The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Feel free to talk about anything that you want.

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Paphitis:
Don't take this personally Robin Hood. But I refer to the same BoE papers and at no time did they ever admit they can create money from thin air. I already gave you a complete rundown about the BoE which everyone is misinterpreting!

It seems everyone else but you is out of step, as they say? Maybe you should consider the fact that you could have misunderstood the explanations you have been given?

And they will never say such a thing, because quite frankly they can't do it.

(Sorry, but I mean lenders can't do it. The BoE actually can)


The ‘link’ to the BoE 2014 Bulletin, is in the article ...... maybe you should read it again?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/18/truth-money-iou-bank-of-england-austerity

Watch the Official BoE video in this article at 1:0 thro’ 1:17. (Just 17 secs .... Ryland Thomas says it all and HE with others wrote the BoE bulletin and it could not be clearer!)

http://www.zengardner.com/banksters-admit-money-thin-air/?print=print
Have all these people really got it all wrong?

“[W]hen a bank makes a loan, it simply adds to the borrower’s deposit account in the bank by the amount of the loan. The money is not taken from anyone else’s deposit; it was not previously paid in to the bank by anyone. It’s new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower.“

– Robert B. Anderson, Secretary of the Treasury under Eisenhower, in an interview reported in the August 31, 1959 issue of U.S. News and World Report


“Do private banks issue money today? Yes. Although banks no longer have the right to issue bank notes, they can create money in the form of bank deposits when they lend money to businesses, or buy securities. . . . The important thing to remember is that when banks lend money they don’t necessarily take it from anyone else to lend. Thus they ‘create’ it.”

Congressman Wright Patman, Money Facts (House Committee on Banking and Currency, 1964)


The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented.”

– Sir Josiah Stamp, president of the Bank of England and the second richest man in Britain in the 1920s.


“Banks create money. That is what they are for. . . . The manufacturing process to make money consists of making an entry in a book. That is all. . . . Each and every time a Bank makes a loan . . . new Bank credit is created — brand new money.”

– Graham Towers, Governor of the Bank of Canada from 1935 to 1955.


I fail to see how you cannot understand that the commercial banks need NOTHING of substance to create new money ....... you keep including ‘collateral’ as a condition but these people (Above) all say the same thing. It did not exist before the bank created it. You keep trying to include the collateral, but it is a condition the banks put on giving you a loan ........ their insurance for default, ........... it has absolutely nothing to do with money creation process.

I’m sorry but you are wrong .... you have missed the very basics of the creation! Come to terms with the fact that is so ..... work out for yourself HOW they do it ...... and the rest will fall into place. :wink:
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:45 pm

Iceland Prime Minister has not Resigned …… over The Panama Papers release. All was above board, legal and all taxes paid!

I still believe he was targeted because of his proposed financial reforms to the Icelandic banking and monetary system. The reforms he has carried out since 2008, have given Iceland the best recovery from the crisis of any Nation and his banking reforms are a threat to the Banksters!

What a difference the response is to Cameron’s ….. shouldn’t he do the honorable thing ….. and resign? He has openly said he will not support the Port Talbot Steel Works as he did the bankers (Daily Mail)……. because they are not as important! Nice fella …. Eh? I think he will now need body guards and a military escort if he tries to cross the border into Whales.

Iceland Prime Minister has not Resigned, Press Release to International Media

The Prime Minister’s office in Iceland has just issued a press statement in English to the international press saying that the Prime Minister has not resigned, merely stepped aside for an unspecified amount of time and will continue to serve as the Chairman of the Progressive Party.

The Prime Minister’s action reflects his wish to not stand in the way of the important issues that still remain on the Government’s agenda being finished in this term, issues like housing reform and the reform of the financial system that he will continue to fight for in the interest of the Icelandic people.


In recent weeks, the Prime Minister and his wife have provided detailed answers to questions about the assets of the PM’s wife. They have never sought to hide these assets from Icelandic tax authorities and these holdings in Wintris have been reported as an asset on the Prime Minister’s wife’s income tax returns since 2008 and taxes have been paid accordingly in Iceland. No Parliamentary rules on disclosure have been broken. Even The Guardian and other media covering the story have confirmed that they have not seen any evidence to suggest that the Prime Minister, his wife, or Wintris engaged in any actions involving tax avoidance, tax evasion, or any dishonest financial gain.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/iceland-prime-minister-has-not-resigned-press-release-to-international-media/5519083

(The original source of this article is ‘Iceland Monitor’ Copyright © Iceland Monitor)
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:57 am

Robin Hood wrote:
And they will never say such a thing, because quite frankly they can't do it.

(Sorry, but I mean lenders can't do it. The BoE actually can)


The ‘link’ to the BoE 2014 Bulletin, is in the article ...... maybe you should read it again?



Read the entire BoE paper, and at no point was there any claim that money can't be created from thin air.

I put up some links about the very same papers which a complete explanation of what they actually mean. The Guardian, is placing its own spin which means:
1) they either do not fully understand the BoE papers completely, or
2) they are putting their own spin on it.

The BoE papers are not written for ease of understanding by the mass public. In addition, you are telling me to selectively watch a fragment of the video, presumably because they are going to say that they are able to create money. Well I am sorry but you need to listen to the explanation as to exactly what they mean, and cash multiplication, fractional banking and lending is not the same as having the power or authority to create money. It is entirely different.

The concepts they talk about is money multiplication which is possible from the fractional Banking Systems we have. In other words, Banks only need to maintain a certain supply of cash and the remaining is electronic BROAD Money.

This happens every second of the day whenever workers are being paid or whenever pensioners get their pension. It's electronic money which does not exist, but as far as the Bank is concerned it does exist and they are all liabilities which the Bank needs to support just in case you go to an ATM Machine.

The same thing applies to lending. They enter a credit or IOU into someones account which must be supported by cash potentially. but 9 times out of 10, it will be transferred to another account or another Bank for the purchase of Goods and Services.

The lending is also supported by the servicing and security capability of the borrower. Not everyone can simply go to a Bank and just get a loan. It's the same as using Gold to support currency which use to happen over a century ago. The difference with the system today, is that Banking and borrowing is a lot more mainstream than what it use to be.

So no, you are completely wrong. Banks are unable to create money from thin air, and that is EXACTLY what the BoE is saying.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:05 am

And if you really want to educate yourself about the workings of Banks, I would suggest you read these links.

Do banks really create money out of thin air?[/b]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/ ... -thin-air/

Do Banks Create Money from Thin Air?

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013 ... n-air.html

Money creation in the modern economy

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publicat ... 14q102.pdf

You don't need an explanation from the Guardian, which is usually full of Leftist nonsense, to offer their own nonsensical explanation. Get it from the experts.

You would be better off reading the BoE papers on their own, even though it is full of jargon and economic concepts most people won't even understand.

And another thing. What you see as a scam or conspiracy I see as completely the opposite. I see it as innovative, logical and understandable. Because I know that without fractional Banking, and money multiplication the global economy will not be where it is today and all people on the planet will be much poorer, and more people will be below the poverty line, and that there will be less jobs and much less activity.

These innovations into Banking actually opened the entire Banking System to the masses, and it gave the little guy access to opportunities so that they can get ahead.

I can't see anything wrong with it all. And I don't like Socialists trying to upset the apple cart basically because they are too stupid to have a go, or are too lazy, and hence they want to ruin it for everyone else.

It is a fragile system, and is heavily reliant on consumer confidence.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:24 am

Paphitis:
The BoE papers are not written for ease of understanding by the mass public.

But, that's just it, they were! You do not need to be an economist to understand them, just reasonable educated. Just because you can’t understand them it does not mean that everyone else has the same lack of intelligence as you.

Paphitis:
.......... as to exactly what they mean, and cash multiplication, fractional banking and lending is not the same as having the power or authority to create money. It is entirely different.

The concepts they talk about is money multiplication which is possible from the fractional Banking Systems we have. In other words, Banks only need to maintain a certain supply of cash and the remaining is electronic BROAD Money.


Bank of England Q4 bulletin 2014:
Very first paragraph of the BoE bulletin ....

In the modern economy, most money takes the form of bank deposits. But how those bank deposits are created is often misunderstood:

The principal way is through commercial banks making loans. Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, [b]thereby creating new money.[/b] (Note: Bank creates ...... new money ..... new as in ‘... never previously existed’!)

The reality of how money is created today differs from the description found in some economics textbooks:

• Rather than banks receiving deposits when households
save and then lending them out, bank lending creates
deposits
. (Note: BANK creates deposits ...... that is your ‘broad money’)

• In normal times, the central bank does not fix the amount
of money in circulation, nor is central bank money ‘multiplied up’ into more loans and deposits. (Note: .... bank money is NOT ‘multiplied up’ as you seem convinced it is.)


I don’t think anyone who can read would be confused by the above statement. Obviously ..... this subject is way above your intellect level! The BoE states very clearly that the ‘multiplying concept’ of the banking process that you describe, is one of the common misconceptions and that is supported 100% by other authoritative sources.

The rest of your post is just ill-informed, based on ALL the common misconceptions the BoE article lists as such, and based solely on your distorted perception. :roll:

So , you are completely wrong. Banks are able to create money from nothing (thin air), and that is EXACTLY what the BoE is saying. It is just totally beyond your comprehension! :roll:
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:28 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:
The BoE papers are not written for ease of understanding by the mass public.

But, that's just it, they were! You do not need to be an economist to understand them, just reasonable educated. Just because you can’t understand them it does not mean that everyone else has the same lack of intelligence as you.

Paphitis:
.......... as to exactly what they mean, and cash multiplication, fractional banking and lending is not the same as having the power or authority to create money. It is entirely different.

The concepts they talk about is money multiplication which is possible from the fractional Banking Systems we have. In other words, Banks only need to maintain a certain supply of cash and the remaining is electronic BROAD Money.


Bank of England Q4 bulletin 2014:
Very first paragraph of the BoE bulletin ....

In the modern economy, most money takes the form of bank deposits. But how those bank deposits are created is often misunderstood:

The principal way is through commercial banks making loans. Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, [b]thereby creating new money.[/b] (Note: Bank creates ...... new money ..... new as in ‘... never previously existed’!)

The reality of how money is created today differs from the description found in some economics textbooks:

• Rather than banks receiving deposits when households
save and then lending them out, bank lending creates
deposits
. (Note: BANK creates deposits ...... that is your ‘broad money’)

• In normal times, the central bank does not fix the amount
of money in circulation, nor is central bank money ‘multiplied up’ into more loans and deposits. (Note: .... bank money is NOT ‘multiplied up’ as you seem convinced it is.)


I don’t think anyone who can read would be confused by the above statement. Obviously ..... this subject is way above your intellect level! The BoE states very clearly that the ‘multiplying concept’ of the banking process that you describe, is one of the common misconceptions and that is supported 100% by other authoritative sources.

The rest of your post is just ill-informed, based on ALL the common misconceptions the BoE article lists as such, and based solely on your distorted perception. :roll:

So , you are completely wrong. Banks are able to create money from nothing (thin air), and that is EXACTLY what the BoE is saying. It is just totally beyond your comprehension! :roll:


Obviously you're very confused. You are reading it and moulding your own meaning and I have absolutely no clue what it is you're on about.

I already posted several links which explain things in a basic manner so that the mainstream with no financial or economic grounding can understand it.

And in absolutely no way shape or form, can a Commercial bank just create money out of nothing. Even in the way these transactions are constructed and initiated by the borrower, a Bank is actually paying them through provided collateral which they offer to the Bank as security. It then becomes an IOU. Hence the saying that all money has a cost. Loans, actually have a cost to a Bank as well as add to its cash supply burden.

It is sometimes said that commercial banks in our modern monetary system create money “from thin air”. While there is truth in this metaphorical claim, the metaphor can also be seriously misleading, and leads some to attribute powers to commercial banks that are actually retained by the government alone under our system. It is worth trying to get clear about all this.


Suppose you have some debt to pay; or suppose that there is some good or service that you wish to purchase on the spot. How can you make the payment? Clearly you are going to have to hand over something of positive value. In order to pay off a debt you will have to possess some asset that you can transfer to your creditor in a way that discharges your obligation. Similarly, in order to purchase some good or service on the spot, you will need to possess some asset that the seller is willing to accept in exchange for the good or service that is sold to you. The asset you use might be a very specific, unique and particularized kind of thing, depending on the nature of whatever implicit or explicit contract you have with the creditor or seller. But more often than not, you will pay with a generic and widely accepted type of asset, once which in used routinely to buy things and discharge debts, and that seems to exist mainly or solely for those very purposes. Such payment assets have existed in many different forms historically, along with different kinds systems for generating, storing, transferring and regulating these assets. We customarily call these assets “money”.

Payment assets obviously possess value, for if they didn’t they would not be accepted in exchange for other things of value. As a result, it is rare that one can acquire these payment assets for nothing. Usually you need to give something up in return. The money you use to buy a car was most likely obtained either in exchange for some good you traded for the money, or for some labor service you provided to an employer. You can also obtain payment assets in exchange for promises – even for promises to hand over an even greater quantity of the very same kind of asset as some point in the future.

Among the most common ways of paying one’s own debts or paying for goods and services is to pay with the debt of a third party. For example, suppose I give a signed note to Pat Brown that says, “I agree to pay Pat Brown, or the bearer of this note, $100 on demand.” And suppose Pat has a $100 debt to the corner grocer. Pat might attempt to pay the grocery tab with that IOU. If the grocer accepts the note, then Pat has paid a debt with a debt.

Once I have issued and signed the note, and Pat has accepted it, I have a liability. And if that liability is of a kind that Pat is legally permitted to sign over or otherwise transfer to a third party, it is said to be “negotiable”. If Pat does whatever is legally required to convey the IOU to the grocer to pay the grocery tab, the grocer becomes a “holder in due course” of the negotiable liability. At that point, Pat no longer has a debt to the grocer. But I still have a debt. I previously had a debt to Pat; but now I have a debt to the grocer. That’s what it means for a debt liability to be negotiable: the creditor who holds that debt as an asset can transfer it to a third party, so that the debtor ends up owing the same debt to a new creditor.

Where did the IOU come from? Was it created from thin air? More or less. Yes, a certain amount of paper and ink and work might have been involved in producing it, so its production didn’t come with zero cost. But typically the cost of making the promise will be so low in proportion to the amount promised, that we don’t go far wrong in thinking of the promise as having been produced from thin air, created ex nihilo as it were. And it is not as though to make a promise I have to pull the promise out of my pre-existing promise stash. The promise doesn’t really come from anywhere. There is no effective limit on my ability to make promises beyond the length of my lifespan, and the number of people in the world to whom I might make them. But the fact that my ability to make promises is virtually unlimited does not mean that my ability to get my promises accepted is virtually unlimited. Some people and some commercial entities have a much easier time getting their promises accepted than do others. Making promises is a lot easier than making credible promises; and accepting a promise that you personally find credible might be a lot easier than trading such a promise to someone else. To trade away any promises you possess, you must be able to convince others that they should find the promise just as credible as you did when you first acquired it. Also, once I have made a promise and had it accepted, I am bound in a way I wasn’t before. The holder of the promise possesses a legally binding claim on my assets.

A bank deposit account is such a promise, and it therefore represents a debt or liability of a bank to the account holder. If you have a bank deposit account then you are in possession of a promise by the bank to pay you a defined amount. If it is a demand deposit account, then the promise is to pay on demand. The agreement you have made with the bank specifies the conditions under which you can demand payment on the debt or make use of that debt – and those specified conditions usually include the right to transfer part or all of that debt to a third party. Most banks have a good track record in paying the debts represented by their deposit accounts, and there are also reliable government guarantees in place to pay most of the deposit account debts that insolvent banks find themselves unable to pay. Thus bank debt functions as a fairly reliable and very widely accepted payment asset. Bank deposit liabilities are a form of money.

Of course, when you transfer the bank’s debt to a third party, you don’t literally transfer your bank account to that party. Instead you give the party some financial instrument, or send some electronic payment instruction, that ultimately results in your bank having a smaller debt to you, but a correspondingly larger debt to the payee. For example, you might have a demand deposit account with $10,000 in it and give someone a check drawn on that account for $1000. If the recipient has an account at that bank, they can present the check – your payment order – to the bank, following which your bank reduces the amount in your account by $1000 and increases the amount in the recipient’s account by $1000. In other words, the bank’s debt to you has been reduced by $1000 and its debt to the recipient has been increased by $1000. You have paid the recipient with a debt. However the debt you paid with was not your debt. Rather the debt you paid with was the debt of some other debtor – the bank – and is a debt obligation of which you were the initial creditor, not the debtor.

Note that the person who took your check to the bank might not have been willing to accept payment from the bank in the form of further bank debt, that is, in the form of an amount credited to their account at that bank. Instead they might have demanded cash. Generally speaking, that’s up to them. If they accept a deposit balance, then the bank still has a debt to them. If they are paid in cash, then the bank’s debt has been discharged, but the bank has had to surrender a payment asset in order to discharge it – in this case money from its vault.

Now this raises a question. As we have already seen, one way to pay a debt is with another debt – more specifically with a negotiable liability. But if I pay a debt with my bank’s debt, how does my bank pay that debt when they are required to pay it off? Or looked at slightly differently, given that my bank’s debt to me can serve as my payment asset, what kind of thing can serve as my bank’s payment asset? And when do banks pay the debts represented by their depositors’ account balances?

For most banks in the US banking system there are two fundamental types of payment assets banks use to pay their debts. But perhaps another way of putting it is that there are two main forms of one fundamental type of payment asset. That payment asset consists in the negotiable liabilities of the central bank, i.e. the Fed. These liabilities come in two forms: the deposit balances that commercial banks in the Fed system hold at the twelve Federal Reserve Banks, and the paper currency notes that the Fed also issues. Just as you and I possess payment assets in the form of commercial bank account balances, commercial banks possess payment assets in the form of central bank account balances. In each case, that balance is an asset of the holder of the account and a liability of the depository institution at which the account it is held. You and I can pay our debts with commercial bank debt; commercial banks pay their debts with central bank debt. Note, however, that one form of central bank debt is widely held by both commercial banks and the non-bank public: the currency notes that banks hold in their vaults and that you and I hold in our wallets.

But when do banks pay the debts represented by their depositors’ accounts? We have already considered one occasion: someone presents a check at a bank and receives either cash or a positive increment to their account balance at that bank. Another way in which bank’s pay their debts is by rolling them over into debts of the same kind or a different kind, as when the promise represented by a certificate of deposit is redeemed in the form of an increment of dollars to some demand account balance.

But banks also pay their debts when they are ordered by their depositors to pay someone who does not have an account at the same bank. Suppose you pay $300 to Bob’s Propane with a check or electronic check card, and Bob’s Propane holds its accounts at Maple Valley Bank, while your account is held at Ridge Bank. While the exact procedures for clearing and settling this payment differ according to the mechanisms used, the end result is the same. Bob will end up with $300 more in his Maple Valley Bank account, and you will end up with $300 less in your Ridge Bank account. But banks are not in the habit of giving away money for free, and Maple Valley Bank is not going to increase its deposit account liability to Bob’s Propane $300 without getting something in return. In addition, Ridge Bank does not receive the benefit of reducing its liability to you by $300 without giving something up in return. What Maple Valley Bank receives and Ridge Bank gives up is a $300 balance in their own deposit accounts at the Fed. You paid Bob with Ridge Bank’s negotiable liability; Maple Valley Bank then gave Bob its liability in the form of a deposit balance in exchange for Ridge Bank’s liability, and demanded payment from Ridge Bank. Finally, Ridge Bank paid by directing its bank, the Fed, to reduce its own account balance by $300 and increase Maple Valley Bank’s account balance by $300.

But we often hear that banks create money “from thin air”. Doesn’t that mean that a bank never has to obtain payment assets from some external source in order to pay its debts? Can’t the bank simply create its own payment assets out of the thinness of air, so to speak, and pay its debts with those newly-created assets? Aren’t banks in this sense self-funding?

No, banks are not self-funding, either individually or in the aggregate. The “out of thin air” language, while containing elements of truth, can be extremely misleading, and people using this language sometimes woefully under-represent the significance of central bank liabilities and the government in the US financial system. Banks can indeed create deposit account liabilities from thin air, just as you and I can create liabilities from thin air when we issue IOU’s and someone accepts them. But those deposit liabilities are debts of the bank, just as the IOUs that you and I issue are our debts. And these bank debts are not just so-called debts or pro forma debts. They are real debts which banks must and do routinely pay off in the course of doing everyday business; and the assets a bank uses to pay these debts come from sources external to the bank. A bank cannot simply manufacture its own payment assets from thin air.

Suppose our old friend Ridge Bank, for example, wishes to purchase a fleet of company cars. It might be able to pay for the cars by creating a deposit account for a car company and crediting that account with the total purchase price for the fleet. But that account balance is itself a debt of the bank. Yes, the bank can pay for the cars with this debt, but that is no different in principle than the fact that you and I can pay for a car with an IOU. These debts are liabilities that can and will be extinguished over time by surrendering assets that the issuer of the liability doesn’t create or control. It’s always possible that the car company will just allow the balance to sit in its account indefinitely. But more likely, the company will begin to spend the money. Some of the expenditures might be to people or companies who have accounts at the same bank, which means balances just move from one Ridge Bank account to another Ridge Bank account, without the deposit liability being discharged. But over time a large proportion of that balance will either be withdrawn in the form of cash or used to pay people who bank elsewhere, and in each case the bank will have to surrender some externally created asset to meet its obligation. And note that even if the liability just sits unredeemed in the car company’s account for an extended period of time, the existence of those liabilities reduces the bank’s equity, and thus reduces the degree to which the bank’s owners profit from the bank’s operations.

People who are fond of saying the banks create money “from thin air” often seem to suggest that banks are no different than the government in that regard, and can thus obtain valuable monetary assets simply by manufacturing them ex nihilo, in effect profiting from pure seigniorage in the way a currency-issuing government can. But this picture is wildly inadequate. If banks could simply summon their assets into existence out of the aether, then every bank in the country could be as rich as an Arabian Gulf emir, manufacturing money at will to purchase solid gold chandeliers, 100-story luxury high rises, Olympic swimming pools, indoor ski slopes, and a personal entourage of world-renowned chefs, attendants and masseuses. The sky would be the limit. But clearly this is clearly not the case. There is a lot to complain about with regard to banking; lots of people in the banking system are making completely unwarranted profits from a massively bloated and exploitative financial system. But the wrongness here comes from the banking system’s ability to suck, squeeze and swindle assets from others; not from its simply conjuring these assets out of nothing.

There are several features of the existing banking system that sometimes lead to confusion about the role of commercial banks liabilities in our existing system, and about their dependence on central bank liabilities. We have space to consider just two of them: netting and government deposits at commercial banks.

Netting. Suppose Cogswell Cogs owes $50,000 to Slate Quarry for a delivery of gravel, and Slate Quarry owes Cogswell Cogs $60,000 for a delivery of cogs. The two companies might each issue separate payments of $50,000 and $60,000 respectively to settle their obligations. A more efficient method of settling the obligations, however, would be for both companies to agree to use the Cogswell Cogs debt to reduce the Slate Quarry debt by $50,000. Slate then pays Cogswell the net $10,000 balance and their business is terminated.

Banks can do the same thing. In the US, registered banks can make use of CHIPS, the Clearing House Interbank Payment System. CHIPS has its own account at the Fed, which participating banks pre-fund at the beginning of every business day by transferring money from their own Fed account to the CHIPS account. Net daily payment balances are calculated as the resultant of all of the payment obligations the participating institutions owe to one another, and payments are made by CHIPS by the end of the day to banks that end up with a net positive closing position. If a bank has a negative closing position – that is, if the amount pre-funded is insufficient to cover that days payments – then the bank pays CHIPS what it owes by making another Fedwire transfer from its Fed account to the CHIPS Fed account. Because multiple payment obligations are incurred among those participating banks throughout the day, then just as in the case of Cogswell Cogs and Slate Quarry, the actual amount that needs to change hands in a given day is much less than it would be if each payment were processed separately by the gross settlement system Fedwire.

Notice, however, that the system is ultimately dependent on the Fedwire system, and CHIPS just inserts an efficiency-enhancing intermediary between the Fed and the banking system. Participating banks can settle some of their less time sensitive interbank payments on the books of CHIPS, but they have to settle with CHIPS via the Fed. And larger, more time-sensitive payments are still settled directly via Fedwire.

Also notice that even in the case of a netting system, financial debts are still settled with assets that are not internally manufactured from thin air by the debtor. Consider, once again, Cogswell Cogs and Slate Quarry. To settle their business, Slate paid Cogswell $10,000 and Cogswell paid nothing. But Cogswell began by owing $50,000. So does that mean that Cogswell somehow manufactured a $50,000 benefit out of nowhere? Of course not. Before they settled, Cogswell held a $60,000 debt from Slate, but at the end of the day it received only $10,000. Cogswell received a cancellation of its own $50,000 debt in exchange for cancelling $50,000 of Slate’s debt. In other words, it had to relinquish an asset.



Government deposits at commercial banks. It is sometimes argued that the US government must be dependent on commercial bank money to fund its various activities and public enterprises, because the US Treasury holds some deposit balances at commercial banks. But I believe this is a seriously misleading claim. The government is certainly dependent on private sector economic activity and finance in a more general sense: if there were less private sector economic activity, there would be correspondingly fewer goods and services produced by our society, and thus fewer real assets that the government could make obtain and make use of to carry out its own activities. But the government is not financially dependent in any fundamental way on commercial bank deposit liabilities to carry out government spending.

To see this, let’s first look at a simplified picture of Treasury taxing and spending, before moving to the more detailed and accurate picture. The US Treasury has an account at the Fed called the “general account,” and that is the account from which it spends. Suppose I have an account at Maple Valley Bank from which I pay a $2000 tax obligation to the US government. Here’s the simplified picture: I send a check to the government, and as a result of the check being cleared $2000 is transferred from Maple Valley Bank’s Fed account to the Treasury general account. At the same time, my deposit account balance at Maple Valley Bank is reduced by $2000 and so Maple Valley Bank’s debt to me is reduced by $2000. Thus, Maple Valley Bank has lost both a $2000 asset and a $2000 liability, and experiences no net loss or gain. But the US Treasury now has $2000 more and I have $2000 less. The Treasury then spends that $2000 by buying $2000 worth of sticky note pads from Acme Office Supplies, a company which banks at Old Union Bank. After the various payment operations are completed, Acme’s account at Old Union has $2000 more in it, and $2000 has been transferred from the Treasury general account to Old Union’s reserve account at the Fed.

Now here’s the more accurate picture: In practice it has been found that conducting government operations in the way just described results in undesirable volatility in bank reserve balances, which interferes with the central bank’s ability to implement its target rate for interbank lending: So the government has introduced Treasury Tax and Loan (TT&L) accounts. TT&L accounts are US Treasury accounts at commercial banks designated as TT&L depositories. Suppose Ridge Bank is such a depository. Then when I send my $2000 check to the government, it may deposit it in its TT&L account at Ridge Bank. As a result, $2000 is transferred from Maple Valley Bank’s Fed account to Ridge Bank’s Fed account. At that point, no reserves have left the banking system. But as the Treasury spends over time, it continually transfers money from its TT&L accounts to the general account, and then spends from the general account. As that happens, central bank liabilities first leave commercial bank reserve accounts and then go back into those accounts after the Treasury spends.

Clearly there is no fundamental difference between the simplified system and the more complex system that uses the TT&L accounts as monetary way stations. The TT&L accounts exist solely to smooth out the flow of central bank liabilities to and from the Treasury general account and commercial bank reserve accounts. There is no sense in which the Treasury needs the commercial banks to “create” money in those accounts to carry out its taxing and spending operations.

In a broader sense it should be clear that, far from needing to acquire commercial bank liabilities in order to spend, the government doesn’t even need to obtain Federal Reserve liabilities from commercial bank reserve accounts in order to spend, and could alter the existing system if it so chose. The central bank is itself an arm of the US government and thus liabilities of the Fed held as assets by the Treasury are just amounts owed by one government account to another government account. That the US government chooses to operate in such a way that payments from one arm of the government are processed on the books of another arm of the government is an administrative and policy choice, not a deep feature of the monetary system.

What is true in the “from thin air” metaphor is that commercial banks are able to initiate the process of expanding deposit balances via lending without first obtaining any additional assets that might be needed to handle the added payment obligations and withdrawal claims that the additional deposit liabilities might impose on the bank. It can expand the deposits first and acquire the additional assets, if necessary, afterwards. And, of course, if the bank already possesses excess payment assets, it might not be able to expand its deposit liabilities without acquiring any more payment assets. It is also important to recognize that while banks obtain some reserve payment assets by borrowing them – either from other banks or directly from the Fed – some of those reserve assets are acquired for “free”: as interest on loans the banks make to the Treasury and as interest on reserve balances they already hold.

But it is crucial to recognize that banks do not and cannot simply manufacture their own assets – whether from thin air or otherwise. What they manufacture are liabilities; that is, debts. And they obtain assets from external sources, mainly by trading debts for debts.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:04 pm

Paphitis:

I have come to the conclusion that you are either as thick as two short planks or a wind-up merchant!

Looking at this thread and your head banking concept of Arabs, your attitude on Syria; then I think the latter most likely because nobody, just nobody could be that dumb and out of touch with reality. :roll: :x
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:17 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:

I have come to the conclusion that you are either as thick as two short planks or a wind-up merchant!

Looking at this thread and your head banking concept of Arabs, your attitude on Syria; then I think the latter most likely because nobody, just nobody could be that dumb and out of touch with reality. :roll: :x


Robin Hood,

my sanity is just fine. And I know what I am talking about.

My views on Syria are indeed very mainstream and yes, I do not trust Pootin and never will. Assad is a war criminal. I think it is your views which are appalling.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/ap ... by-country

Also, my views about the Banks can't be misinterpreted by the sane as tacit support for the Banks like you accuse. Yes, your tactic is to link me with Bankers and hence taint my views with the bad rep Banks generally have. Unfortunately for you, it is not just the Banks but the corporate world which has a bad image.

I am a supporter of free opportunity, and a fair go, especially for the little guy trying to get ahead. What Banks do, essentially opens up the field and gives opportunities to the little guy who ordinarily would have been excluded 100 years ago or more. And banks make it all possible.

Sure, they have record profits, and they keep raising their fees at the expense of everyone, but our market is competitive, and consumers have rights.

I see nothing wrong with how Banks make loans, unless they give out loans to people who can't afford them (prey on the poor), and their fees on Credit Facilities like VISA for instance. In fact, I do not see another workable alternative to the system as it stands today. The system is designed to multiply money so that projects can be funded, pensions and allowances are paid, and so people can buy homes.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:37 am

Paphitis:
The system is designed to multiply money so that projects can be funded, pensions and allowances are paid, and so people can buy homes.


Multiply? Wrong! Create? Correct! (Ref: BoE bulletin YOU posted), try reading it again until the penny drops............. and the Banks profit from perpetual debt slavery, not the people .. .... they just pay the banks through being taxed, whilst the Super Rich evade their share, by off-shoring! When there is a shortfall ...... it is the people that fund it not the banks or the Super Rich.
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:11 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:
The system is designed to multiply money so that projects can be funded, pensions and allowances are paid, and so people can buy homes.


Multiply? Wrong! Create? Correct! (Ref: BoE bulletin YOU posted), try reading it again until the penny drops............. and the Banks profit from perpetual debt slavery, not the people .. .... they just pay the banks through being taxed, whilst the Super Rich evade their share, by off-shoring! When there is a shortfall ...... it is the people that fund it not the banks or the Super Rich.


Multiply and create but certainly not from thin air. Whether you like it or not, Goods and services are changing control or the borrower is handing over substantial security over an asset of a specified market value and the Banks are extending an IOU.

That is not creating money. The only Bank that has this ability is the Central bank which is in fact owned by the Government.

People are responsible for their own decisions, that is a beauty of living in a free market economy. Thankfully, most people make correct decisions in accordance with their own personal ambitions and abilities, and for some it could be as simple as owning their family home. Others have greater ambition. It is whatever makes you happy. A lot of people will never be satisfied. But our system accommodates most people and provides opportunity to whoever wants it.

As for the rich evading their tax, well yes that does happen. It also happens at the other end. Banks however pay their tax right? Of course they do. They have not been implicated in this tax dodge other than apparently some Banks hooking up their clients with offshore havens. Yes your Bankers are suppose to be working for their clients. Back to the old days when they use to take an active interest in their clients and actually offered real assistance, rather than be a number.

I believe they have that right because you would have to be an idiot to pay full tax. Why the hell would you want to when you have idiots in power?

Which brings me to the Arabs. Tax is 0% You can choose to make a "donation" (corruption) of let's say 2 to 4% and they keep records and you obtain gratitude and benefits. I prefer this system.

Alcohol as well whenever you want it. It's a 2 tier society yes. The West is 2 tier as well, as just that most people have their heads buried in the sand and are stupid!
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest