Cyprus-Forum.com

[Maximus]

Paphitis

Your overlooking that ISIL is an off shoot of the free Syrian army and the other mercenaries and terrorists that were backed by the "west" to destabalize and to change the regime in Syria.

They created the problem in Syria (and the Ukraine) in the first place. Just like in Cyprus.

I don't know what they are an offshoot of.

The leader of ISIL, Al Baghdadi was actually in US custody but they had to let him go.

Fighters have been toing and froing from FSA, Al Nusra and ISIL all the time, but out of all of them, the FSA is the most moderate and favored by the West.

there has been no collaboration with the FSA as yet, only the Kurds!

They are all mercenaries, backed by the "west" to destabalize and change the regime in Syria.

They just keep rebranding these groups to add layers upon layers of deceit to cover their tracks.

That's not true Max!

the US has never backed anyone other than the ISF!

I dont think so but I am sure that the US thinks it is OK to overthrow governments with paid mercenaries and install bribed governments in these country's that will be puppets and friendly to it.

This is clandestine imperialism.

[Paphitis]

The U.S. needs to know what comes after an overthrow, and in case you have not notice the U.S. through its own admission had no such plan or strategy with regards to Syria.

Overthrowing a government is not wise unless you can control the country and control what or who is going to replace it. I shall remind you that Israel shares a border with Syria and they are armed with weapons of mass destruction so destabilizing the area without a strategy is not a great idea for the world!

[Maximus]

The U.S. needs to know what comes after an overthrow, and in case you have not notice the U.S. through its own admission had no such plan or strategy with regards to Syria.

Overthrowing a government is not wise unless you can control the country and control what or who is going to replace it. I shall remind you that Israel shares a border with Syria and they are armed with weapons of mass destruction so destabilizing the area without a strategy is not a great idea for the world!

re Paphitis,

The west has been doing this for decades.

Ukraine is the most recent example.

[Paphitis]

The U.S. needs to know what comes after an overthrow, and in case you have not notice the U.S. through its own admission had no such plan or strategy with regards to Syria.

Overthrowing a government is not wise unless you can control the country and control what or who is going to replace it. I shall remind you that Israel shares a border with Syria and they are armed with weapons of mass destruction so destabilizing the area without a strategy is not a great idea for the world!

re Paphitis,

The west has been doing this for decades.

Ukraine is the most recent example.

We disagree Max! But no matter.

At the end of the day, ISIL needs to be dealt with and on top of that, Russia needs to be confronted and it is because what they are doing is no different to Turkey in Cyprus. No one in their right mind can defend Russia's actions against Ukraine.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

No one in their right mind can defend Russia's actions against Ukraine.

It wasn't Russia the instigated the coup. The US were the culprits that put a right wing (Nazi) party in power who then laid out their plans for Crimea and what they had planned for the ethnic Russians. Their natural response was for the ethnic Russian Ukrainians living in Crimea to ask for help from the Russians, especially after the Odessa massacre. The Russians did not invade Crimea, they were already there, well 16,000 of them, by agreement with the elected Ukraine Government that the US had deposed in a coup they planned.(Regime Change?) By their actions the Russians prevented what has happened in Eastern Ukraine. The Russians prevented violence whilst the people held a referendum to break from Ukraine. It was overwhelmingly voted for and then the people, under direct threat from the Ukraine army and a host of 'private Militias' asked for Russia to annex Crimea ..... which they did. Nobody died, there was no mass destruction of property, no refugees and the Russians were protecting their rights under the legal agreement to retain the Crimean Naval Facilities.

I don't really see what it is that Russia did that was so bad to result in the US imposing sanctions, which in itself is an act of war! (Note US Sanctions not UN sanctions as you previously stated, UN General Assembly resolutions need a vote in the Security Council before they have any legal status) The UN is a lame duck and is unfit for purpose. To enhance their legitimacy, the US accused Russia of shooting down MH17. In spite of all Kerry's rhetoric about convincing evidence, the only tangible evidence so far has come from the Russians that points the finger at the Ukraine Coup Government for downing the aircraft ......... the US has remained remarkably silent and every thing the Ukrainians have come up with has been disproved. The Western press has ignored MH17 whilst the Russians are the ones who have kept the story alive. Hardly the actions of a government that was guilty as charged?

So, yes I would defend Russia's actions ..................... the US and its US installed, un-elected, extreme right wing government has consistently failed to present any evidence that supports their accusations against Russia. When they do maybe I will change my mind.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

No one in their right mind can defend Russia's actions against Ukraine.

It wasn't Russia the instigated the coup. The US were the culprits that put a right wing (Nazi) party in power who then laid out their plans for Crimea and what they had planned for the ethnic Russians. Their natural response was for the ethnic Russian Ukrainians living in Crimea to ask for help from the Russians, especially after the Odessa massacre. The Russians did not invade Crimea, they were already there, well 16,000 of them, by agreement with the elected Ukraine Government that the US had deposed in a coup they planned.(Regime Change?) By their actions the Russians prevented what has happened in Eastern Ukraine. The Russians prevented violence whilst the people held a referendum to break from Ukraine. It was overwhelmingly voted for and then the people, under direct threat from the Ukraine army and a host of 'private Militias' asked for Russia to annex Crimea ..... which they did. Nobody died, there was no mass destruction of property, no refugees and the Russians were protecting their rights under the legal agreement to retain the Crimean Naval Facilities.

I don't really see what it is that Russia did that was so bad to result in the US imposing sanctions, which in itself is an act of war! (Note US Sanctions not UN sanctions as you previously stated, UN General Assembly resolutions need a vote in the Security Council before they have any legal status) The UN is a lame duck and is unfit for purpose. To enhance their legitimacy, the US accused Russia of shooting down MH17. In spite of all Kerry's rhetoric about convincing evidence, the only tangible evidence so far has come from the Russians that points the finger at the Ukraine Coup Government for downing the aircraft ......... the US has remained remarkably silent and every thing the Ukrainians have come up with has been disproved. The Western press has ignored MH17 whilst the Russians are the ones who have kept the story alive. Hardly the actions of a government that was guilty as charged?

So, yes I would defend Russia's actions ..................... the US and its US installed, un-elected, extreme right wing government has consistently failed to present any evidence that supports their accusations against Russia. When they do maybe I will change my mind.

What are you saying RH? That Russia had a right to invade Ukraine because their Parliament Deposed a traitorous Government that was doing Russia's bidding?

When their soldiers come out of their barracks, then that is an invasion. Can the British Soldiers actually leave Akrotiri and Dhekelia and into the RoC without permission from the RoC Government? No obviously not! On top of that, we have intelligence and information that there are indeed Russian Troops within the Eastern frontier of Ukraine. Quite a few thousand of them and MH17 was indeed shot down by a Russian Missile System belonging to Russia itself.

And why do you refer to them as a NAZI Government? That really is old hat and you're falling foul of Goodwin's Law?

As for the Sanctions, they were supported by the vast majority of the UN General Assembly, and moved by the Republic of Cyprus of all nations.

This gives the sanctions some legitimacy. There is no chance that the sanctions will pass the Security Council because Russia will always veto it.

[Robin Hood]

What are you saying RH? That Russia had a right to invade Ukraine because their Parliament Deposed a traitorous Government that was doing Russia's bidding?

Where is all this irrefutable evidence of this invasion by thousands of Russian Troops that the Ukrainians claim? Surely the US can come up with a few satellite images or the Ukies with a few mobile pictures? As I said, so far everything (EVERYTHING!) the Ukies have come up with has turned out to be a load of bullshit.

Their Parliament did not depose the elected President, a foreign inspired coup by Neo Nazi’s did and the US (Nuland) has said that the US had spent $5bn over about 10 years supporting NGO’s that were anti-Russian. There are even recordings of Nuland deciding who would get jobs in the new government ...... and that was BEFORE the President was driven out.

Their first utterances as the new un-elected Government was to threaten the Eastern Ukraine (Which is mainly ethnic Russian) and the legitimate Russian base at Sevastopol. The fact that Yanucovitch opposed the EU deal was because it was a bad deal for Ukraine and the deal offered by Russia was better. As a businessman what would you have done?

There is no doubt Yanucovitch was a thieving individual but remember many of the ‘Palaces’ and treasures he had, he took from Julia Timoshenko, who also did deals with the Russians that suited her! They were all corrupt and still are.

When their soldiers come out of their barracks, then that is an invasion. Can the British Soldiers actually leave Akrotiri and Dhekelia and into the RoC without permission from the RoC Government? No obviously not! On top of that, we have intelligence and information that there are indeed Russian Troops within the Eastern frontier of Ukraine. Quite a few thousand of them and MH17 was indeed shot down by a Russian Missile System belonging to Russia itself.

Technically yes but, if the 20,000(?) Brits in Cyprus were being threatened by extreme right wing elements put into power by a foreign instigated coup in Nicosia ..... I am sure we would be pleased to see the British Forces on the base coming to our aid.

And why do you refer to them as a NAZI Government?

Because it is a government comprised of extreme right elements that idolise the Nazi doctrines. They use the same anti-Semitic and Anti-Russian policies as the Nazi’s and their symbols ..... even to the salute! They are what the label says.

As for the Sanctions, they were supported by the vast majority of the UN General Assembly, and moved by the Republic of Cyprus of all nations.

‘Vast majority’! I don’t think that is true and anyway, why do you use a UNGA vote as justification? Last month for the 20th+ year running the UNGA voted for lifting of US sanctions against Cuba. For the 20th year running the vote was more or less the same ...... the vast majority ‘FOR’ and just two ‘AGAINST’ ...... The USA and Israel. The vote was ignored by the US so why should Russia take any notice of the UNGA?

This gives the sanctions some legitimacy. There is no chance that the sanctions will pass the Security Council because Russia will always veto it.

These sanctions are US sanctions not UN sanctions. They have no legitimacy because I think you will find that of the 200 or so countries that are members of the UN, those that support the sanctions are mainly US allies (Canada and Australia), NATO countries and countries that rely upon US aid to survive. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you ..... even if you don’t like them!

As for MH17 .............. the West has provided US driven rhetoric and nothing else! The Russians provided RADAR records and satellite information showing events just three days after it happened. Within a couple of hours Ukraine issued recordings of conversations between the rebels and their Russian handlers which 'clearly showed' that it was the Rebels/Russians that were responsible. The IT specialists analysed the recordings and by the date/time signatures which cannot be tampered with proved the tape was comprised of parts of several recordings spliced together ...... and at least one had a date signature that preceded the event!!!!! This was the ‘irrefutable’ evidence that Kerry was quick to exploit. To date none of the information that the Ukies could have released immediately, has come to light and neither has the US information.

Just last week new footage was released on the BBC of the MH17 disaster taken minutes after the event which showed wreckage raining down next to a village. Plenty of pictures of black smoke and wreckage but not I single shot of the pronounced BUK vapour trial which would have been clearly visible for at least ten minutes.

Try a few of the following ........ your view of events seems to mirror the main stream media view, I think you should broaden your sources. I always read both MSM and independent news sources .... I even watch RT and can honestly say that their reporting has far more credibility than that given by the BBC, CNN, SKY etc.

I took the following all from the same source but these stories are all available on a whole bunch of independent news sites ...... but most of it never made it onto the MSM!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-what-is-the-joint-investigation-team-what-is-it-for-whos-leading-it-and-why-is-malaysia-excluded/5417589

http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-downed-by-ukrainian-military-aircraft-kiev-regime-false-flag/5414173

http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814

http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-ordered-to-fly-over-the-east-ukraine-warzone/5392540

http://www.globalresearch.ca/desperate-mh-17-intelligence-spin-by-ukraine-secret-service-pro-russian-rebels-had-targeted-a-russian-passenger-plane/5395501

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/memories-recollection-guesses-and.html

I actually have about 60 articles and videos on file that I would be happy to share with you. There are even reports by a retired Lufthansa pilot giving expert opinion on the 'small high speed projectiles' that bought MH17 down(Dutch Safety Board interim report) otherwise know to ordinary people as bullets !(specifically .....30mm cannon shells)

[Paphitis]

What are you saying RH? That Russia had a right to invade Ukraine because their Parliament Deposed a traitorous Government that was doing Russia's bidding?

Where is all this irrefutable evidence of this invasion by thousands of Russian Troops that the Ukrainians claim? Surely the US can come up with a few satellite images or the Ukies with a few mobile pictures? As I said, so far everything (EVERYTHING!) the Ukies have come up with has turned out to be a load of bullshit.

It exists RH, it just can't be published for our benefit.

There was an incident where the Australian Prime Minister offered to show Putin satellite imagery of troop and equipment movements and also the trajectory of their missile at the G20.

We have the iPhone pictures from field agents as well, but that is not the evidence I talk about. I am talking about the Satellite Imagery.

Their Parliament did not depose the elected President, a foreign inspired coup by Neo Nazi’s did and the US (Nuland) has said that the US had spent $5bn over about 10 years supporting NGO’s that were anti-Russian. There are even recordings of Nuland deciding who would get jobs in the new government ...... and that was BEFORE the President was driven out.

You're being sensationalist. The Parliament actually voted the former "President" out as per their constitution. There was a serious loss of confidence.

Their first utterances as the new un-elected Government was to threaten the Eastern Ukraine (Which is mainly ethnic Russian) and the legitimate Russian base at Sevastopol. The fact that Yanucovitch opposed the EU deal was because it was a bad deal for Ukraine and the deal offered by Russia was better. As a businessman what would you have done?

Well, he had no right to oppose the EU deal because joining the EU was the wish of the majority of Ukrainians. He was just following his instructions from Mother Russia as he was their lap dog.

There is no doubt Yanucovitch was a thieving individual but remember many of the ‘Palaces’ and treasures he had, he took from Julia Timoshenko, who also did deals with the Russians that suited her! They were all corrupt and still are.

I would imagine that Ukrainian Politics is generally pretty corrupt. But still, there is no excusing Russia's illegal actions.

When their soldiers come out of their barracks, then that is an invasion. Can the British Soldiers actually leave Akrotiri and Dhekelia and into the RoC without permission from the RoC Government? No obviously not! On top of that, we have intelligence and information that there are indeed Russian Troops within the Eastern frontier of Ukraine. Quite a few thousand of them and MH17 was indeed shot down by a Russian Missile System belonging to Russia itself.

Technically yes but, if the 20,000(?) Brits in Cyprus were being threatened by extreme right wing elements put into power by a foreign instigated coup in Nicosia ..... I am sure we would be pleased to see the British Forces on the base coming to our aid.

Sorry but that did not happen. It was the Ethnic Russians who were causing a lot of insurrection.

And even if British Citizens were threatened in Cyprus, Britain does not have the right to invade. It should report these illegalities to the UN and endeaver to get all Brits to evacuate themselves to the SBAs where they are safe.

And why do you refer to them as a NAZI Government?

Because it is a government comprised of extreme right elements that idolise the Nazi doctrines. They use the same anti-Semitic and Anti-Russian policies as the Nazi’s and their symbols ..... even to the salute! They are what the label says.

There are extreme Right Wing elements in Cyprus, Greece and UK. This does not make them NAZIs.

As for the Sanctions, they were supported by the vast majority of the UN General Assembly, and moved by the Republic of Cyprus of all nations.

‘Vast majority’! I don’t think that is true and anyway, why do you use a UNGA vote as justification? Last month for the 20th+ year running the UNGA voted for lifting of US sanctions against Cuba. For the 20th year running the vote was more or less the same ...... the vast majority ‘FOR’ and just two ‘AGAINST’ ...... The USA and Israel. The vote was ignored by the US so why should Russia take any notice of the UNGA?

Here is a resolution affirming Ukraine's sovereignty and condemning Russia's illegal intervention. There is a full list of how countries voted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... ion_68/262

This gives the sanctions some legitimacy. There is no chance that the sanctions will pass the Security Council because Russia will always veto it.

These sanctions are US sanctions not UN sanctions. They have no legitimacy because I think you will find that of the 200 or so countries that are members of the UN, those that support the sanctions are mainly US allies (Canada and Australia), NATO countries and countries that rely upon US aid to survive. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you ..... even if you don’t like them!

The sanctions are actually International. There are literally dozens of countries that have imposed sanctions.

Sanctions were strengthened in the wake of the downing of MH17 and the prime movers of this were in fact Holland, and Australia.

As for MH17 .............. the West has provided US driven rhetoric and nothing else! The Russians provided RADAR records and satellite information showing events just three days after it happened. Within a couple of hours Ukraine issued recordings of conversations between the rebels and their Russian handlers which 'clearly showed' that it was the Rebels/Russians that were responsible. The IT specialists analysed the recordings and by the date/time signatures which cannot be tampered with proved the tape was comprised of parts of several recordings spliced together ...... and at least one had a date signature that preceded the event!!!!! This was the ‘irrefutable’ evidence that Kerry was quick to exploit. To date none of the information that the Ukies could have released immediately, has come to light and neither has the US information.

Yes we are aware that the Russians have provided sterile "evidence" on the downing of MH17.

Unfortunately, we also have our own evidence which clearly points the finger at Russia and this was stressed to Putin face to face by Tony Abbot. Not only this, bit investigators will be able to examine some fragments from the crash site.

Just last week new footage was released on the BBC of the MH17 disaster taken minutes after the event which showed wreckage raining down next to a village. Plenty of pictures of black smoke and wreckage but not I single shot of the pronounced BUK vapour trial which would have been clearly visible for at least ten minutes.

That does not surprise me. it was also very overcast!

Try a few of the following ........ your view of events seems to mirror the main stream media view, I think you should broaden your sources. I always read both MSM and independent news sources .... I even watch RT and can honestly say that their reporting has far more credibility than that given by the BBC, CNN, SKY etc.

And you'rs seem to mirror Global Research which has it's own agenda.

I took the following all from the same source but these stories are all available on a whole bunch of independent news sites ...... but most of it never made it onto the MSM!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-what-is-the-joint-investigation-team-what-is-it-for-whos-leading-it-and-why-is-malaysia-excluded/5417589

http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-downed-by-ukrainian-military-aircraft-kiev-regime-false-flag/5414173

http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814

http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-ordered-to-fly-over-the-east-ukraine-warzone/5392540

http://www.globalresearch.ca/desperate-mh-17-intelligence-spin-by-ukraine-secret-service-pro-russian-rebels-had-targeted-a-russian-passenger-plane/5395501

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/memories-recollection-guesses-and.html

I really got a problem with your sources. The reason why I have a problem is because every single piece seems to have a very clear anti American focus. There is no balance at all. So when you talk about the CNN, BBC etc - at least they don't go all out to bash on Russia at every opportunity and with such vitriolic and unsubstantiated sensationalist rubbish!

I never read Global Research anymore, because I just can't take it seriously.

I actually have about 60 articles and videos on file that I would be happy to share with you. There are even reports by a retired Lufthansa pilot giving expert opinion on the 'small high speed projectiles' that bought MH17 down(Dutch Safety Board interim report) otherwise know to ordinary people as bullets !(specifically .....30mm cannon shells)

Yes during every Air Crash the experts seem to come out of the wood work.

Now let me ask you this. What would an airline pilot know about Missile Fragments from a Russian Air defence system? Bugger all!

I still recall the Canadian Airline Pilot )"expert) that was bought out to give us his wisdom about MH340. It was the most ludicrous explanation I ever heard in my life, and yet many International Media outlets published his "expert" analysis.

[Paphitis]

RH,

as for news sources, I have no issue with many alternatives such Guardian, Al Jazeera, as well as Fairfax as opposed to Murdoch's News Limited , but Global Research is just pure nonsense.

As a matter of fact, I favour Fairfax (and they lean towards the left) even though my partner worked for News Limited for over a decade.

Left Wing papers can go anti American or have a slight slant but they do have some dejure balance in their reporting. They don't just Bash on the US for the sake of it and at every opportunity. they back their articles up with evidence on most occasions and they leave the rest to opinion.

[Robin Hood]

It exists RH, it just can't be published for our benefit.

How awfully convenient!

There was an incident where the Australian Prime Minister offered to show Putin satellite imagery of troop and equipment movements and also the trajectory of their missile at the G20.

I wasn’t there so I can’t comment on what your Prime minister showed Putin. Troop movements? The satellite pictures I have seen so far have all been movements inside Russia! As Lavrof said a few days age ‘How dare Russia have the affront to have its borders so close to NATO’s military! I believe the location of the ‘trajectory’ satellite pictures were ‘questionable’ as they had no GPS info?

We have the iPhone pictures from field agents as well, but that is not the evidence I talk about. I am talking about the Satellite Imagery.

Which has yet to be released! The same with the secret (‘if- I- told- you - I- would- have- to- kill- you’) Ukie ATC/RADAR records, the flight recorders Voice and Data, the disappearance of the Spanish ATC guy who ‘Tweeted’ a minute-by-minute account of events as they took place. Nothing released by the Ukrainians has any credibility and all we get from the US is silence.

It was the Ethnic Russians who were causing a lot of insurrection.

I think if my home and family were threatened by a bunch of thugs who clearly had it ‘in-for-me’, I would’ insurrect’ as well.

Yes we are aware that the Russians have provided sterile "evidence" on the downing of MH17.

Why sterile, that demonstrates bias? It was presented a few days after the event! So far the west has failed to reciprocate ….. as you point out ‘can’t be published’ presumably to protect the US’s National Security? Whereas the Russians would not have had the time to ‘cook-the-books’, the five months since has given the west ample opportunity to ‘modify’ or ‘lose’ any inconvenient evidence. Even if the US released its data now it would be regarded with suspicion by any sensible person. Believe me, if they had the evidence the whole world would know about it!

(The BUK vapour trail) That does not surprise me,. it was also very overcast!

Wrong many witnesses, even those on the BBC Russian Service report from the site, saw the aircraft from the ground, but not one of them mentioned a vapour trail. Proved by weather reports …. there were some local patches of cloud, it was not overcast. The BBC video was also pulled from their site, which says it obviously did not conform with the ‘official’ story. The latest videos also show that it was almost a clear blue sky at the time.

And yours (opinion) seem to mirror Global Research which has its own agenda

.
I don’t think Global Research has an agenda as such, it may have a bias to report news not found on the MSM but that is no bad thing. As I said, all of these are available on a whole host of independent news sites. I chose GR because it is easy to follow, quick to find what is of interest and well laid out. It is only a collection point for independent journalists to publish reports that would otherwise not see the light of day and has no editorial control over what articles published present ……….. they also publish reports found in New York Times, The Guardian, The Independent etc………. and even The Daily Mail!!!

I really got a problem with your sources. The reason why I have a problem is because every single piece seems to have a very clear anti American focus. There is no balance at all. So when you talk about the CNN, BBC etc - at least they don't go all out to bash on Russia at every opportunity and with such vitriolic and unsubstantiated sensationalist rubbish!

I find Russia/Putin bashing/bias the basis of most MSM reports! I don’t have a problem with Putin being found guilty but ……let us at least see the evidence and have a proper independent investigation as the Russians have called for over-and-over again, before we execute him and turn Russia into a nuclear waste land? I am sorry but the’ vitriol and unsubstantiated sensational rubbish’ seems to be the reserve of the MSM. If you read/listen to the Russians …. unlike the US and its allies, they never make threats! Their dialogue gives warnings and advises but they just act without resorting to threats.

Yes during every Air Crash the experts seem to come out of the wood work. Now let me ask you this. What would an airline pilot know about Missile Fragments from a Russian Air defence system? Bugger all!

I agree! But as an engineer who has actually worked on a war damaged plant that has been attacked from the air with various ordnance, I can assure you that the holes in MH17’s fuselage in the photo’s were from cannon fire! I have seen dozens of the same holes in cable ducting, control panels, sheeting/cladding and tanks, to recognise what they were. I have also seen damage by shrapnel form bombs/rockets and it is very different.

They don't just Bash on the US for the sake of it and at every opportunity, they back their articles up with evidence which is very often left off MSM reports on most occasions and they then leave the rest to the readers opinion. This often shows that MSM reports are selective in what they present to the public. You will find what is reported in the MSM repeated on sites such as GR but the journalists fill in all the missing bits. These independent types are not limited by an editor who allots them so many column inches, some of these reports are several thousand words and contain many graphs, tables, links, quotes and of course photos.

I also believe the pragmatic approach, at least for me, is to read as much as you can about a subject from various sources and form an opinion based simply on the levels of probability. I don’t think these sites ‘bash the US’ they just say it as it is. Take just MH17 ……. the MSM do not cover the evidence you regard as ’sterile’ as it provides balance and without this the whole story is horribly biased!