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Black Sea, Turkey's ambitions, and Russia

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Black Sea, Turkey's ambitions, and Russia

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:36 am

...i have thought up many scenarios where Turkey would close the Bosporus; yet in all of them they resulted with a Russian advantage over the West, (and in some cases Russia an ally), always as a result of (caused by) his actions in the Eastern Med. ((and Syria) and with all the rest of his neighbours), having isolated himself in these arenas quite explicitly to "defend" Turkey's Sovereignty.

Here it is, spelled out in this article: another "friend" (Russia) and neighbour who can easily become an adversary over something ''new'' as an issue.

https://www.mei.edu/publications/balanc ... a-and-nato

...now, in my mind, the picture of "Blue Turkey" is complete; it includes, not just supremacy of the Eastern Med. and the Aegean, but the Black Sea as well.

...it is notable i guess, i found it odd at least, that Erdogan made it a point to be very clear, that he completely supports the Ukraine against Russia on the issue of the Crimea, to the Press, when answering questions at the White House last week. And that having purchased Russian military hardware recently, (the reason for him having shot down just such hardware not so recently remaining unclear,) it does not prevent him for his incursions, in his mind to continue to buy from the West such hardware as well. It reminds me of de Gaulle, as the Leader of France, who, at the time, pointed his (French made) nuclear weapons at everyone. While in this case, it was strictly a question of non-alignment, and not Imperialistic in its nature.

Indeed, out goes the Treaty of Lausanne, should he prevail (because "we" remain disunited) not a pretty picture (for those of us not "Turkish") i'm guessing .
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Re: Black Sea, Turkey's ambitions, and Russia

Postby Lordo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:11 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:...i have thought up many scenarios where Turkey would close the Bosporus; yet in all of them they resulted with a Russian advantage over the West, (and in some cases Russia an ally), always as a result of (caused by) his actions in the Eastern Med. ((and Syria) and with all the rest of his neighbours), having isolated himself in these arenas quite explicitly to "defend" Turkey's Sovereignty.

Here it is, spelled out in this article: another "friend" (Russia) and neighbour who can easily become an adversary over something ''new'' as an issue.

https://www.mei.edu/publications/balanc ... a-and-nato

...now, in my mind, the picture of "Blue Turkey" is complete; it includes, not just supremacy of the Eastern Med. and the Aegean, but the Black Sea as well.

...it is notable i guess, i found it odd at least, that Erdogan made it a point to be very clear, that he completely supports the Ukraine against Russia on the issue of the Crimea, to the Press, when answering questions at the White House last week. And that having purchased Russian military hardware recently, (the reason for him having shot down just such hardware not so recently remaining unclear,) it does not prevent him for his incursions, in his mind to continue to buy from the West such hardware as well. It reminds me of de Gaulle, as the Leader of France, who, at the time, pointed his (French made) nuclear weapons at everyone. While in this case, it was strictly a question of non-alignment, and not Imperialistic in its nature.

Indeed, out goes the Treaty of Lausanne, should he prevail (because "we" remain disunited) not a pretty picture (for those of us not "Turkish") i'm guessing .

i don't know if you reaalise that terggy does a lot of trade with russia. terggs benefit far more from russian trade than american trade, how ever the terggs do get a fair bit of aid which they are able to trade to weapons from the usa. it all makes snese. when america stops the aid, the terggs will not be buying any more weapons from them in nato or out. add to that there is no mechanism to throw terggy out of nato even if they wnated to, the only solution is to dissolve nato and reform it. can they affort terggy out of nato? i suspect not. you don't train a guard dog to guard you and then disguard her.
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Re: Black Sea, Turkey's ambitions, and Russia

Postby Kikapu » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:01 pm

Lordo wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...i have thought up many scenarios where Turkey would close the Bosporus; yet in all of them they resulted with a Russian advantage over the West, (and in some cases Russia an ally), always as a result of (caused by) his actions in the Eastern Med. ((and Syria) and with all the rest of his neighbours), having isolated himself in these arenas quite explicitly to "defend" Turkey's Sovereignty.

Here it is, spelled out in this article: another "friend" (Russia) and neighbour who can easily become an adversary over something ''new'' as an issue.

https://www.mei.edu/publications/balanc ... a-and-nato

...now, in my mind, the picture of "Blue Turkey" is complete; it includes, not just supremacy of the Eastern Med. and the Aegean, but the Black Sea as well.

...it is notable i guess, i found it odd at least, that Erdogan made it a point to be very clear, that he completely supports the Ukraine against Russia on the issue of the Crimea, to the Press, when answering questions at the White House last week. And that having purchased Russian military hardware recently, (the reason for him having shot down just such hardware not so recently remaining unclear,) it does not prevent him for his incursions, in his mind to continue to buy from the West such hardware as well. It reminds me of de Gaulle, as the Leader of France, who, at the time, pointed his (French made) nuclear weapons at everyone. While in this case, it was strictly a question of non-alignment, and not Imperialistic in its nature.

Indeed, out goes the Treaty of Lausanne, should he prevail (because "we" remain disunited) not a pretty picture (for those of us not "Turkish") i'm guessing .

i don't know if you reaalise that terggy does a lot of trade with russia. terggs benefit far more from russian trade than american trade, how ever the terggs do get a fair bit of aid which they are able to trade to weapons from the usa. it all makes snese. when america stops the aid, the terggs will not be buying any more weapons from them in nato or out. add to that there is no mechanism to throw terggy out of nato even if they wnated to, the only solution is to dissolve nato and reform it. can they affort terggy out of nato? i suspect not. you don't train a guard dog to guard you and then disguard her.


Just how does Turkey guard NATO countries in today’s military technologies?

NATO’s main concerns were/are Soviet Union/Russia, which Turkey’s strategical location does not prevent any military conflicts between Russia and NATO countries should there would be one between them.
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Re: Black Sea, Turkey's ambitions, and Russia

Postby Lordo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:33 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Lordo wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...i have thought up many scenarios where Turkey would close the Bosporus; yet in all of them they resulted with a Russian advantage over the West, (and in some cases Russia an ally), always as a result of (caused by) his actions in the Eastern Med. ((and Syria) and with all the rest of his neighbours), having isolated himself in these arenas quite explicitly to "defend" Turkey's Sovereignty.

Here it is, spelled out in this article: another "friend" (Russia) and neighbour who can easily become an adversary over something ''new'' as an issue.

https://www.mei.edu/publications/balanc ... a-and-nato

...now, in my mind, the picture of "Blue Turkey" is complete; it includes, not just supremacy of the Eastern Med. and the Aegean, but the Black Sea as well.

...it is notable i guess, i found it odd at least, that Erdogan made it a point to be very clear, that he completely supports the Ukraine against Russia on the issue of the Crimea, to the Press, when answering questions at the White House last week. And that having purchased Russian military hardware recently, (the reason for him having shot down just such hardware not so recently remaining unclear,) it does not prevent him for his incursions, in his mind to continue to buy from the West such hardware as well. It reminds me of de Gaulle, as the Leader of France, who, at the time, pointed his (French made) nuclear weapons at everyone. While in this case, it was strictly a question of non-alignment, and not Imperialistic in its nature.

Indeed, out goes the Treaty of Lausanne, should he prevail (because "we" remain disunited) not a pretty picture (for those of us not "Turkish") i'm guessing .

i don't know if you reaalise that terggy does a lot of trade with russia. terggs benefit far more from russian trade than american trade, how ever the terggs do get a fair bit of aid which they are able to trade to weapons from the usa. it all makes snese. when america stops the aid, the terggs will not be buying any more weapons from them in nato or out. add to that there is no mechanism to throw terggy out of nato even if they wnated to, the only solution is to dissolve nato and reform it. can they affort terggy out of nato? i suspect not. you don't train a guard dog to guard you and then disguard her.


Just how does Turkey guard NATO countries in today’s military technologies?

NATO’s main concerns were/are Soviet Union/Russia, which Turkey’s strategical location does not prevent any military conflicts between Russia and NATO countries should there would be one between them.

first of all what are the chances of russia attacking nato? zero.
secondly if there was conflict between russia and nato, terggy is obliged to join in the defence of nato and i suspet the bosphorous will be closed for the duration. is that any help? I suspect not as they have more than enough weapons to blow each other 1000 times over. so what purpose does terggy serve for america today? now thats a good questions becasue terggis help was always for the americans more so than nato judging by how many bases nato has and how many the americans have.

so in reality terggy is there to serve american interests in the middle east, even allowing israel to use terggish airspace for practice. as well as a few othe rmatters like trade etc.

so til the middle east situation is resolved america will continue to prop up terggy to what ever it takes. when the oil runs out, not even god will help the israelis.
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