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Issues of equality

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Issues of equality

Postby erolz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:10 am

This is a seperate thread 'split out' from here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=4070#4070

erol wrote:Piratis on this issue of the 'equality' of the two communites do see any problem with saying both GC and TC communites are equally to blame for the state of Cyprus today - or do you think the GC are 4 times more to blame because there are four times more of them?


Piratis wrote:Committing crimes is not a right, it is something illegal. Who has the most blame is who brakes the law most. In the case of the events of 74 the blame goes mostly to GC traitors, the Greek Junta and Turkey. For the 30 years occupation the blame goes to Turkey and the TC supporters of occupation, because they are the only ones who brake the law now.


Who said anything about rights? Getting your 'denials' in first?

It is interesting that you think only those have committed illegal acts can be blamed for the state Cyprus is in. Is it not possible that either a person or a communites views, whilst not illegal, have contributed to the state Cyprus is in today. Has not nationalism towards countries other than Cyprus contributed to the sitituation today? Has not 'stubborness' contributed to the sitituation we have today? These things are not illegal yet clearly they have had a part in getting Cyprus to where it is today.

It is also interesting, but less so because your response is more obvious, that you seem to think blame for the state Cyprus is in today can only be applied to individuals and not to communites. This is more predicable as it avoids the issue I was trying to get you to consider but that obviously you do not wish to confront.

It is most predicable that your assment of who has the most blame starts with events in 74. Obviously nothing that the two _communites_ did as communites can be deemed to have impact on the situation Cyprus in today. You will no doubt 'move back' on this and accpet that actions and attitudes of indivduals and the communites before 74 played their part but it is telling that your 'first response' re blame starts in 74.

It is also predicable that you see a situation today where there is only one victim (the GC community) and one perpetrator (Turkey aided and abbeted by the TC community). Well I could argue that your refusal to accept the equality that was legaly granted to TC community in 1960 is still being denied by you TODAY. Yers you have repeatedly stated that you would return to the 1960 consitituion as an agreement - yet none of the GC community leaders have ever been prepared to accpet this. In 72 a deal was offered by TC side that was 'less' than that granted to TC under the 1960 consitution - and was refused by GC adminsitration.

However all of the above is just a distraction to the actual issue / concpet / idea that I was trying to get you to consider and that you do not wish to consider. So I will try once again to try and get you to consider an idea or perspective outside your own current fixed notions.

Presumably you agree that with rights come responsibilites? You argue that GC and TC communites will have the same rights but that GC will have them to a greater degree - as they are greater in number. That is we all as Cypriots get to decide Cyprus' future and GC as a community have that right in proportions of 4:1 vs the TC community based on numerical number making up these communites. Do you then also accept that the GC community has the same responsibilites as the TC but has them to a greater degree - namely 4 times as much responsibility? Or will you again simple refuse to confront this question by claiming that communites have no reponsibilites - just indivduals, even though there are specific rights of communites (groups of people)? Or is the reality that as communites each community has equal responsibilities as a community?

To me what you propose re the communites that make up Cyprus is analagous to two indivduals who have conflicting interests, with one arguning that yes they have the same rights but that they are twice the size/weight of the other - and thus they have more right as a 'bigger' individual than the smaller person. Clearly this is nonsense as when it comes to the rights of indivduals then each indivdual is equal - the indivdual is the 'unit of democracy' and any attempt to give one unit more wiegth to their rights based on their physical size is ridiculous. So to me is the idea that in a 'union' or 'partnership' or 'federation' of two communites one should have more rights than the other based on the physical size of the community is the same nonsense.

Now I know you are going to 'scream' at me - 'what about the marionites, armenians and latins'. Well I will tell you this. If any or all of these groups had asked for equal status of their communites, if they had a clear record of their desires being fundamentaly opposed to those of other communites, if the original consitituion of Cyprus had accpeted their status as 'partner communites' (and not minorites) in the founding of the Cypriot nation - then yes I would argue for one community one vote in any federation.

The issue of size of these groups is also a valid issue. It is valid in determining their status as either a partner community or as a minority. However once they are accepted (or not) as a partner community and not a minority then their rights as a community are to me as 'individisible' and 'equal' as one individuals rights vs another. Argue with me if you like that TC numbers in Cyprus do not entitle them to 'community' status if you like - argue that they are no different as a group to marionites etc if you like. But do not tell me that there can be a (fair) federation if that is to be the deemed status of TC as a group in Cyprus. As to 'where' a group gains significant numbers to be consider more than just a minority then my personal view is that it is actualy more than just numbers (things like how divergent that groups desire where vs anothers also plays a part for example) - then I would say that TC 18% is right on the border line of that determination. If we were 35% or greater I do not think there would be any doubt or argument as to our status as a 'partner community' rather than minority. If we were 10% or less then I do not think there would be much doubt either. At 18% we are just about numericaly sufficent to claim, want and need that staus. The reality is that we have claimed that status for as long as their has been the possibsility of an independent state of Cyprus. We were granted it leagly in 1960. We will not give it up now. Denial of it now by yourself represents an ongoing 'suffering' of the TC community at the hands of the GC community that is as real as the losses of GC as a result of the events of 74 and just as contemporary and ongoing. To me you either have to accpet TC have such a status or not. However if you do not accpet thay have such a status then to me it is meaningless to talk about a 'federation'. In a federation something needs to be 'federated' - and that has to be communites. If there is no TC community (but rather just a TC minority) in Cyprus there can be no federation. If there is to be a federation then the 'unit of democracy' within that federation has to be the communites and any idea that one unit has greater 'weight' than another unit in it is as absurd as the idea of one individual having 'more degree' of rights as an indivdual because they are bigger or heavier (or wealthier or cleaverer etc etc).
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:48 am

This is more predicable as it avoids the issue I was trying to get you to consider but that obviously you do not wish to confront.


I avoid no issue. Unlike you that you abandon discussions that you obviously run out of arguments, and then you start a new thread with a huge post hopping that I will get bored to reply to.

Piratis on this issue of the 'equality' of the two communites do see any problem with saying both GC and TC communites are equally to blame for the state of Cyprus today - or do you think the GC are 4 times more to blame because there are four times more of them?



Your initial argument is fault, and everything goes from there. Because the Alies in World War II had 10s of times more population from the Axis, does that mean that the Alies were to blame 10s of times more for the war. The opposite is actually true. Blame is not measured by population, otherwise we would have to blame China for everything.


Is it not possible that either a person or a communites views, whilst not illegal, have contributed to the state Cyprus is in today. Has not nationalism towards countries other than Cyprus contributed to the sitituation today? Has not 'stubborness' contributed to the sitituation we have today? These things are not illegal yet clearly they have had a part in getting Cyprus to where it is today.


Yes, they do, but they come nowhere near the blame that illegal acts have. While stubbornness and nationalism are wrong and can worsen the climate; the dead, refugees, missing, rapes etc, happened from illegal acts. You can not equate illegal acts with wrong legal decisions.

It is also interesting, but less so because your response is more obvious, that you seem to think blame for the state Cyprus is in today can only be applied to individuals and not to communites.


Communities are made from individuals. Why should I be responsible if another member of what is supposed my community commits a crime? If it was like that it would justify to punish a whole community for the acts of one of its members, but it is not. We are all responsible for the acts of the people we elect in the government of our country.

It is also predicable that you see a situation today where there is only one victim (the GC community) and one perpetrator (Turkey aided and abbeted by the TC community). Well I could argue that your refusal to accept the equality that was legaly granted to TC community in 1960 is still being denied by you TODAY.


Turkey is the only one who acts in an illegal way today.
The other part I answered already:

Yes, in the 1960 agreements we accepted that Turkish Cypriots will get a lot more than what minorities usually get. For example 30% of government jobs and 40% of the police force should be TCs. Why we accepted these things? No, it is not because studies have shown that TCs are the best government employees. It is because as usual, we are the weak and we don't have much choice in anything. This doesn't change the very simple and obvious fact, that Turkish Cypriots are a minority because they are 18% of the population.

In any case we signed those things and we can't change them. In 63 Makarios proposed some changes, that were rejected, so the agreements remain the same.

The problem with your approach is that you take the parts of those agreements that you like and you forget about the rest. Agreements don't work that way. Agreements go as a package. If you want to implement the 1960 agreements then I have no problem.

Unfortunately in your mind every next agreement should be better for you and worst for us. You came to the point to demand things that conflict with the most basic principles of Democracy.


------------

You argue that GC and TC communites will have the same rights but that GC will have them to a greater degree - as they are greater in number.


No, each Cypriot has exactly the same rights and responsibilities like the rest Cypriots. Nobody has any more or any less rights, all Cypriots have rights at the exact same degree.

That is we all as Cypriots get to decide Cyprus' future and GC as a community have that right in proportions of 4:1 vs the TC community based on numerical number making up these communites. Do you then also accept that the GC community has the same responsibilites as the TC but has them to a greater degree - namely 4 times as much responsibility?


Each one of us has the same rights and responsibilities. Each one Cypriot uses his 1 vote to decide Cyprus future. Unfortunately in Cyprus they didn't let Cypriots to decide the future of their country in a democratic way, but we had an invasion of a foreign power that currently illegally occupies part of our country.

Or is the reality that as communites each community has equal responsibilities as a community?


No, people have responsibilities. Communities are just a group of people. Like blonds are a group of people, and people that belong to a specific party or have certain ideology are a group of people. Under the law we are equal regardless to which groups we belong. Otherwise there is a discrimination.

Now I know you are going to 'scream' at me - 'what about the marionites, armenians and latins'. Well I will tell you this. If any or all of these groups had asked for equal status of their communites, if they had a clear record of their desires being fundamentaly opposed to those of other communites, if the original consitituion of Cyprus had accpeted their status as 'partner communites' (and not minorites) in the founding of the Cypriot nation - then yes I would argue for one community one vote in any federation.

The issue of size of these groups is also a valid issue. ...



Yeah, yeah. I know. Nobody else qualifies for the super power that you demand. No other minority in the world has such thing, no other community in Cyprus. By coincidence, the only ones who qualify for this is Turkish Cypriots. Very interesting coincidence, don't you think?
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Postby erolz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:58 am

Piratis wrote:
You argue that GC and TC communites will have the same rights but that GC will have them to a greater degree - as they are greater in number.


No, each Cypriot has exactly the same rights and responsibilities like the rest Cypriots. Nobody has any more or any less rights, all Cypriots have rights at the exact same degree.


You are so predicable. I talk of the rights of communites and you talk of the rights of indivduals. Each indidvdual has the same rights. Each community has the same rights but the GC community will have those rights in the ratio 4:1 vs the TC COMMUNITY - this is what you propose.

Piratis wrote:
Or is the reality that as communites each community has equal responsibilities as a community?


No, people have responsibilities. Communities are just a group of people. Like blonds are a group of people, and people that belong to a specific party or have certain ideology are a group of people. Under the law we are equal regardless to which groups we belong. Otherwise there is a discrimination.


So predicable. So communites or groups of people can have rights AS GROUPS - as is clearly defined in the UN charters, which talk of those rights in two sections the rights of groups and the rights of indivduals, yet only individual can have resonsibilites. How convieient for you - and how weak a response.

Piratis wrote:
Yeah, yeah. I know. Nobody else qualifies for the super power that you demand. No other minority in the world has such thing, no other community in Cyprus. By coincidence, the only ones who qualify for this is Turkish Cypriots. Very interesting coincidence, don't you think?


There are examples of countries that consist of similar equal components - but you simply dismiss these. There is not a federal arrangment in the world where each unit of the federation is not equal to each other within the federation. There is another community in Cyprus that will have exactly the same rights as the TC community - it's the GC community.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:13 pm

You are so predicable. I talk of the rights of communites and you talk of the rights of indivduals. Each indidvdual has the same rights. Each community has the same rights but the GC community will have those rights in the ratio 4:1 vs the TC COMMUNITY - this is what you propose.

I have exactly the same rights and exactly the same responsibilities like you. Why you should have more rights than me? Why should your vote be 4.5 times more than mine? Because you declare that you are Turkish?

So predicable. So communites or groups of people can have rights AS GROUPS - as is clearly defined in the UN charters, which talk of those rights in two sections the rights of groups and the rights of indivduals, yet only individual can have resonsibilites. How convieient for you - and how weak a response.


Ok, lets see some links from the UN charters to see where they say that numerically smaller communities should have 50% power in a country. Show me. You are just vague statements and nothing more.

There are examples of countries that consist of similar equal components - but you simply dismiss these. There is not a federal arrangment in the world where each unit of the federation is not equal to each other within the federation. There is another community in Cyprus that will have exactly the same rights as the TC community - it's the GC community.


What "federal" are you talking about?? The "Turkish Federated State of Cyprus " that you declared after the Turkish invasion was never recognized. In Cyprus there is only one state, The Republic of Cyprus and nothing else. It seems to me you got ahead of yourself and you are already implementing "step number 3 for parition". You didn't get "step number 2" yet, and as long as it is so obvious that you want such a solution to be used as a stepping stone for you to achieve parition, this step will never come.

In Cyprus there are no federal sates. In Cyprus there are different communities. So show me examples of communities that have the power you demand.

IF we agree on a solution based on federation then this agreement will go as a package. If you demand 50% power then obviously such agreement will never be achieved, and therefore there will never be such things as "federal states" in Cyprus.

I am looking at the map now and the only country I can see that has the word "federation" in its name is the Russian Federation. Do you really think each region in Russia has equal power irrespective of the population? I don't think so.
Even in the US, small states do not have equal number of power. A single state can not block a decision in the US. The president is elected by all Americans, and big states elect much more electors than small ones ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G04/Elect ... tion.phtml ). Also big states elect much more congressmen. The only place that states are equal is the senate, but even there a single state can not block a decision. In addition to that, nobody can prohinit the movement from state to state. So if a North Dakota resident wants to move in South Dakota he can do so freely. And after he moves he will now vote in South Dakota not in north.

In the US, people with caltural, religious or language differences do not get their own state by the way. And states are not ethnically cleanced, but anybody from any religion or culture group can be a resident (and voter) of any state. So the power is to states that are open for all citizens of the country, and not to communities.

Anyways, lets say we agree on a federal system. Do you accept the system they have in the US? We already know that you don't, because you want WAY more power than any of the states have there. (notice: I don't even ask you to accept something similar to the Russian federation, although thats is another live example a federal country).
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Postby insan » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:44 pm

am looking at the map now and the only country I can see that has the word "federation" in its name is the Russian Federation. Do you really think each region in Russia has equal power irrespective of the population? I don't think so.
Even in the US, small states do not have equal number of power. A single state can not block a decision in the US. The president is elected by all Americans, and big states elect much more electors than small ones ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G04/Elect ... tion.phtml ). Also big states elect much more congressmen. The only place that states are equal is the senate, but even there a single state can not block a decision



In US, the Nastional House and the Senate cannot pass the bills that are against the interests of one or more than one states. Moreover any of the component states cannot pass the bills that are against the interests of any of the component states. There are several disputes between the states that the central government of US can't impose its power on them. Neither of the states have an obligation to approve and implement the bills that passed by the Central US government. Every component state has its own Legislature, Executive and judicial branches. Neither the Central Government, nor any of the component states can impose its power on each other. If there's something violates the US constitution, all US residents, states and the groups of Central Government have the right to apply to the US Supreme Court.


Ps: See the neverending "water usage" dispute between Alabama and the neighbour states.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:33 pm

The moving out from the existing situation to a United Cyprus involves many issues one of which is the Governing structure of the new state. However concentrating only on that issue in my opinion makes everybody look like a puppet of the politicians. 99% of us will not ever be politicians, and 85% of us will never be government employees....I think we all here got stuck to political issues which at the end of the day will have little effect on our everyday life and well being after a solution.

There are much more important issues. The matter of properties, the matter of settlers the matter of security and human rights, financial issues, matters of bringing the 2 communities together towards a Cypriot identity.
Do you know that the simple fact that most disposed owners don't have any tittle deeds in hand is enough to cause chaos after ANY solution?The fact that the majority of the records of the Lands and surveys in the occupied areas have been lost , or been deliberately destroyed by the occupying regime? Who can tell whose property is that and whose is not? You got stuck to issues that in my opinion inside the EU are already solved.Lets move on.

Heres what the EU says about minorities or if you like about "numerically less groups":

The strength of democracy in a country is not measured by the absolute dominance of the majority, but rather, the extent the majority can defend the rights of the minority. Having the majority of seats does not grant absolutism to anyone.


If you want to continue this discussion fine. Here is some food for thought though.We all agree that the Maronites the Armenians and the Latins are small minorities here. We all also know that the Armenians and Latins are rich and don't need or seek any support from the state. What about the Maronites though whose standard of living and capabilities were almost the same as those of the GCs/TCs? They started complaining of their diificulties and their "no voice". The result? Half of them are now Government employees!!!! Yes beleive it or not the Maronites have preferential treatment in all Government, in all good job positions and to ALL public tenders and contracts. So think about it while you discuss issues of equality/fair treatment. For me the issues of equality are crystal clear and are related to fair treatment away from absolutism.

Piratis have there been any threads in the past for the issues of properties, settlers etc in this forum? If yes please post something there so they come up on top.Otherwise I will start new threads.Thanks in advance.
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Postby erolz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:44 pm

Piratis wrote: I have exactly the same rights and exactly the same responsibilities like you. Why you should have more rights than me? Why should your vote be 4.5 times more than mine? Because you declare that you are Turkish?


As an individual you have exactly the same rights as me as n indivdual. As a community GC have exactly the same rights as TC. Why should GC as a COMMUNITY have 4.5 times more rights as TC as a COMMUNITY. It is not me that wants 'extra'!

Ok, lets see some links from the UN charters to see where they say that numerically smaller communities should have 50% power in a country. Show me. You are just vague statements and nothing more.


Again you twist and avoid. Can groups of people have rights as GROUPS of people? Yes or No. The answer is yes. If those GROUPS can have rights as GROUPS then they also have responsibilites as GROUPS. Simple really.

Anyways, lets say we agree on a federal system. Do you accept the system they have in the US? We already know that you don't, because you want WAY more power than any of the states have there. (notice: I don't even ask you to accept something similar to the Russian federation, although thats is another live example a federal country).


I would accept the US system because in such a system each element of the federation is equal. The US system does not say the larger states within the federation have more rights and powers within that federation. They have equal powers and rights - because that is what a federation is. You are the one arguing for a federation of two entities where one of those entities has 4.5 times more power and rights as an entity than the other. That is not a federation, except perhaps in your mind.
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Postby insan » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:17 pm

The matter of properties, the matter of settlers the matter of security and human rights, financial issues, matters of bringing the 2 communities together towards a Cypriot identity.



Why don't you create threads regarding those issues re brother?


Do you know that the simple fact that most disposed owners don't have any tittle deeds in hand is enough to cause chaos after ANY solution?The fact that the majority of the records of the Lands and surveys in the occupied areas have been lost , or been deliberately destroyed by the occupying regime? Who can tell whose property is that and whose is not?



Haven't the politicians of RoC ever asked for the land registry records to Denktash? If no... I can assure you that you have the worlds smartest politicians.



Heres what the EU says about minorities or if you like about "numerically less groups":

wrote:
The strength of democracy in a country is not measured by the absolute dominance of the majority, but rather, the extent the majority can defend the rights of the minority. Having the majority of seats does not grant absolutism to anyone.



But the fact is that TC community is numerically less than GC community but also one of the constituent community of Cyprus. What is the status of TC community in EU? The above quotation refers to Maronites, Latins and Armenians.


If you want to continue this discussion fine. Here is some food for thought though.We all agree that the Maronites the Armenians and the Latins are small minorities here. We all also know that the Armenians and Latins are rich and don't need or seek any support from the state. What about the Maronites though whose standard of living and capabilities were almost the same as those of the GCs/TCs? They started complaining of their diificulties and their "no voice". The result? Half of them are now Government employees!!!! Yes beleive it or not the Maronites have preferential treatment in all Government, in all good job positions and to ALL public tenders and contracts. So think about it while you discuss issues of equality/fair treatment. For me the issues of equality are crystal clear and are related to fair treatment away from absolutism.




Are the members of those minorities of Cyprus had/have the same relations/conflicts with GC and TC community had/have? Guess why did the mebers of those minorities chose to line up with GC community instead of TC community? In my opinion it's not logical to compare a TC with any of the members of those minorities regarding the issue you refered above. There are so many historical and on going facts which make majority of TC community not to trust GC community because of their extremists and likewise the majority of GC community also have the same concerns because of the same reasons.

Piratis have there been any threads in the past for the issues of properties, settlers etc in this forum? If yes please post something there so they come up on top.Otherwise I will start new threads.Thanks in advance.


A new assistant manager? ;)
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:59 pm

As an individual you have exactly the same rights as me as n indivdual.


I will not if why apply what you are asking for. My vote will worth 4.5 times less than your vote. This is a racist discrimination on one of the most basic democratic principles.

As a community GC have exactly the same rights as TC. Why should GC as a COMMUNITY have 4.5 times more rights as TC as a COMMUNITY. It is not me that wants 'extra'!


The community itself will have equal rights. You language will be as official as our language, your religion will be as official as the GC religion, and your culture will be equal to the GC culture. These are the differences between communities and this is what means community equality. What other differences do you have as a community? Where do you see anything 'extra' for the GC community? Greek Cypriots are 78%. Do you see GCs asking for 90% or 100%. That would be extra, but we are not asking for anything 'extra'.


Again you twist and avoid. Can groups of people have rights as GROUPS of people? Yes or No. The answer is yes. If those GROUPS can have rights as GROUPS then they also have responsibilites as GROUPS. Simple really.


You are the one who avoids. Why don't you give the UN references so we will all see what they are about? Groups of people have for their special needs. (e.g. the group of people called "blind" have special rights to help them with their disability) But they do not have the right to limit democracy or the human rights of others. Give the links from the UN that you said you have, so we will see what kind of rights groups have, why you avoid it?


I would accept the US system because in such a system each element of the federation is equal. The US system does not say the larger states within the federation have more rights and powers within that federation. They have equal powers and rights - because that is what a federation is. You are the one arguing for a federation of two entities where one of those entities has 4.5 times more power and rights as an entity than the other. That is not a federation, except perhaps in your mind.



Whatever. I lived in the USA for some years, and I took courses about it. I already pointed you to links that show that bigger states elect more electors, and more congressmen. I already told you that in the US the movement and settlement of people is free and no state has laws to keep any kind of "community ratio" within it.

Anyways, I hope you will stick to your position that you accept the USA constitution to be applied in Cyprus. If this is truly the case then we agreed already :)
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:06 pm

The moving out from the existing situation to a United Cyprus involves many issues one of which is the Governing structure of the new state. However concentrating only on that issue in my opinion makes everybody look like a puppet of the politicians. 99% of us will not ever be politicians, and 85% of us will never be government employees


The issue of democracy is not that of politicians and government employees. I don't know about you, but for me democracy along with Independence are the top issues.

Piratis have there been any threads in the past for the issues of properties, settlers etc in this forum? If yes please post something there so they come up on top.Otherwise I will start new threads.Thanks in advance.


I believe all those topics were discussed but maybe not in their own thread.
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