Cyprus-Forum.com

[Maximus]

Milti,

Can you share more information about the criteria you use to determine whether a stock is undervalued?

How can you do this with a crypto currency?

For example, the main argument for crypto's is that the technology is what makes the coin worth 'x' amount or that they will replace fiat currencies or that you can transfer money anonymously. Its like someone telling you to invest in sms technology back in the day because its going to explode as a communication medium (never mind that its has). When in fact, it would be more correct to invest in the telecoms company that is charging people to send sms's and are in a position to make money out of the technology.

Who has commercialized block chain technology and is successfully making money out of it?

[Maximus]

The fact is, for these crypto currencies, is that they are fueled by perception and social trends.

What helped Bitcoin take off was the novelty factor (gimmick) and the Cypriot banking crisis which created mass hysteria about banks stealing peoples money. This paved the way for more cryptos to be launched, which has just saturated the market and they all seem to be correlated to bitcoin. When no one is interested in them anymore, because the novelty has worn off, the price for crypto's will tank. As we have seen.

That bubble has burst and in my opinion, the price is not coming back, despite its finite nature because no one really needs to own it moving forwards.

As a payment option, not many merchants have adopted it a decade after its inception.

The technology may get modified and adopted by the banks and they will continue doing business as normal.

[CrookedRiverGuy]

The technology may get modified and adopted by the banks and they will continue doing business as normal.

Exactly. It doesn't take more than a killer app "CryptoPay" (I made that name up, but instantly recognized something with that name probably already exists - and it does) that revolutionize its poor (near absent) liquidity.

Personally I believe cryptos can cause too much nuisance.

The big paradox is that a currency which is responsible for huge power waste (its "mining") and is solely based on algorithms isn't practical to use. What's wrong then, really?

How about its core assets? When the major transaction volumes (forget the "investing") are used within the realms of drugs, cover up black money, illegal arms, trafficing and whatever, I honestly prefer money making to be in the control of disutable, national regimes.

[CrookedRiverGuy]

An hour into trading and Tomtom up to 7.55. Early morning yet but it does appear that there is a continued interest.
Of course the price will fluctuate , but for me at least thus far very satisfactory.

It's a dead cat bounce. Sorry to say it. you appear to be recently engaged with this stock. The skies are all blue (just like they were a couple of years ago).

[Paphitis]

Guys, as the saying goes, idou i Rodos idou to pidima.
I dont much care for past performances, i idendify a company undervalued and likely to be pounced upon and I buy. I have thus far given you 2 stocks. Tomtom and Ripple XRP. Will give you another one.A biotec stock, Kalapagos. Currently at 93.74 euros.
This one for long term investment.
Who cares if a share was traded at 100 euros 5 years ago and now down to 1 cent.
I will buy if I think it will double my outlay.
Its realy simple.

Yes but you said earlier that you study the financial reports of the companies and buy only those whose stock prices are undervalued.
Did you really study the financial reports of TomTom???
And If you did, what makes you so sure the books have not been cooked anyway?

These listed companies are audited by independent accountancy firms who sign off on the Financial reports and statements to the Securities and Investments Commission. All these reports are downloadable from the Stock Exchange because every listed company must lodge them.

If they cook anything, the accountants and the board of the company involved are looking at jail time.

In addition, if you cook the books, you pay tax.

The UK, Australia or US isn't Cyprus where anything is possible.

[Paphitis]

why did it plummet so hard in one day, from about 8.50 to 5.75 mid September?

it has taken more than a month and it still hasn't recovered that sharp down move.

Because prices are manipulated!
I can't beleive Milti got stuck to this stock by just looking at the price.
What were the volumes??
Such high changes within a single day should be enough to convince you this is not a reliable stock.

I'm not sure about Ripple because I never looked at it, but Tom Tom is pretty much tier 2 Blue Chip.

It's sort after and Apple are chasing it so that they can use Tom Tom GPS maps on their Iphone and Ipad gadgets.

Stocks are manipulated by supply and demand just like the price of Oil and everything else on the market, including property. It is dictated by the price buyers are willing to pay on an open market.

Not only that, but prices are actually dictated by profits per share, profit index, and the dividends. The more profitable a company is, the higher volumes in trade it will have on its shares and share prices generally rise.

Among the top GPS software that a few years back were using their own maps be it TomTom, Garmin, Sygic, IGO and so many others, only a few survived because they couldn't keep up with the updates of their OWN maps.
Besides there were always companies that had better maps than those software, e.g Microsodt, OpenStreet Maps, and Google.
Everyone surrendered to Google today at least for street Navigation. My No1 preference was always Sygic.
OziExplorer and other software for off street positioning, waypoints and routes for military, recreational or other activities were always slaves of Google Satellite maps anyway.

So no way TomTom would have any value today for it's own maps. It may have a certain value because of old reputation and because it continues to sell, but don't expect it to ever have an upward trend.
Anyone who has the slightest idea of Blue chips should be crazy to consider TomTom as a serious candidate TODAY. 6-10 years ago yes, but not today. This a just a software in decline.

Tom Tom is one of the biggest GPS mapping companies. they are well known in the market and they are profitable.

I'm not talking about what you or I prefer. Tom Tom actually have a dominant position and look like they won't be going anywhere. They are probably also prime takeover fodder.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... -Year-2017

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/19/tomtom- ... rowth.html

There profits are up and their share price is on a rally for the moment. Not what I would go for, but Milti might be on to something if Apple continue to show interest.

[Maximus]

These listed companies are audited by independent accountancy firms who sign off on the Financial reports and statements to the Securities and Investments Commission. All these reports are downloadable from the Stock Exchange because every listed company must lodge them.

If they cook anything, the accountants and the board of the company involved are looking at jail time.

In addition, if you cook the books, you pay tax.

The UK, Australia or US isn't Cyprus where anything is possible.

Although this is true, the books can still be cooked somewhat.

For example, a company can spend 50k on computer hardware in the last quarter and list it under their assets on the balance sheet. In reality, if the company was liquidated today, that computer hardware would not sell for 50k in the secondary market.

Its the same with a company's real estate holdings. Property listed under assets is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it and is subjective. So the balance sheet can be cooked or over inflated to make the company seem more valuable that it actually is.

There is no tax to pay on fixed assets that has not already been paid when it was purchased.

When assessing a companies balance sheet you have to do it with a raised eyebrow.

[Maximus]

why did it plummet so hard in one day, from about 8.50 to 5.75 mid September?

it has taken more than a month and it still hasn't recovered that sharp down move.

Because prices are manipulated!
I can't beleive Milti got stuck to this stock by just looking at the price.
What were the volumes??
Such high changes within a single day should be enough to convince you this is not a reliable stock.

I'm not sure about Ripple because I never looked at it, but Tom Tom is pretty much tier 2 Blue Chip.

It's sort after and Apple are chasing it so that they can use Tom Tom GPS maps on their Iphone and Ipad gadgets.

Stocks are manipulated by supply and demand just like the price of Oil and everything else on the market, including property. It is dictated by the price buyers are willing to pay on an open market.

Not only that, but prices are actually dictated by profits per share, profit index, and the dividends. The more profitable a company is, the higher volumes in trade it will have on its shares and share prices generally rise.

Among the top GPS software that a few years back were using their own maps be it TomTom, Garmin, Sygic, IGO and so many others, only a few survived because they couldn't keep up with the updates of their OWN maps.
Besides there were always companies that had better maps than those software, e.g Microsodt, OpenStreet Maps, and Google.
Everyone surrendered to Google today at least for street Navigation. My No1 preference was always Sygic.
OziExplorer and other software for off street positioning, waypoints and routes for military, recreational or other activities were always slaves of Google Satellite maps anyway.

So no way TomTom would have any value today for it's own maps. It may have a certain value because of old reputation and because it continues to sell, but don't expect it to ever have an upward trend.
Anyone who has the slightest idea of Blue chips should be crazy to consider TomTom as a serious candidate TODAY. 6-10 years ago yes, but not today. This a just a software in decline.

Tom Tom is one of the biggest GPS mapping companies. they are well known in the market and they are profitable.

I'm not talking about what you or I prefer. Tom Tom actually have a dominant position and look like they won't be going anywhere. They are probably also prime takeover fodder.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... -Year-2017

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/19/tomtom- ... rowth.html

There profits are up and their share price is on a rally for the moment. Not what I would go for, but Milti might be on to something if Apple continue to show interest.

Yahoo finance says they have a profit margin of -0.11%, and a price to book value of 2.37. This is 2018's data.

Which means that at the current share price, you are paying 2.37 x what the company's assets are worth.

This means you are over paying to own a share of the company, its not what you would classify as an undervalued stock. By definition, Warren Buffet, who is a value investor, is looking to buy at a book value of about 0.7, among other things. Which means that he is practically buying $1 for 70 cents. At the current book value, you are buying $1 for $2.37. Perhaps this is part of the reason why the stock price is in a downtrend.

If apple are interested in a part of their business, that part would belong to Apple and not Tom Tom.

If you sell me 30% of your business, your business that remains does not become more valuable, it shrinks unless you do something with that capital to generate more capital.

[miltiades]

Milti,

Can you share more information about the criteria you use to determine whether a stock is undervalued?

How can you do this with a crypto currency?

For example, the main argument for crypto's is that the technology is what makes the coin worth 'x' amount or that they will replace fiat currencies or that you can transfer money anonymously. Its like someone telling you to invest in sms technology back in the day because its going to explode as a communication medium (never mind that its has). When in fact, it would be more correct to invest in the telecoms company that is charging people to send sms's and are in a position to make money out of the technology.

Who has commercialized block chain technology and is successfully making money out of it?

I do not share information as a general rule.
I did not include Ripple as an undervalued stock, it has tremendous potential for substantial growth.
Tomtom is a very much undervalued stock, bearing in mind that acquisitions over the last few years far exceed iys current valuation. Not so many years ago it was traded at 60 euros. We shall see tomorrow and the week ahead. My own feeling is that by mid November it should go over 10 euros, making me a handsome profit.
By the way, money in the bank does not even earn me 1% PER ANNUM !!!

[Paphitis]

These listed companies are audited by independent accountancy firms who sign off on the Financial reports and statements to the Securities and Investments Commission. All these reports are downloadable from the Stock Exchange because every listed company must lodge them.

If they cook anything, the accountants and the board of the company involved are looking at jail time.

In addition, if you cook the books, you pay tax.

The UK, Australia or US isn't Cyprus where anything is possible.

Although this is true, the books can still be cooked somewhat.

For example, a company can spend 50k on computer hardware in the last quarter and list it under their assets on the balance sheet. In reality, if the company was liquidated today, that computer hardware would not sell for 50k in the secondary market.

Its the same with a company's real estate holdings. Property listed under assets is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it and is subjective. So the balance sheet can be cooked or over inflated to make the company seem more valuable that it actually is.

There is no tax to pay on fixed assets that has not already been paid when it was purchased.

When assessing a companies balance sheet you have to do it with a raised eyebrow.

Buying stuff for tax isn’t illegal. Tax minimisation isn’t illegal. Every business does that from the massive multinational right down to your domestic plumber.

But if you cook the books Greek style, in the US and Australia you would have violated Federal Corporate Law and these offences are serious. In America, FED prisons are not nice. In Australia, FED prison is like being in club Med.

Either way, the Board is looking at serious time.

Going up against a Federal Government agency isn’t going to end up good.