cyprus and its people.
What is the difference between you and the nationalist TCs who want Partition?

[bg_turk]

Do you really think we are "two very distinct peoples" in Cyprus?
If you believe that, you've probably never met a TC on a human level,only dealt with them in an official capacity.Otherwise you would know that TCs are more like GCs in mentality, temperament,sense of humour,food,traitions,folklore even,than like people from Turkey.I've lived with Greeks and GCs in Australia,I know this for sure.
As I said elsewhere,your solution for Cyprus makes the same mistake as those who wanted ENOSIS and called it self-determination,perhaps for lack of imagination or of empathy with the TCs.It will be a step backwards.It will be a betrayal of Cyprus and its people.
What is the difference between you and the nationalist TCs who want Partition?

Birkibrisli,

there is no end in sight to your idealism. Unification in the true sense, like that of West and East Germany, cannot be achieved.
Do you think GCs want unifcation because they want to live with you, or any other TCs. Of course not! They simply seek more land and their only means of achieving that is through unification. I know you have good intetnions, but in many cases it is good intetnions, that bring bad results.

Besides if you wish to live peacefully as a minority in a greek cyprus, nothing is stopping you from doing it even now, you are always free to move to the south, aren't you?

Partition between TCs and GCs is already a relaity, and even if the borders are dissolved and artificial unifcation is achieved under some form, ovecoming the psychological partition will be extremely hard, and will likely end in failure. But this time since Turkey will not be around the cost of this failure will be entirely on TCs.

[BirKibrisli]

Merhaba,bg_turk
You must let yourself dream if you want to achieve what seems to most people as the impossible.If something is worth fighting for (metaphorically ) you must fight for it.Not give up because everyone tells you it is impossible.

AS you say,nothing is stopping me from living peacefully in the RoC (not Greek Cyprus!)as a minority,but I don't think it will be much fun if I am a minority of one.But a minority of 20% is another matter.

I agree that overcoming psychological partition will be very hard,and might end in failure.But what if we succeed?????We will show the world that two ethnic communities can make one nation.Wouldn't that be something?

[Alexis]

I agree that overcoming psychological partition will be very hard,and might end in failure.But what if we succeed?????We will show the world that two ethnic communities can make one nation.Wouldn't that be something?

I'm with you on this one Birkibrisli. So are a number of other GCs and TCs alike.

[bg_turk]

but I don't think it will be much fun if I am a minority of one.But a minority of 20% is another matter.

So you are saying basically if you get into big trouble, at least you will have the reconciliatoin that the other TCs will be in the same situation as well.

But what if we succeed?????We will show the world that two ethnic communities can make one nation.Wouldn't that be something?

When the odds against such an eventuality are overwhelming, how wise it is to take the risk?

[zan]

Merhaba,bg_turk
You must let yourself dream if you want to achieve what seems to most people as the impossible.If something is worth fighting for (metaphorically ) you must fight for it.Not give up because everyone tells you it is impossible.

AS you say,nothing is stopping me from living peacefully in the RoC (not Greek Cyprus!)as a minority,but I don't think it will be much fun if I am a minority of one.But a minority of 20% is another matter.

I agree that overcoming psychological partition will be very hard,and might end in failure.But what if we succeed?????We will show the world that two ethnic communities can make one nation.Wouldn't that be something?

Vladimir Lenin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse_tung, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussain, Benito Mussolini, Karl Marx.

Wright brothers. Mari Curri, Alexander Fleming, Neil Armstrong, Christopher Columbus.


There are dreams and then there are dreams. Some play with only a few lives whilst others with millions.

[BirKibrisli]

Zan gardash,
you forgot Ghandi, Martin Luther King,Nelson mandela,Abraham Lincoln,Kemal Ataturk,Jesus Christ,Mohammed,Moses,Socrates et al...

You have to aim for the sky if you want to go to the stars.Sometimes you will get there.Other times you will burn or burn out,but others who will follow you might eventually achieve your dreams.No easy way I am afraid.

[BirKibrisli]

but I don't think it will be much fun if I am a minority of one.But a minority of 20% is another matter.

So you are saying basically if you get into big trouble, at least you will have the reconciliatoin that the other TCs will be in the same situation as well.

But what if we succeed?????We will show the world that two ethnic communities can make one nation.Wouldn't that be something?

When the odds against such an eventuality are overwhelming, how wise it is to take the risk?

Do you know the Turkish saying "Choklukta olum bile tatlidir",bg_turk.
(Even death is sweet if you have good company)