Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

If you do not believe in the power of nature, there's nothing I can do or want to do to change your mind (it's ... stagnant?). Maybe it's in the nature of Turks to assume to play God - that once man has shown some experience in an avenue, you ride the wave that makes you think you have controlled nature.

I don't know from where you gain your confidence (Turkish genes, perhaps?) but having done a lot of 'tinkering' in my time, I am humble enough to know that nature does it best! And usually first! And genetic engineering by humans just speeds up the process for us to see in our (short) lifetimes.

[erolz66]

If you do not believe in the power of nature, there's nothing I can do or want to do to change your mind (it's ... stagnant?). Maybe it's in the nature of Turks to assume to play God - that once man has shown some experience in an avenue, you ride the wave that makes you think you have controlled nature.

I don't know from where you gain your confidence (Turkish genes, perhaps?) but having done a lot of 'tinkering' in my time, I am humble enough to know that nature does it best! And usually first! And genetic engineering by humans just speeds up the process for us to see in our (short) lifetimes.

Same old same old. No where do I say I do not believe in the power of nature. What I said is that it is nonsense to claim that "Genetic engineering just speeds up the same processes available through breeding and selection" and that you could produce a spider web goat just by breeding and selection. I said this because such claims ARE nonsense. HGT proves that genetic engineering can not only do MORE than what can be done with 'selection and breeding' (VGT) it can and HAS also done what mere breeding and selection can NOT do - namely HGT of a specific gene sequence to transpose a specific ability/trait from one species to another.

Having shown that your claims were nonsense you now invariably resort to racial name calling - same pattern we see from you year after year after year.

[kurupetos]

To 'believe' like erolz, is to believe that evolution has stopped.

Yes it will never stop, but eventually it will explode and it will be replaced by a new one.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Erolz, arrogant as ever, you haven't proved my claim is nonsense. Genetic engineering speeds up breeding and natural selection. How have you proved that wrong? You've merely, eventually, followed up what I've offered on HGT, and haven't been able to gap fill how it applies to this discipline. Irateness doesn't count.

Perhaps you can tell us about which genetic engineering experiments you may have managed to do that are so unique they are incompatible with what nature has managed to do before or can still do in the future - if we (who are not Turks) are omniscient or omnipotent enough to find out about.

The problem with these discussions is that you think there can be ONE google article that sums up the whole field for you - bitesize pseudo-knowledge. Maybe I'm slow, as it's taken me a few decades, but I've finally come to the conclusion that nature GOT THERE FIRST and we can only follow in its shadow!

The molecular biologists that are not (sadly) chasing research grants and instead managing to continue with some blue skies research would agree.

[Get Real!]

If you do not believe in the power of nature, there's nothing I can do or want to do to change your mind...

Yes, I also believe in the power of nature… each time I look in the mirror.

[erolz66]

Erolz, arrogant as ever, you haven't proved my claim is nonsense. Genetic engineering speeds up breeding and natural selection. How have you proved that wrong?

Classic GIG in action - your actual original quote (my emphasis) was

Genetic engineering just speeds up the same processes available through breeding and selection

Of course you NOW try and make out that you were NOT claiming that the ONLY thing genetic engineering could do is what could be done via breeding and selection, just quicker. Of course you NOW try and make out that you were merely claiming that genetic engineering could be used, amongst other things, to achieve the same results that breeding and selection can achieve, just quicker. Even though you subsequently said

whatever can be done by genetic engineering can occur naturally or be carried out via breeding and selection

The FACT is that the transplanting of a spiders gene sequence for making silk into a goat such that it produces such silk proteins in its milk can NOT be achieved by 'breeding and selection'.

Maybe I'm slow, as it's taken me a few decades, but I've finally come to the conclusion that nature GOT THERE FIRST and we can only follow in its shadow!

Did nature get there first in terms of the (random) transplanting of genes horizontaly from one species to another. Yes it did. Did nature get their first in creating a a goat whose milk contains spider silk proteins ? No it DID NOT. What is more it is simply impossible for MAN to achieve this end result merely by breeding and selection. Man could ONLY do this by genetic engineering. These are just evident truths - truths you are now required to continue to try and deny.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Erolz, arrogant as ever, you haven't proved my claim is nonsense. Genetic engineering speeds up breeding and natural selection. How have you proved that wrong?

Classic GIG in action - your actual original quote (my emphasis) was

Genetic engineering just speeds up the same processes available through breeding and selection

Oh sorry, if that's your problem please re-insert the 'just' - my not being a computer, it got left out.

The FACT is that the transplanting of a spiders gene sequence for making silk into a goat such that it produces such silk proteins in its milk can NOT be achieved by 'breeding and selection'.

No - it's NOT a fact! It's your limited knowledge!

Man could ONLY do this by genetic engineering.

Well, there's the rub!

Whereas nature .....

[erolz66]

The FACT is that the transplanting of a spiders gene sequence for making silk into a goat such that it produces such silk proteins in its milk can NOT be achieved by 'breeding and selection'.

No - it's NOT a fact! It's your limited knowledge!

Changing animals by breeding and selection to achieve a given result , by definition, is to seek to exploit the VERTICAL transmission of genes WITHIN a species through generations of that species. To claim that this 'vertical' process within a single species can be used to achieve the HORIZONTAL transmission of genes from an entirely different species is plainly nonsense. Yet this is what you claimed. You can use all your tiered old 'techniques' to try and distract from the fact that you made this claim and the claim is plainly nonsense but you are not fooling me and I doubt you are fooling anyone else except perhaps yourself.

Man could ONLY do this by genetic engineering.

Well, there's the rub!

Whereas nature .....

No the 'rub' is that you claimed man could achieve this without the need for direct genetic manipulation and just by 'breeding and selection' given enough time in order to try and support the plainly incorrect assertion that all genetic engineering could do was what could already be done by breeding and selection.

Come on GiG surprise us all and just admit that you can not in fact produce a spider goat just by breeding and selecting goats and that genetic engineering by man as well as being able to achieve what can be achieved by breeding and selection can also achieve things that can not be achieved by breeding and selection. If you then want to explain that when you said these things you did not MEAN them but actually meant nothing man can do and has done to date with genetic engineering with 'purpose' has not already been shown to happen at random in nature, then by al means go ahead - you will not get any argument from me on such a statement. However if you simply insist on insisting that your statements that you could produce a spider goat just by breeding and selection and that the only thing you can achieve with genetic engineering is what could be achieved by breeding and selection, despite the fact that such claims are patently not true, well then we just have GiG business as usual.

[GreekIslandGirl]

The FACT is that the transplanting of a spiders gene sequence for making silk into a goat such that it produces such silk proteins in its milk can NOT be achieved by 'breeding and selection'.

No - it's NOT a fact! It's your limited knowledge!

Changing animals by breeding and selection to achieve a given result , by definition, is to seek to exploit the VERTICAL transmission of genes WITHIN a species through generations of that species. To claim that this 'vertical' process within a single species can be used to achieve the HORIZONTAL transmission of genes from an entirely different species is plainly nonsense. Yet this is what you claimed. You can use all your tiered old 'techniques' to try and distract from the fact that you made this claim and the claim is plainly nonsense but you are not fooling me and I doubt you are fooling anyone else except perhaps yourself.

Man could ONLY do this by genetic engineering.

Well, there's the rub!

Whereas nature .....

No the 'rub' is that you claimed man could achieve this without the need for direct genetic manipulation and just by 'breeding and selection' given enough time in order to try and support the plainly incorrect assertion that all genetic engineering could do was what could already be done by breeding and selection.

Come on GiG surprise us all and just admit that you can not in fact produce a spider goat just by breeding and selecting goats and that genetic engineering by man as well as being able to achieve what can be achieved by breeding and selection can also achieve things that can not be achieved by breeding and selection. If you then want to explain that when you said these things you did not MEAN them but actually meant nothing man can do and has done to date with genetic engineering with 'purpose' has not already been shown to happen at random in nature, then by al means go ahead - you will not get any argument from me on such a statement. However if you simply insist on insisting that your statements that you could produce a spider goat just by breeding and selection and that the only thing you can achieve with genetic engineering is what could be achieved by breeding and selection, despite the fact that such claims are patently not true, well then we just have GiG business as usual.

Your attempts to throw in what you've now read do not excuse the fact you ignore the salient points. Read through what I've actually posted and NOT the straw men you have set up along the way and you will see, that given enough time, all things are possible (insect genes in mammals for example); but as human beings, we have found ways to speed up these events that can occur naturally (your failure to accept that genetic engineering is just the fast-track process will not be solved by simple googles, I'm afraid) and that's where we have moved on, from slow breeding (in its many forms) and selecting to genetic engineering (and selecting) - but genetic engineering just speeds things up!

[erolz66]

Your attempts to throw in what you've now read do not excuse the fact you ignore the salient points. Read through what I've actually posted and NOT the straw men you have set up along the way and you will see, that given enough time, all things are possible (insect genes in mammals for example); but as human beings, we have found ways to speed up these events that can occur naturally (your failure to accept that genetic engineering is just the fast-track process will not be solved by simple googles, I'm afraid) and that's where we have moved on, from slow breeding (in its many forms) and selecting to genetic engineering (and selecting) - but genetic engineering just speeds things up!

What you actually posted verbatim

whatever can be done by genetic engineering can occur naturally or be carried out via breeding and selection

You can try and deny now that you said this and change what your are NOW saying to avoid having to admit that the last part of the above claims is factually incorrect. There are things like the horizontal transfer of genes across species that can NOT be 'carried out via breeding and selection'.