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Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:35 pm

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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:38 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:Milti, did you vote for Ursula von der Leyen or Charles Michel or Christine Lagarde...?

In fact, at the time of the Referendum in June 2016 did you know who any of them were (apart from Christine Lagarde obviously)...?


Can you name a single Cabinet Secretary, Permanent Secretary of any UK ministry , current or historic ? Did you vote for any of them ? Do you even know who and how they are appointed ? The fact is the closest analogue for the EU commission and heads of the directorates in UK government is the heads of the civil service. Now there is indeed much wrong in how they the heads of the EU commission are appointed but they are appointed via agreement amongst the democratically elected leaders of the member states. They do have a 5 year limited fixed term. They do have to be approved by the democratically elected EU parliament. Can you even find out how the heads of the UK civil service are appointed and by whom and who can veto such appointments or even sack them ? If you can and believe me doing so is not easy, then if you dislike being ruled by unelected faceless bureaucrats, then you are in for a shock. Unless of course you only mind being ruled by faceless unelected foreign bureaucrats ?
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:52 pm

erolz66 wrote:...but they are appointed via agreement amongst the democratically elected leaders of the member states.



Of course... :roll:
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:06 pm

I am supposed to believe that the UK whilst within the EU and despite that fact that it has exactly the same rights as every other single member state was so weak, so bullied, so subservient so unable to get its own way on anything that its membership could accurately be called a form of 'oppression', compared with historic forms of oppression like slavery and serfdom

and I am also supposed to believe that in negotiations with the very same entity the UK holds all the cards, can get a trade deal that gives it all the benefits of membership without the need for membership because it is the fifth largest economy in the world and the EU needs the UK and its trade more than the UK needs the EU's.

Something does not add up.
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:15 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
erolz66 wrote:...but they are appointed via agreement amongst the democratically elected leaders of the member states.



Of course... :roll:


You do not think they are appointed via agreement (call it horse trading if you like) amongst the EU council (democratically elected heads of states of each EU member) ? Who do you think appoints them then ? You think they appoint themselves ? If so you are again confusing the EU civil service branch with the UK's equivalent I am afraid, which had seem to be fine for us for over 500 years.
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby Londonrake » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:20 pm

Erolz.

It's a fruitless endeavour to argue about the EU between both sides of the divide. Mind numbing circles. :(

Which of course doesn't stop me - now and then. :lol:

The recent allocation of the appointments of President of the EU Commission and head of the ECB was a travesty. It had absolutely nothing to do with democracy. It was yet another Franco/German stitch up. I read weeks ago that it had been agreed between Macron and Merkel that one would go to the French and the other to Germany, although they got it the wrong way around. It seems the EU has ended up with a French car and German cooking. :lol: All of the principle posts have gone basically to W Europe. The south and east have been left with a few scratchings.

Image

Largarde has no experience at all of banking or finance. She's a competition lawyer. Von de Layen wasn't even on the "final" listing. She has presided as German Defence Minister over an appalling deterioration in the Bundeswehr and has been described as Germany's "worst minister". :roll: Looking on the bright side. She isn't a drunkard.
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby Lordo » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:33 pm

was largarde no working for imf? how much more experience do you need to get a finance job in the eu. these people were elected acording to eu rules which al lthe countries have agreed. no good complaining about it.

if your wishes happen we will not be in the eu for long. stop moaning. we wil have the last laugh when we are out of the eu and then start begging them to take us back less rebate. now that wil be funny especially if boris ends up doing the begging. that will be very satisfying but i fear it will not take place as boris could not poke his eyes out never mind get us out of eu. how can anybody complain about democracy in th eu when 160,000 people wil lelect the pm in the uk. you are havin a laugh aint you
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby Londonrake » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:48 pm

Lordo wrote:was largarde no working for imf? how much more experience do you need to get a finance job in the eu. these people were elected acording to eu rules which al lthe countries have agreed. no good complaining about it.

if your wishes happen we will not be in the eu for long. stop moaning. we wil have the last laugh when we are out of the eu and then start begging them to take us back less rebate. now that wil be funny especially if boris ends up doing the begging. that will be very satisfying but i fear it will not take place as boris could not poke his eyes out never mind get us out of eu. how can anybody complain about democracy in th eu when 160,000 people wil lelect the pm in the uk. you are havin a laugh aint you


No - you're missing the point. Lagarde is French! Get it? NO - they weren't "elected". It was a back office, pre-decided, Franco/German stitch up. As all the EU Council meetings tend to be. Do you really think they walk in with an agenda and blank sheet of paper? :roll: 19 of them are on the payroll FFS.

Please drop the "moaning" crap and attempts at sarcasm. You're not making it and - trust me - I can do it so much better. :wink:

I thank you for your concession to democracy. We get out and then "beg" to go back in. That would be the correct way to do it of course. Getting a vote to go back in would be a really neat trick though. Don't go holding your breath.

The "get Boris" campaign continues - unabated - albeit very crude.

If 160,000 elect a PM in the UK that's a sad reflection on all those people who can't be assed to use their vote. You don't actually have one with the EU people that count of course. Also, what does it say when 17,410,742 people vote for something, a majority of over a million, in the largest electoral event in the history of the UK and parliament plots for over 3 years to overturn it?
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:44 pm

Londonrake wrote:The recent allocation of the appointments of President of the EU Commission and head of the ECB was a travesty. It had absolutely nothing to do with democracy. It was yet another Franco/German stitch up. I read weeks ago that it had been agreed between Macron and Merkel that one would go to the French and the other to Germany, although they got it the wrong way around. It seems the EU has ended up with a French car and German cooking. :lol: All of the principle posts have gone basically to W Europe. The south and east have been left with a few scratchings.


I have already admitted that the process was far from democratically perfect. What I also admit and recognise is that NO system of democracy any where in the world is democratically perfect. I think this phenomenon even has a name - 'somebody's theory of democracy' though who's I forget. I mean the idea of 160,000 members of the Tory party get to choose who governs the UK, a country of 60 million +, as PM is hardly a shinning light of 'democratic principal' is it ? Or the idea that a minority government could or should force through a no deal Brexit by suspending Parliament. Travesty ?

Whilst your 'it was a Franco / German stitch up' is a nice bed time story for those who want to support leaving the EU in my opinion it bears little relation to reality. The reality is as far as it was a stitch up, it was a stitch up by 'Visegrad Four' group of EU members who leveraged the fact that the EU Council, given Brexit, could not be seen to fail to reach a compromise. Germany's preferred candidate was Timmermans as put forward by the EU parliament under the spitzenkandidat system and, contrary to your narrative of Franco German dominance of such things, these four small newer members were able to effectively veto that appointee, the one that was Germany's preference. The EU council (elected heads of state) has always appointed these posts behind closed doors until the appointment of Junker, who was the first (and possibly last) to be appointed under the spitzenkandidat system. Even now these compromise appointees could be vetoed by the EU parliament. So would you prefer that system , the one that lead to Junker's appointment and consider that more 'democratic'. Or perhaps you would prefer the UK system, whereby the civil service appoints the heads of the civil service, behind closed doors, with no requirement for any ratification from any democratic body and with there being no limited terms for said appointees ? As for the narrative of Franco / German stitch up, taken from the perspective of actual history, rather than the perspective of what you would like to be true, does not stack up either. EU commission presidents have to date come from Germany once, the same number of times they have come from the UK, who has been a member of the EU for less time than Germany. From France twice. From Luxemborg 3 times, belgium once, netherlands once, potrugal once. Hardly evidence of Franco German stitch up in my book.

Londonrake wrote:It's a fruitless endeavour to argue about the EU between both sides of the divide.


Whilst it may appear that I am arguing one side of Brexit, for me what I am arguing against is BS presented as 'reason' when in fact it is just 'excuse' - namely just an attempt to make out that your position is derived from 'reason' when in fact it is just a post justification attempt to support a position already decide on despite reason. It is not my fault that Brexit has provided such a rich source of such behaviour for me to argue against.
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Re: Will a Clown enter no.10 ??

Postby Londonrake » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:58 pm

Sorry Erolz. I'm not going to get into all of that. My apologies.

I'm perhaps lucky - or not - depending on your POV. To me it all seems quite straightforward and I suspect that time will ultimately be on "my" side. The genie is out of the bottle you see. And, the subject of the UK's EU membership will never, ever be the same again. Now matter how many attempts there are to make it so.

Bedtime.

All the best to you. :D
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