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Issues of equality

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:38 pm

Whatever. I lived in the USA for some years, and I took courses about it. I already pointed you to links that show that bigger states elect more electors, and more congressmen. I already told you that in the US the movement and settlement of people is free and no state has laws to keep any kind of "community ratio" within it.

Anyways, I hope you will stick to your position that you accept the USA constitution to be applied in Cyprus. If this is truly the case then we agreed already



The US is not the federation of x number of ethnic communities states but Cyprus should be two major ethnic communities federative state because of the security, political, economical and cultural concerns of TC community.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:45 pm

The US is not the federation of x number of ethnic communities states but Cyprus should be two major ethnic communities federative state because of the security, political, economical and cultural concerns of TC community.


You keep using your concerns as an excuse. You have concerns we have concerns too. Should we also start demanding things that will limit your human rights because of our "concerns"?

If you had goodwill then you would try to see how these concerns of yours can be handled without the violation of our human rights and democratic principles.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:50 pm

Erol wrote: the GC community will have those rights in the ratio 4:1 vs the TC COMMUNITY - this is what you propose.


Like I said the discussion on this issue has gone too far.Anyway food for thought for the debators:
a)On how many issues will the voting be that of one community Vs the other? One in a thousand? One every 4-5 years?
b)On the matter of Euro Elections 500 TCs were registered, and finally less than 200 voted.Hasan an independent TC canditate got more than 600 votes, whereas all GC independent canditates got less.Is the GC community -being the numerically larger- politically and socially mature to defend the rights of other, numerically smaller communities today? Is the TC community equally mature?
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Postby erolz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Piratis wrote:
I will not if why apply what you are asking for. My vote will worth 4.5 times less than your vote. This is a racist discrimination on one of the most basic democratic principles.


No as an indivdual your vote will be worth exactly the same as mine. As communites your communites vote will be worth exactly the same as my communites will be.

As a community GC have exactly the same rights as TC. Why should GC as a COMMUNITY have 4.5 times more rights as TC as a COMMUNITY. It is not me that wants 'extra'!


If you insist that the TC community is nothing but a minority and not and equal partnet community to the GC one then what you are saying is as communites the GC has the right to 'override' the TC community on any issue they disagree about. That is a right to dominate what you laughingly refer to as a 'federation'.

The community itself will have equal rights. You language will be as official as our language, your religion will be as official as the GC religion, and your culture will be equal to the GC culture. These are the differences between communities and this is what means community equality. What other differences do you have as a community? Where do you see anything 'extra' for the GC community? Greek Cypriots are 78%. Do you see GCs asking for 90% or 100%. That would be extra, but we are not asking for anything 'extra'.


If the communites will have equal rights as communites in any proposed federation then we disagree on nothing. Any decisions of the state will require the consent of each of the equal communites that make it up. No problem. Why then isnist that the TC community has to be a political minority? However the idea that the above are the only issues where there might be differences between the communites is absurd and simplistic. Lets just consider one possible difference (and there are numerous issues that could be 'muted'). Let's say that the new federated RoC decides to restrict investment from non EU countries. Further let's suppose this affects GC businesses to no degree as 99% of their external investment comes from EU countries anyway but that it affects TC businesses to a major degree as a much higher degree of their external investment comes from non EU countires. In your 'idea' of a federation the GC could simply enforce this legislation, as they represent the 'bigger' of the two federal elements (communites) and nothing would protect TC intrests from the negative impact. In my idea of a federation the legislation would require the consent of the two communites. If the TC community felt that the legislation was detrimental to their interests then they could refuse to give consent unless their concerns at the effects were taken into consideration and the legislation modified or some for of 'compensation' agreed for the negative affects on TC businesses.

You want the TC community to be a minority with some pre defined , unchangable 'special protections'. This system can not simple work if you are genuine in not wanting the GC community to be able to dominate the TC community within Cyprus. It is also a contradiction to the right of Cypriot self determination (as any 'unchangeable' arcticles in a consitituion would be). The only sensible option is too accept the TC community as an equal partner to the GC one in a federated state. This however you seem unable to accept.

Piratis wrote:
Again you twist and avoid. Can groups of people have rights as GROUPS of people? Yes or No. The answer is yes. If those GROUPS can have rights as GROUPS then they also have responsibilites as GROUPS. Simple really.


You are the one who avoids. Why don't you give the UN references so we will all see what they are about? Groups of people have for their special needs. (e.g. the group of people called "blind" have special rights to help them with their disability) But they do not have the right to limit democracy or the human rights of others. Give the links from the UN that you said you have, so we will see what kind of rights groups have, why you avoid it?


You said only individuals can have responsbilites. You said that 'groups of people' do not have responsibilites. I have pointed out that you take this line because it is convienent for you to do so to avoid the issue I made (about if your community has greater degree of rights through greater numbers then they also have a greater degree of responsibilites). It is clear in the human rights documents that 'groups' of people (however they are defined) can and do have rights as groups that are different and additional to their rights as indivduals. If then groups can have rights that apply to groups they also have reposnisbilites that apply to groups and your assertion that groups can not have responsibilites (only individuals can) is plainly worng. Ther reason why you indulge in all this wrangling is because you do not wnat to face the ideas in my suggestion. The suggestion that if there is 'only' a Cypriot people and that if one community comprises of 4/5 of that people then they also carry 4/5 of the responsibilty of that people. That would be the natural consequence of your position. I point this out because the reality is you are happy to grant the TC community equality when it comes to 'responsibility' or 'blame' (both communites are equaly responsible or equally to blame for the state of Cyprus today as far as Cypriots are to blame or responsible) but releuctant to grant the same equality when it comes to the exerisising of the rights of those communites. What you actualy need to do is study this 'contradiction' within yourself. What you prefer to do is avoid it.



Anyways, I hope you will stick to your position that you accept the USA constitution to be applied in Cyprus. If this is truly the case then we agreed already :)


Federal law in the US does not require the consent of the majority of the indivdual states? That all it requires is the consent of enough big states to represnt a majority of the population? That each state does not have an equal vote but in fact has a vote proportional to its population? If that is so then it is not a federation or a model I use as a guide.
In Cyprus there would be two states. To get a majority would require the consent of both. Is this what you agree should be the case in Cyprus? If so then we do agree.
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Postby insan » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:35 pm

You keep using your concerns as an excuse. You have concerns we have concerns too. Should we also start demanding things that will limit your human rights because of our "concerns"?



I said majority of TCs concerns... A small minority of TC community including me have no concerns either being a minority or not. I stated this for a several times before. If I could find a job that suits my needs I can even rent a house in South and live there as a human being; no matter what political status I would get.

If you had goodwill then you would try to see how these concerns of yours can be handled without the violation of our human rights and democratic principles.



It's mainly a part of GCs communitiy fault. Your the ones who'll make your TC brothers feel comfortable with what you offer them. Try harder and be more practical instead of promises... Perhaps you may change them...
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Postby insan » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:23 pm

Like I said the discussion on this issue has gone too far.Anyway food for thought for the debators:
a)On how many issues will the voting be that of one community Vs the other? One in a thousand? One every 4-5 years?



a)You know the answer my brother... how many bills have been inroduced as one community vs the other one; that much of issues will be one community vs the other one.


b)On the matter of Euro Elections 500 TCs were registered, and finally less than 200 voted.Hasan an independent TC canditate got more than 600 votes, whereas all GC independent canditates got less.Is the GC community -being the numerically larger- politically and socially mature to defend the rights of other, numerically smaller communities today? Is the TC community equally mature?



There's a phrase in Turkish, brother... "Bir çiçek açmakla bahar gelmez."(A bloomed flower doesn't mean that the Spring came. And you know how a small minority of extremists had taken the majority of two communities under their control and how many Cypriots voluntarily gave support to them. Political and social maturity of the members of two communities depends on their "money fathers", big capital owners. In capitalist countries, the big capital owners govern the sate behind the scenes...

[/quote]
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Postby MicAtCyp » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:09 pm

And I thought Spring was Ilkbahar :)
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Postby insan » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:17 am

And I thought Spring was Ilkbahar



That's right. Spring means Ilkbahar, but colloqialy bahar also means ilkbahar.


And in that phrase it also has a metaphoric meaning: Hapiness, freshness, reneval, hope etc.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:55 pm

By the way Insan gardash we have exactly the same expression in Greek.
"Ena louloudi den fernei tin Anoixi." "A (single) flower does not bring Spring"
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:37 pm

Insan wrote: Haven't the politicians of RoC ever asked for the land registry records to Denktash? If no... I can assure you that you have the worlds smartest politicians.


They have but Denktash refused.How else could he support his claim that 90% of Famagusta belongs to Evkaf?
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