Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

And given that you have included private debt, you have not included Australian Savings which are also among the highest in the world because Australian Pension Funds alone amount to 4.5 Trillion. That is just Australian Pension Funds from the Super System. You can't include the one without the other, because these 4.5 Trillion in savings are invested largely overseas and are therefore debts to Australia. Some are invested in International Bonds too.

So what you are doing is cherry picking and manipulating the definition in a very deceptive manner. Not cool.

Not cherry picking at all.
Try for example deducting foreign investment in agricultural land alone in Australia.
11% of your total 353 million hectares agricultural land is owned partly or fully by foreigners.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... enDocument
Let's assume only half is owned fully by foreigners.
That's about 20 million hectares @ $3000 per hectare the lowest, that's 6 trillion meaning your Pension funds get offset by just the agricultural land foreigners own in Australia!!

Australia is a free market capitalist country. It also owns land and farms in other countries. What is your point? And 11% isn't much at all. The other 89% is Australian owned and you do not take into consideration any land owned by Australians overseas. I am pretty sure we own a lot more. How much land do Australians own in Cyprus? I bet its a lot. Several Billions worth in fact.

Australia also owns such icons like Fox News, 21st century Fox, Sky News and so on. in fact, speaking of media, the top 2 media companies globally are Australian. So we do own a lot of shit. Trillions of Dollars worth of shit. And that is before we include all the Pension Funds we own - another 4.5 Trillion worth. So we are not destitute ok?

In fact, most manufacturing of Australian goods occurs in China as well.

We have corporate Giants such as Woodside Petrolerum, BHP, Wesfarmers and Woolworths. We have many Fortune 500 companies too. We own complete mines and oil fields all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Australia

All these companies are Billion Dollar corporates with stores, factories and services being offered overseas as well as locally.

I am giving you official figures from The Australian Treasury.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

These are the figures our Treasurer, who is the second in charge of the entire country, releases to all of us on TV as he hands down the official State Budget.

So again, I want to know what your figure includes. it really is a simple question. What does the 1.5 trillion include? Does it include corporate debt by Australian businesses yes or no. Does it include private debt?

[Pyrpolizer]

These are not the official debt levels of the Australian Government that it releases every 6 months as part of the National Budget.

You included private debt!

You mean private Debt to foreigners right? Of course we did. That's the definition of it, isn't it?
Australia 1,487,720
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ernal_debt
This is a list of countries by external debt, which is the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in internationally accepted currencies



Again, the official data from the Australian Government are as follows:

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

The above link is from the Australian Parliament and Treasury Office.

Not just that, but the Government forecasts that Australia's debt will peak at 19.2% and then begin to decline. They are about to declare a surplus now or early next year.

Well done Pahitis! Finally a worthy link!
You need to make one more step though.
Go down where it says "further Reading". Press
"Australia’s foreign debt: a quick guide, 28 October 2014."
It will get you here:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... oreignDebt
The articles distinguishes the foreign Dept to Gross and Net, which is similar to what I did here (to find out if Australia is a net Investor or net Debtor) you may still get an idea, by looking at 2014 values.Also if you look at the end of the article (chart 1) in 2013 your net foreign Debt compared to net Foreign investment was 96%

From 1983, however, that situation reversed with debt accounting for 51 per cent of net foreign investment in that year and climbing to well over 70 per cent in the latter half of the 1980s and for most of the 1990s. By the beginning of the 2000s it had climbed to above 80 per cent, and by 2013 it accounted for 96 per cent of net foreign investment.

[Pyrpolizer]

Australia is a free market capitalist country. It also owns land and farms in other countries. What is your point? And 11% isn't much at all. The other 89% is Australian owned and you do not take into consideration any land owned by Australians overseas. I am pretty sure we own a lot more. How much land do Australians own in Cyprus? I bet its a lot. Several Billions worth in fact.

Australia also owns such icons like Fox News, 21st century Fox, Sky News and so on. in fact, speaking of media, the top 2 media companies globally are Australian. So we do own a lot of shit. Trillions of Dollars worth of shit. And that is before we include all the Pension Funds we own - another 4.5 Trillion worth. So we are not destitute ok?

In fact, most manufacturing of Australian goods occurs in China as well.

We have corporate Giants such as Woodside Petrolerum, BHP, Wesfarmers and Woolworths. We have many Fortune 500 companies too. We own complete mines and oil fields all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Australia

All these companies are Billion Dollar corporates with stores, factories and services being offered overseas as well as locally.

I am giving you official figures from The Australian Treasury.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

These are the figures our Treasurer, who is the second in charge of the entire country, releases to all of us on TV as he hands down the official State Budget.

So again, I want to know what your figure includes. it really is a simple question. What does the 1.5 trillion include? Does it include corporate debt by Australian businesses yes or no. Does it include private debt?

Sure you may have this and you may have that. What matters is the total of what you have and what you owe.
I only mentioned one parameter (ownership of agricultural land by foreigners) that offsets another parameter of your own choice (your Funds)
OTOH who is the greatest authority to sum it all up other than your Government itself?
Here it is Paphitis: Straight out of the mouth of your own Government:Therefore no matter how you hate to admit it, your own Govnt says you are a NET DEBTOR!

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/mf/5302.0/

Australia's net INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT liability position was $940.2b at 30 September 2018, a decrease of $17.3b on the revised 30 June 2018 position of $957.5b.

[Paphitis]

These are not the official debt levels of the Australian Government that it releases every 6 months as part of the National Budget.

You included private debt!

You mean private Debt to foreigners right? Of course we did. That's the definition of it, isn't it?
Australia 1,487,720
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ernal_debt
This is a list of countries by external debt, which is the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in internationally accepted currencies



Again, the official data from the Australian Government are as follows:

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

The above link is from the Australian Parliament and Treasury Office.

Not just that, but the Government forecasts that Australia's debt will peak at 19.2% and then begin to decline. They are about to declare a surplus now or early next year.

Well done Pahitis! Finally a worthy link!
You need to make one more step though.
Go down where it says "further Reading". Press
"Australia’s foreign debt: a quick guide, 28 October 2014."
It will get you here:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... oreignDebt
The articles distinguishes the foreign Dept to Gross and Net, which is similar to what I did here (to find out if Australia is a net Investor or net Debtor) you may still get an idea, by looking at 2014 values.Also if you look at the end of the article (chart 1) in 2013 your net foreign Debt compared to net Foreign investment was 96%

From 1983, however, that situation reversed with debt accounting for 51 per cent of net foreign investment in that year and climbing to well over 70 per cent in the latter half of the 1980s and for most of the 1990s. By the beginning of the 2000s it had climbed to above 80 per cent, and by 2013 it accounted for 96 per cent of net foreign investment.

It's exactly what I have been telling you.

That debt as the other Government Link tells you in plain English is the sum of All Foreign Debt - Government, Corporate and Private.

This quick guide looks at the level of Australia’s foreign debt, the interest liability on foreign debt and how these have changed over time. It also looks at foreign debt as a component of net foreign investment, the other component being equity investment. Finally, given that Australia’s gross foreign debt is now bigger than its annual gross domestic product (GDP), the quick guide also considers whether our foreign debt level is too high.

Foreign debt is the amount borrowed from non-residents by residents of Australia. It includes securities such as bonds, as well as loans, advances, deposits, debentures and overdrafts.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... oreignDebt

In other words, these are borrowings by individuals and corporations, not by the Australian Government.

For example, the Woolworths in Nicosia. This is an Australian Owned Fortune 500 company owned by Frank Lowie. One of the richest men on the planet. Frank Lowie is also the Chairman of The Australian A League. I added this for DTs benefit.

For Woolworths to open in Nicosia, they may have needed to borrow, and maybe they might have had to borrowed from Cypriot banks. Who knows? But even by operating in Cyprus this Woolworths Store may also owe money to Frank Lowie or Woolworths in Australia, hence external debt from Cyprus to Australia. You seem to think this is a one way street. It isn't a one way street. Australia has Trillions invested in China, USA, Canada, India, Indonesia, Japan, UK, Germany and France. Trillions.

You said that foreign interests own 11% of Australian Farms. this may be correct. I have not checked and do not intend to. Australian farmers can and do sell to the highest bidder. But you forget that Australian Farmers also own ranches and stations in the USA and Canada. Kidman Pastoral Holdings for instance is a global company, and yes they are also related to Nicole Kidman. Her family is one of the richest families in Australia.

You can't compare this debt with other countries and come up with any valid comparison. Australia is very active internationally. In fact, it is ranked as the highest investor in places like China, one of the highest in Japan, and South Korea. India is also an emerging market. Every week, literally Billions are invested overseas from Australian workers. They buy things like shares and bonds, and Australia buys much more than what foreign interests buy in Australia, because Australia has this Super Scheme which is quite unique. Some countries like Japan, UAE and Norway may run something similar but Australia has been doing this since 1988.

The only valid metric we can use from country to country is to compare Sovereign Debt - which for Australia is 19% of GDP today.

Cyprus has a Sovereign Debt of 106% of GDP. And did you notice that Cyprus' external debt is about 600% of GDP. That is because it doesn't produce much. Australia on the other hand does, and it trades Trillions worth of Goods and Services each year. It still has much lower debts and its debts are probably offset by what Australia is owed in return.

[Paphitis]

Australia is a free market capitalist country. It also owns land and farms in other countries. What is your point? And 11% isn't much at all. The other 89% is Australian owned and you do not take into consideration any land owned by Australians overseas. I am pretty sure we own a lot more. How much land do Australians own in Cyprus? I bet its a lot. Several Billions worth in fact.

Australia also owns such icons like Fox News, 21st century Fox, Sky News and so on. in fact, speaking of media, the top 2 media companies globally are Australian. So we do own a lot of shit. Trillions of Dollars worth of shit. And that is before we include all the Pension Funds we own - another 4.5 Trillion worth. So we are not destitute ok?

In fact, most manufacturing of Australian goods occurs in China as well.

We have corporate Giants such as Woodside Petrolerum, BHP, Wesfarmers and Woolworths. We have many Fortune 500 companies too. We own complete mines and oil fields all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Australia

All these companies are Billion Dollar corporates with stores, factories and services being offered overseas as well as locally.

I am giving you official figures from The Australian Treasury.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

These are the figures our Treasurer, who is the second in charge of the entire country, releases to all of us on TV as he hands down the official State Budget.

So again, I want to know what your figure includes. it really is a simple question. What does the 1.5 trillion include? Does it include corporate debt by Australian businesses yes or no. Does it include private debt?

Sure you may have this and you may have that. What matters is the total of what you have and what you owe.
I only mentioned one parameter (ownership of agricultural land by foreigners) that offsets another parameter of your own choice (your Funds)
OTOH who is the greatest authority to sum it all up other than your Government itself?
Here it is Paphitis: Straight out of the mouth of your own Government:Therefore no matter how you hate to admit it, your own Govnt says you are a NET DEBTOR!

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/mf/5302.0/

Australia's net INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT liability position was $940.2b at 30 September 2018, a decrease of $17.3b on the revised 30 June 2018 position of $957.5b.

It matters in one respect but I am afraid you can't compare what it owes to China. Totally different economy. Australia is a developed OECD service economy now. China isn't. And Australia is a very large investor in China as well. Same with the USA. If Australia and USA pulled out of China, their economy would collapse.

We do have issues with China, but everyone is still on the gravy train, because we are talking about Trillions of Dollars here both ways. The Chinese are walking a tight rope trying to keep things together.

Australian businesses and residents are able to maintain and service much higher levels of debts than China is able to.

What is important is the health of the Australian Government. They release these figures to us regularly. In fact the treasurer talks about it all the time on TV addressing ALL citizens. The Australian Government has very low levels of debt.

Even if you include all the debts owed by corporations and residents, debt levels are very low. Among the lowest on the planet when compared to other OECD.

And when you talk about this debt, it is to all countries. And China owes a large part of its debt to Australia as well. In fact, Australia is China's largest creditor by far.

[DT.]

Australia is a free market capitalist country. It also owns land and farms in other countries. What is your point? And 11% isn't much at all. The other 89% is Australian owned and you do not take into consideration any land owned by Australians overseas. I am pretty sure we own a lot more. How much land do Australians own in Cyprus? I bet its a lot. Several Billions worth in fact.

Australia also owns such icons like Fox News, 21st century Fox, Sky News and so on. in fact, speaking of media, the top 2 media companies globally are Australian. So we do own a lot of shit. Trillions of Dollars worth of shit. And that is before we include all the Pension Funds we own - another 4.5 Trillion worth. So we are not destitute ok?

In fact, most manufacturing of Australian goods occurs in China as well.

We have corporate Giants such as Woodside Petrolerum, BHP, Wesfarmers and Woolworths. We have many Fortune 500 companies too. We own complete mines and oil fields all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Australia

All these companies are Billion Dollar corporates with stores, factories and services being offered overseas as well as locally.

I am giving you official figures from The Australian Treasury.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

These are the figures our Treasurer, who is the second in charge of the entire country, releases to all of us on TV as he hands down the official State Budget.

So again, I want to know what your figure includes. it really is a simple question. What does the 1.5 trillion include? Does it include corporate debt by Australian businesses yes or no. Does it include private debt?

Sure you may have this and you may have that. What matters is the total of what you have and what you owe.
I only mentioned one parameter (ownership of agricultural land by foreigners) that offsets another parameter of your own choice (your Funds)
OTOH who is the greatest authority to sum it all up other than your Government itself?
Here it is Paphitis: Straight out of the mouth of your own Government:Therefore no matter how you hate to admit it, your own Govnt says you are a NET DEBTOR!

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/mf/5302.0/

Australia's net INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT liability position was $940.2b at 30 September 2018, a decrease of $17.3b on the revised 30 June 2018 position of $957.5b.

It matters in one respect but I am afraid you can't compare what it owes to China. Totally different economy. Australia is a developed OECD service economy now. China isn't. And Australia is a very large investor in China as well. Same with the USA. If Australia and USA pulled out of China, their economy would collapse.

We do have issues with China, but everyone is still on the gravy train, because we are talking about Trillions of Dollars here both ways. The Chinese are walking a tight rope trying to keep things together.

Australian businesses and residents are able to maintain and service much higher levels of debts than China is able to.

What is important is the health of the Australian Government. They release these figures to us regularly. In fact the treasurer talks about it all the time on TV addressing ALL citizens. The Australian Government has very low levels of debt.

Even if you include all the debts owed by corporations and residents, debt levels are very low. Among the lowest on the planet when compared to other OECD.

And when you talk about this debt, it is to all countries. And China owes a large part of its debt to Australia as well. In fact, Australia is China's largest creditor by far.

Paphiti I’d love it if you could show me where Australia is China’s biggest creditor. Just so we’re clear, only 3% of chinas debt is held by foreign creditors.

[Paphitis]

Australia is a free market capitalist country. It also owns land and farms in other countries. What is your point? And 11% isn't much at all. The other 89% is Australian owned and you do not take into consideration any land owned by Australians overseas. I am pretty sure we own a lot more. How much land do Australians own in Cyprus? I bet its a lot. Several Billions worth in fact.

Australia also owns such icons like Fox News, 21st century Fox, Sky News and so on. in fact, speaking of media, the top 2 media companies globally are Australian. So we do own a lot of shit. Trillions of Dollars worth of shit. And that is before we include all the Pension Funds we own - another 4.5 Trillion worth. So we are not destitute ok?

In fact, most manufacturing of Australian goods occurs in China as well.

We have corporate Giants such as Woodside Petrolerum, BHP, Wesfarmers and Woolworths. We have many Fortune 500 companies too. We own complete mines and oil fields all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Australia

All these companies are Billion Dollar corporates with stores, factories and services being offered overseas as well as locally.

I am giving you official figures from The Australian Treasury.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... btPosition

These are the figures our Treasurer, who is the second in charge of the entire country, releases to all of us on TV as he hands down the official State Budget.

So again, I want to know what your figure includes. it really is a simple question. What does the 1.5 trillion include? Does it include corporate debt by Australian businesses yes or no. Does it include private debt?

Sure you may have this and you may have that. What matters is the total of what you have and what you owe.
I only mentioned one parameter (ownership of agricultural land by foreigners) that offsets another parameter of your own choice (your Funds)
OTOH who is the greatest authority to sum it all up other than your Government itself?
Here it is Paphitis: Straight out of the mouth of your own Government:Therefore no matter how you hate to admit it, your own Govnt says you are a NET DEBTOR!

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/mf/5302.0/

Australia's net INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT liability position was $940.2b at 30 September 2018, a decrease of $17.3b on the revised 30 June 2018 position of $957.5b.

It matters in one respect but I am afraid you can't compare what it owes to China. Totally different economy. Australia is a developed OECD service economy now. China isn't. And Australia is a very large investor in China as well. Same with the USA. If Australia and USA pulled out of China, their economy would collapse.

We do have issues with China, but everyone is still on the gravy train, because we are talking about Trillions of Dollars here both ways. The Chinese are walking a tight rope trying to keep things together. Compared to China's A Rating.

Australian businesses and residents are able to maintain and service much higher levels of debts than China is able to.

What is important is the health of the Australian Government. They release these figures to us regularly. In fact the treasurer talks about it all the time on TV addressing ALL citizens. The Australian Government has very low levels of debt.

Even if you include all the debts owed by corporations and residents, debt levels are very low. Among the lowest on the planet when compared to other OECD.

And when you talk about this debt, it is to all countries. And China owes a large part of its debt to Australia as well. In fact, Australia is China's largest creditor by far.

Paphiti I’d love it if you could show me where Australia is China’s biggest creditor. Just so we’re clear, only 3% of chinas debt is held by foreign creditors.

Really DT? We have seen how you like changing the posts.

And how much of Australia's External Debt is foreign owned? I don't have stats but I bet it is a small proportion because most of it is corporate and private household debt. I say that because we have 4 Banks in Australia which are among some of the largest institutions in the world. 2 are fortune 500 companies.

So let's get this straight. The 11% of Australian Farms owned by foreign interests contributes to our debt (I still don't know how) but all the factories we have in China does not contribute to any debt.

Here is an article that estimates China's external debt as 25.5 Trillion USD

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ent-expert

How much of that is owned by international investors. Oh wait, international investment doesn't count in this case right? Despite US Treasury Bills and Australian bonds being the least risky because of the AAA ratings.

[DT.]

Don’t be mad Paphiti, you just said that Australia is China’s largest creditor and I was wondering if you have that data to share.

Also you need to stop claiming that Australia’s banks are some of the largest in the world. By assets the closest you get is number 43 and 45 in the world. China the US, Japan, the UK and France have the largest banks.

Btw think you’re also confusing pyros posts with mine. Deep breaths and stay calm otherwise you’ve already lost the argument if you get mad.

[Pyrpolizer]

Really DT? We have seen how you like changing the posts.

And how much of Australia's External Debt is foreign owned? I don't have stats but I bet it is a small proportion because most of it is corporate and private household debt. I say that because we have 4 Banks in Australia which are among some of the largest institutions in the world. 2 are fortune 500 companies.

So let's get this straight. The 11% of Australian Farms owned by foreign interests contributes to our debt (I still don't know how) but all the factories we have in China does not contribute to any debt.

Here is an article that estimates China's external debt as 25.5 Trillion USD

I am afraid we got lost in the translation of definitions in this topic.
How can you call that 25 trillion "external Debt" when the article itself refers to internal borrowing?? Here's what the article says:

Many of the companies in question are state-owned firms that borrowed heavily from government-backed banks and so problems with the sector could ultimately trigger "systemic risks" in the economy, he said.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ent-expert

How much of that is owned by international investors. Oh wait, international investment doesn't count in this case right? Despite US Treasury Bills and Australian bonds being the least risky because of the AAA ratings.

[Paphitis]

Don’t be mad Paphiti, you just said that Australia is China’s largest creditor and I was wondering if you have that data to share.

Also you need to stop claiming that Australia’s banks are some of the largest in the world. By assets the closest you get is number 43 and 45 in the world. China the US, Japan, the UK and France have the largest banks.

Btw think you’re also confusing pyros posts with mine. Deep breaths and stay calm otherwise you’ve already lost the argument if you get mad.

No I don’t have any data.

The only data I have, which I shared was Australia’s Sovereign Debt of about 400 Billion or 19% of GDP.

And I compared this to China’s National Debt of 49% of GDP.

Now given the fact that 49% of the largest GDP in the world, or close to as it is at least the second largest, it is not an insignificant pool of money. It is a sum that is far more than $400 billion.

Australia, from what I have heard is a significant trade partner, and a significant creditor as well. And this amount of money would be a significant amount.

As to External Debt, it is obvious that we are not just talking about Government Debt. But depending on the metric used, it combines corporate debt and even domestic household debt as well as Government and NGO debts. Now, comparing this between Australia and China, is like comparing oranges to lemons. China and Australia are vastly different economies. You of all people should know that DT. Australia is AAA, China is an A. GDP per capita of Australia is over $60,000 per head, whilst China is $8500 per head which is lower than Turkey. Australia is a developed and sophisticated economy but China is an emerging developing economy. Australia, as a result, has a far larger External Debt and Total Debt than China does as a proportion to GDP but China has a larger overall External Debt in terms of monetary value.

You can’t just keep changing the goal posts.