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O X I !!!

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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:40 am

Pyrolyser:

I agree with most of what you say, it makes a lot of sense but sense is something that seems to be in short supply both in Greece and in Cyprus. Self-interest seems to be the driving force behind change rather than the interests of the nation as a whole! In Cyprus legislation to allow the introduction of Casino’s can be achieved within twelve months …….but legislation for the construction of a crematorium, about 12 years and counting! !!!!

The immediate effect of returning to drachma is it will cause inflation.


I have never seen why this is inevitably so. The Drachma would be a sovereign currency and legal tender only in Greece. If it was locked to the Euro then whatever happens to the Euro happens to the Drachma. The income and external expenditure will still be in Euro’s and other traded currencies. IMO: It makes no difference whether the Drachma was locked at Euro 1 = 1 Drachma or 1 Euro = 10,000 Drachma the internal purchasing power of the new currency will remain unchanged. I will not devalue.

A ratio of 1:1 makes more sense because the day you make the swap, all accounts remain the same ‘number’ only the denominator will change from Euro to Drachma. If you had a 1000 Euro’s in your account then after midnight you would have 1000 Drachma and a civil servant paid say Euro 25k pa will be on Drackma 25K. If you live in Greece it really makes little difference.

Parallel currency and Social division? I am not sure I agree with that view? With strict capital controls, those with Euro’s will buy goods at the same price as anyone else. When the payee gets the Euro’s and puts them into his bank he will be credited with Drachma, not Euros’s! The Euro’s would go into the country’s reserves as foreign currency. Capital control would prevent large sums of Euro’s being ‘exported’ by the Elite into foreign bank accounts.

Nikitas:
…… And as we are often told, going to the drachma does not cancel foreign debt
.

True ….. but it makes it easier to repay because you are not paying government employees and other state costs in a ‘foreign currency’ over which you have no control. And a foreign currency is what the Euro is! If say 75% of your income is going on paying state salaries, pensions, social benefits etc. which, at the moment, is with earned Euro’s, then with the Drachma as the legal tender within Greece, the central bank (independent from the ECB) can create this without either debt or interest.

Obviously a much stricter control over tax collection is required and also over banking which will have to come under the direct management of the Central bank (Nationalisation?). So to me, not a simple step but one that has benefits if rigorously controlled.

The overbearing and economy killing bureaucracy needs dismantling by people with common sense, not those with vested interests in retaining the status quo. Both Greece and Cyprus need a real dose of the reality of not complying with the laws of the country and that goes from the very top of the tree to the street cleaner.

When I refer to ’The Elite’ I mean not just those that are rich, although the Elite normally are, but anyone who has sufficient wealth, power or influence to set themselves above the law of the land or in some cases above international law. This is not just a Greece/Cyprus problem if you follow what is going on in the UK. Lords and MP’s bending the law on just about everything from child abuse and Paedophiles to expense account fraudsters….. but every time they bleat ‘I have done nothing wrong !’ Different tune if you happen to be poor and are caught claiming some benefits it has been decided you are not entitled to …… you can face jail but not so the Elite!

I have never believed that the Euro was a workable idea! A sovereign currency has many more advantages than disadvantages …… provided it is properly applied and controlled( BTW: I do realise that that is a rather Utopian view and wishful thinking ……. but maybe we will see ‘Citizens Tribunals/Committees’ ….. like they had during the French revolution. Ah well, nothing wrong in wishful thinking is there?) :roll: :wink:
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Oceanside50 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:21 pm

miltiades wrote:Bureaucracy stifles a nations entrepreneurial spirit, it restricts economic growth and discourages new ventures.
Not having been to Greece for almost 30 years I can not comment on the levels of bureaucracy existing in Greece, but having read comments by those who are conversant with the way of life in Greece I can see why the nations finances are in such terrible state.

A couple of years ago, encouraged by my other third in Belarus, I carried out a " feasibility " study into setting up a small business in Belarus, a nation that has an average wage of about 2 to 3 hundred US Dollars per month.

My intention was to set up in an industrial unit , a quails eggs bottling factory, there is an abundance of quails eggs in Belarus at extremely low prices. Having looked at prices in the ME where the consumption is high, I thought I could be on to a winner.

Three months later, having provided my entire family's background, my entire financial records, including my ....medical records, going from office to office, being asked to produce more and more information, I came to the conclusion that my venture which would have given employment to dozens was a no go.

Fuck that I said to my other third.

Its no wonder that the nations economy is at the low end.


If there would have been enosis, would Cypriots have tolerated all these restrictions on property and business?
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Nikitas » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:28 pm

Ocean and Milti above point to the fundamental problem in Greece, an innate hostility to private entrprise.

The starting principle, and I believe this reflects both the left and the right, is their belief that profit is ethically wrong, while the state is morally right and by definition acts for the common good. This is manifest even in simple traffic cases, to give an example:

a friend on his motorcycle goes over cat's eyes marking bus lanes, falls and fractures his shoulder. His was one of many such accidents, 13 other motorcyclists lost their lives from the same cause. He sued, the court decided that even though there was negligence, he got no compensation because the state had installed the cat's eyes for the common good,not for profit. Presumably if the road was private they would have awarded him damages. This was judicial rationalisation of a common belief, For fuck's sake!!!!!

I had posed the question re the American business duos starting up in their garages (Jobs-Wsniak, Gates-Ballmer, Hewelett-Packard). It was a rhetorical question since I have done the same in my storage room (size 2.55X2.75) and I had to wait a month for a tax department "autopsy" before I could use it as an office housing one lousy laptop!

Cyprus post 1974 is an interesting case. I have mentioned the Cypriot accomplishment to Greek politicians, and asked them their evaluation in comparison with local natural disaster relief efforts (some earth quake victims are still waiting for relief from the 1980s).

AMAZING to hear these people credit the effectiveness to the..... British who apparently educated the Cypriots and hence imbued them with some magical powers to get things done. Pointing out that the British left in 1960 and since then there have been many changes is no use. You see the point? They believe in magical out-of-body phenomena that empower some nationalities while Greeks are cursed to deal with dark powers constantly undermining them.

When you hear these things from elected politicians then you realise the place really does need an overhaul.
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Oceanside50 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:56 pm

it sounds like socialism. How can socialism work if there's no production?
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby miltiades » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:16 pm

Capitalism creates work, employment, financial stability for a nation, the alternative creates nations such as Greece, I have to mention Belarus again, a nation that has some of the highest literacy rates in the world, number four, highly skilled and educated men and women, yet the " establishment" does its utmost to stifle individual progress, wants the people to remain at the same levels that third world countries are.

It discourages tourism, visas are required by all Europeans, Sterling is NOT acceptable outside the capital Minsk banks, and foreign enterprises are ignored rather than encouraged. My little investment would have created jobs for more than one dozen people, perhaps 2 or 3 dozen, as well as foreign currency badly needed.

Each document requested had to be notarised including bank statements for crying out loud.
I have to admit though that I have grown to love the nation and its people. No cockroaches to be seen anywhere !!!
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Oceanside50 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:33 pm

miltiades wrote:Capitalism creates work, employment, financial stability for a nation, the alternative creates nations such as Greece, I have to mention Belarus again, a nation that has some of the highest literacy rates in the world, number four, highly skilled and educated men and women, yet the " establishment" does its utmost to stifle individual progress, wants the people to remain at the same levels that third world countries are.

It discourages tourism, visas are required by all Europeans, Sterling is NOT acceptable outside the capital Minsk banks, and foreign enterprises are ignored rather than encouraged. My little investment would have created jobs for more than one dozen people, perhaps 2 or 3 dozen, as well as foreign currency badly needed.

Each document requested had to be notarised including bank statements for crying out loud.
I have to admit though that I have grown to love the nation and its people. No cockroaches to be seen anywhere !!!


It's their choice to be socialist but the problem is is that the loans and money have run out, now what?
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Cap » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:47 pm

^^
Agree with Milti.

Remember Aphrodite's Brewing Company 3 years ago? British company.
GiG's will remember, me and her had a good right banter about it.

They were 1 step away from giving up on Cyprus and relocating to Malta because of red tape and bureaucracy.
They were granted licenses (which were in order yonkers in advance!) at the very last minute.
They're still around and selling by the way!

For Gawds sake CY, don't turn investors away!
If their product is shite and inferior, they'll go bankrupt and it will dissolve and fade away anyway.

Just because they're not affiliated to a political party and have no connections and are in direct competition to local breweries who are! Yes KEO and Carlsberg under license, they stood in the way.
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Nikitas » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:27 pm

"Each document requested had to be notarised "

That sounds SO familiar! It shows the mindset toward the applicant: you are a crook, we presupppose you will present false documents/copies, so every document must be notarised.

Their idea of creating employment is having many notaries and their assistants and a whole bunch of people checking for notary stamps. Sad MFs.
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:14 pm

In Cyprus we used to start most businesses unlicensed.
If they got successful then we would go on getting all the licenses rather easily.
The problem today is that it may get successful but still impossible to get the licenses for various reasons, sometimes because of competitors, sometimes because your activities are not allowed in the specific area.

My daughter started her business half licensed. She dreads of the day they will catch her. :(
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Re: O X I !!!

Postby B25 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:01 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
My daughter started her business half licensed. She dreads of the day they will catch her. :(


How can you be half licenced???

Hair dresser or real estate??
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