Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

I know your answer will be TC's are making unreasonable demands.

Correct Sure we can keep negotiating, and that is what we are actually doing, but this leads nowhere when the expectations of TCs were raised to such a high level. The TCs are the 18% of the population and yet they expect 29+% of land, 50% of coast line, essentially 50% of power share etc. Turkey has raised your expectations to such a degree to ensure there is no solution. TCs could have a very favorable solution to them tomorrow if they wanted. It would be a win-win agreement, but bigger win for the TCs. But by asking for so much your side makes an agreement impossible, which means loss-loss, but bigger loss for the TCs.

Your leader has no more power than a Mayor. He is there just to take care the minor internal issues, but when it comes to making choices about the solution he is not authorized to do anything at all without the agreement of Turkey. And obviously Turkey will not authorize any solution that serves GC and TC interests and not her own.

[Maximus]

Look at South Africa and their problems of the past? Their past history is far more disturbing than ours and yet they have reconciled. Why can't our negotiators make such progress and bring it to a stage where we could then form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission and bring this mess into a conclusion?

I know your answer will be TC's are making unreasonable demands. That's how negotiations go, keep negotiating, keep counter demanding, don't walk away from these negotiations but unfortunately your politicians keep doing just that. Similar to me walking away from this debate but the fate of the country is in their hands not mine and they have a responsibility.

Thats a great example,

In South Africa, you had a minority of whites trying to imposing an apartheid on the blacks. They reconciled and accepted a democracy.

In Cyprus, we have a minority trying to impose an apartheid on the the rest of the population. through colonization and occupation with a third party country. They wont reconcile their position and accept a democracy. But continue to make unacceptable demands and want to keep the apartheid structures and occupation going.

This is the difference.

I know you cant or wont see this but you give the examples and then we look at them in a like for like fashion.

Great examples but you (and your side) have cognitive dissonance when someone points the facts out to you as per the correct way to look at it.

As long as your side is ever in denial, nothing will ever be concluded.

Your side wants to continue these injustices in Cyprus to try and benefit. Then put on a charade of reconciliation while playing the victim. It's madness.

[MR-from-NG]

Look at South Africa and their problems of the past? Their past history is far more disturbing than ours and yet they have reconciled. Why can't our negotiators make such progress and bring it to a stage where we could then form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission and bring this mess into a conclusion?

I know your answer will be TC's are making unreasonable demands. That's how negotiations go, keep negotiating, keep counter demanding, don't walk away from these negotiations but unfortunately your politicians keep doing just that. Similar to me walking away from this debate but the fate of the country is in their hands not mine and they have a responsibility.

Thats a great example,

In South Africa, you had a minority of whites trying to imposing an apartheid on the blacks. They reconciled and accepted a democracy.

In Cyprus, we have a minority trying to impose an apartheid on the the rest of the population. through colonization and occupation with a third party country. They wont reconcile their position and accept a democracy. But continue to make unacceptable demands and wont to keep the apartheid structures and occupation going.

This is the difference.

I know you cant or wont see this but you give the examples and then we look at them in a like for like fashion.

Great examples but you have cognitive dissonance..

As long as your side is ever in denial, nothing will ever be concluded.

Come on guys. I seriosly want to end this discussion but again, i'm compelled to make one last post. Yes, the whites were a minority in SA but they discriminated and treated the majority with total contempt. Now, our situation is the total opposite. We are the minority and for as long as I've known we have been discriminated against and treated with contempt. There really is a huge difference with the two.

As for our demands? RTE won't be in power much longer. Keep negotiating, stop walking away from them.

Cyprusgrump is a ****

[Maximus]

I disagree with you Mr-NG.

You have it ass backwards and lack real introspection.

This is "your sides" projections....from being brainwashed by the mosque and the Turkish education system.

[Sotos]

Yes, the whites were a minority in SA but they discriminated and treated the majority with total contempt. Now, our situation is the total opposite. We are the minority and for as long as I've known we have been discriminated against and treated with contempt.

You are the ones who have ALWAYS imposed discrimination.

From 1571 until 1878 that Turks ruled Cyprus, Greek Cypriots were treated as second category people paying far higher taxes and having much fewer rights.

Then just 80 years later you were demanding partition and our ethnic cleansing to achieve complete segregation, and you "settled" on a system which discriminated Cypriots based on their ethnicity, just so you will again have way more than your fair share on our expense. And the same is true today: You are the ones who continue to insist on forceful segregation and discrimination of Cypriots based on their ethnicity.

Tell me even a single time that you accepted democracy and equality of all Cypriots without discrimination. One person one vote, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. You NEVER accepted this.

[Lordo]

Yes, the whites were a minority in SA but they discriminated and treated the majority with total contempt. Now, our situation is the total opposite. We are the minority and for as long as I've known we have been discriminated against and treated with contempt.

You are the ones who have ALWAYS imposed discrimination.

From 1571 until 1878 that Turks ruled Cyprus, Greek Cypriots were treated as second category people paying far higher taxes and having much fewer rights.

Then just 80 years later you were demanding partition and our ethnic cleansing to achieve complete segregation, and you "settled" on a system which discriminated Cypriots based on their ethnicity, just so you will again have way more than your fair share on our expense. And the same is true today: You are the ones who continue to insist on forceful segregation and discrimination of Cypriots based on their ethnicity.

Tell me even a single time that you accepted democracy and equality of all Cypriots without discrimination. One person one vote, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. You NEVER accepted this.

now perhaps you can enlighten us what life was like in cyprus before the osmanli arrived. that may explain why you was so pleased to see them. for instannce did they own any land?

as to in 1960. you may not be aware of this but most of the osmanlis reterned to terggyn after 1924 so what was left was natives who were terggish cypriots by this point. so you signed an agreement to share power and 3 years later you started your genocidal warpath to drive the terggish cypriots into the sea. papadopoullos told the americans that when they see the terggish ships on the horizon it will take them 45 minutes to land and in 45 minutes there will be no terggish cypriots left in cyprus to rescue. no this is a fact confirmed by clerides as he caught the swine on the telephone calling his henchment and prepare of action. only after clerides convinced him that it would not look good in the eyes of the international community for roc to kill all women and children did he call his henchmen to cancel the order. how ever the plan was in place and that is the plan they started implementing as soon as they saw the ships in 74. of course having left thousands behind the lines they would not dare kill all, but of course they did kill all their captives in the four villages. what bravekcunts you boys are. killing inocent unarmed civilans including a 16 day old baby must be speciality of yours and of course ripping some of the males hearts out and then trying to burn them is also one of your speciality.

[Paphitis]

Yes, the whites were a minority in SA but they discriminated and treated the majority with total contempt. Now, our situation is the total opposite. We are the minority and for as long as I've known we have been discriminated against and treated with contempt.

You are the ones who have ALWAYS imposed discrimination.

From 1571 until 1878 that Turks ruled Cyprus, Greek Cypriots were treated as second category people paying far higher taxes and having much fewer rights.

Then just 80 years later you were demanding partition and our ethnic cleansing to achieve complete segregation, and you "settled" on a system which discriminated Cypriots based on their ethnicity, just so you will again have way more than your fair share on our expense. And the same is true today: You are the ones who continue to insist on forceful segregation and discrimination of Cypriots based on their ethnicity.

Tell me even a single time that you accepted democracy and equality of all Cypriots without discrimination. One person one vote, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. You NEVER accepted this.

now perhaps you can enlighten us what life was like in cyprus before the osmanli arrived. that may explain why you was so pleased to see them. for instannce did they own any land?

as to in 1960. you may not be aware of this but most of the osmanlis reterned to terggyn after 1924 so what was left was natives who were terggish cypriots by this point. so you signed an agreement to share power and 3 years later you started your genocidal warpath to drive the terggish cypriots into the sea. papadopoullos told the americans that when they see the terggish ships on the horizon it will take them 45 minutes to land and in 45 minutes there will be no terggish cypriots left in cyprus to rescue. no this is a fact confirmed by clerides as he caught the swine on the telephone calling his henchment and prepare of action. only after clerides convinced him that it would not look good in the eyes of the international community for roc to kill all women and children did he call his henchmen to cancel the order. how ever the plan was in place and that is the plan they started implementing as soon as they saw the ships in 74. of course having left thousands behind the lines they would not dare kill all, but of course they did kill all their captives in the four villages. what bravekcunts you boys are. killing inocent unarmed civilans including a 16 day old baby must be speciality of yours and of course ripping some of the males hearts out and then trying to burn them is also one of your speciality.

You have lost the plot!

There was never an intent to kill all TC women and children. You are quite the propagandist Lordo.

If the GCs wanted to kill you all, they would have done it but they didn't even try.

[repulsewarrior]

I know your answer will be TC's are making unreasonable demands.

Correct Sure we can keep negotiating, and that is what we are actually doing, but this leads nowhere when the expectations of TCs were raised to such a high level. The TCs are the 18% of the population and yet they expect 29+% of land, 50% of coast line, essentially 50% of power share etc. Turkey has raised your expectations to such a degree to ensure there is no solution. TCs could have a very favorable solution to them tomorrow if they wanted. It would be a win-win agreement, but bigger win for the TCs. But by asking for so much your side makes an agreement impossible, which means loss-loss, but bigger loss for the TCs.

Your leader has no more power than a Mayor. He is there just to take care the minor internal issues, but when it comes to making choices about the solution he is not authorized to do anything at all without the agreement of Turkey. And obviously Turkey will not authorize any solution that serves GC and TC interests and not her own.

The real issue is "Turkishness", how far it goes. And without Cypriots who are Turkish, willing to demonstrate under the Flag of Cyprus, for Cyprus, they remain a subjugated people, (those not "Turkish" in Cyprus and in Turkey,) Turkish perhaps, but not "Turks", as such their "servant-slaves".

It is a hard choice to make, now that Turkey is being torn apart by "Turkishness", in Cyprus. But for Turks, like those in Cyprus, who see themselves as Turkish, and something more as Human beings, "Turkishness" is a bane which they must no longer resist staying silent.

Who treats the Flag of Cyprus as a rag, i will ask again. Something to think about.

[Sotos]

Yes, the whites were a minority in SA but they discriminated and treated the majority with total contempt. Now, our situation is the total opposite. We are the minority and for as long as I've known we have been discriminated against and treated with contempt.

You are the ones who have ALWAYS imposed discrimination.

From 1571 until 1878 that Turks ruled Cyprus, Greek Cypriots were treated as second category people paying far higher taxes and having much fewer rights.

Then just 80 years later you were demanding partition and our ethnic cleansing to achieve complete segregation, and you "settled" on a system which discriminated Cypriots based on their ethnicity, just so you will again have way more than your fair share on our expense. And the same is true today: You are the ones who continue to insist on forceful segregation and discrimination of Cypriots based on their ethnicity.

Tell me even a single time that you accepted democracy and equality of all Cypriots without discrimination. One person one vote, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. You NEVER accepted this.

now perhaps you can enlighten us what life was like in cyprus before the osmanli arrived. that may explain why you was so pleased to see them. for instannce did they own any land?

as to in 1960. you may not be aware of this but most of the osmanlis reterned to terggyn after 1924 so what was left was natives who were terggish cypriots by this point. so you signed an agreement to share power and 3 years later you started your genocidal warpath to drive the terggish cypriots into the sea. papadopoullos told the americans that when they see the terggish ships on the horizon it will take them 45 minutes to land and in 45 minutes there will be no terggish cypriots left in cyprus to rescue. no this is a fact confirmed by clerides as he caught the swine on the telephone calling his henchment and prepare of action. only after clerides convinced him that it would not look good in the eyes of the international community for roc to kill all women and children did he call his henchmen to cancel the order. how ever the plan was in place and that is the plan they started implementing as soon as they saw the ships in 74. of course having left thousands behind the lines they would not dare kill all, but of course they did kill all their captives in the four villages. what bravekcunts you boys are. killing inocent unarmed civilans including a 16 day old baby must be speciality of yours and of course ripping some of the males hearts out and then trying to burn them is also one of your speciality.

The ones who committed not one but multiple genocides of millions are the Turks, not us.

You made a whole fairy tale about "an order" and "canceling the order" and all the other bullshit. There was never a genocide against TCs. In 1974 YOU started the war and YOU killed way more innocent unarmed civilians, including women and children (and rapes of under age girls). The comparatively much fewer civilian casualties that you had in those four villages (just over 100) came only after you have been been killing 1000s of Greek Cypriots for a month. The Turks started their invasion, the killings, the rapes, the ethnic cleaning and all the other atrocities from the 20th of July, the events in those villages came on the 14th of August, after the Turks started their second phase of the invasion to kill even more Greek Cypriots.

As far as being pleased to see the Ottomans, this is yet another bullshit that is fed to you by your propaganda. The Venetians were also foreign rulers but nowhere as bad as the Ottomans. Here is what the Ottomans did to Cyprus:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

Compare Cyprus with Corfu, a Greek island in Venetian possession which never fell into the hands of the Ottomans (even though the Ottomans tried to occupy it several time). Corfu is today a peaceful Greek island. It didn't suffer the atrocities of the Turks, and the Greeks survived just fine under Venetian rule, unlike the genocides they suffered under the Ottomans who stole from the Greeks the western and northern coastal areas of Anatolia which had been Greek for 1000s of years.

The example of Corfu and a comparison with Cyprus shows that we would have been WAY better of if Cyprus had remained under the Venetians.

[Sotos]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu#Venetian_rule

From medieval times and into the 17th century, the island was recognised as a bulwark of the European States against the Ottoman Empire and became one of the most fortified places in Europe.[8] The fortifications of the island were used by the Venetians to defend against Ottoman intrusion into the Adriatic. Corfu repulsed several Ottoman sieges, before passing under British rule following the Napoleonic Wars.[45][46][47][48][49][50][51]

Kerkyra, the "Door of Venice" during the centuries when the whole Adriatic was the Gulf of Venice,[52] remained in Venetian hands from 1401 until 1797, though several times assailed by Ottoman naval and land forces[16] and subjected to four notable sieges in 1537, 1571, 1573 and 1716, in which the strength of the city defences asserted itself time after time. The effectiveness of the powerful Venetian fortifications as well as the strength of some old Byzantine castles in Angelokastro, Kassiopi Castle, Gardiki and elsewhere, were additional factors that enabled Corfu to remain free. Will Durant claimed that Corfu owed to the Republic of Venice the fact that it was one of the few parts of Greece never conquered by the Ottomans.[53]

A series of attempts by the Ottomans to take the island began in 1431 when Ottoman troops under Ali Bey landed on the island. The Ottomans tried to take the city castle and raided the surrounding area, but were repulsed.[54]

The Siege of Corfu (1537) was the first great siege by the Ottomans. It began on 29 August 1537, with 25,000 soldiers from the Ottoman fleet landing and pillaging the island and taking 20,000 hostages as slaves. Despite the destruction wrought on the countryside, the city castle held out in spite of repeated attempts over twelve days to take it, and the Turks left the island unsuccessfully because of poor logistics and an epidemic that decimated their ranks.[54]

Thirty-four years later, in August 1571, Ottoman forces returned for yet another attempt to conquer the island. Having seized Parga and Mourtos from the Greek mainland side, they attacked the Paxi islands. Subsequently they landed on Corfu's southeast shore and established a large beachhead all the way from the southern tip of the island at Lefkimi to Ipsos in Corfu's eastern midsection. These areas were thoroughly pillaged as in past encounters. Nevertheless the city castle stood firm again, a testament to Corfiot-Venetian steadfastness as well as the Venetian castle-building engineering skills. Another castle, Angelokastro, situated on the northwest coast near Palaiokastritsa (Greek: Παλαιοκαστρίτσα meaning Old Castle place) and located on particularly steep and rocky terrain, also held out. The castle is a tourist attraction today.[54]

These defeats in the east and the west of the island proved decisive, and the Ottomans abandoned their siege and departed. Two years later they repeated their attempt. Coming from Africa after a victorious campaign, they landed in Corfu and wreaked havoc on rural areas. Following a counterattack by the Venetian-Corfiot forces, the Ottoman troops were forced to leave the city sailing away.[54]


Outer perimeter of the Gardiki Castle which provided defence to the southern part of the island.
The second great siege of Corfu took place in 1716, during the last Ottoman–Venetian War (1714–18). After the conquest of the Peloponnese in 1715, the Ottoman fleet appeared in Buthrotum opposite Corfu. On 8 July the Ottoman fleet, carrying 33,000 men, sailed to Corfu from Buthrotum and established a beachhead at Ipsos.[54] The same day, the Venetian fleet encountered the Ottoman fleet off the Corfu Channel and defeated it in the ensuing naval battle. On 19 July, after taking a few outlying forts, the Ottoman army reached the hills around the city of Corfu and laid siege to it. Despite repeated assaults and heavy fighting, the Ottomans were unable to breach the defences and were forced to raise the siege after 22 days. The 5,000 Venetians and foreign mercenaries, together with 3,000 Corfiotes, under the leadership of Count von der Schulenburg who commanded the defence of the island, were victorious once more.[7][54][55] The success was owed in no small part to the extensive fortifications, where Venetian castle engineering had proven itself once again against considerable odds. The repulse of the Ottomans was widely celebrated in Europe, Corfu being seen as a bastion of Western civilization against the Ottoman tide.[45][56] Today, however, this role is often relatively unknown or ignored, but was celebrated in Juditha triumphans by the Venetian composer Antonio Vivaldi.

Corfu's urban architecture differs from that of other major Greek cities, because of Corfu's unique history. From 1386 to 1797, Corfu was ruled by Venetian nobility; much of the city reflects this era when the island belonged to the Republic of Venice, with multi-storied buildings on narrow lanes. The Old Town of Corfu has clear Venetian influence and is amongst the World Heritage Sites in Greece. It was in the Venetian period that the city saw the erection of the first opera house (Nobile Teatro di San Giacomo di Corfù) in Greece.

Many Venetian-speaking families settled in Corfu during these centuries; they were called Corfiot Italians, and until the second half of the 20th century the Veneto da mar was spoken in Corfu. During this time, the local Greek language assimilated a large number of Italian and Venetian words, many of which are still common today. The internationally renowned Venetian-born British photographer Felice Beato (1832–1909) is thought to have spent much of his childhood in Corfu. Also many Italian Jews took refuge in Corfu during the Venetian centuries and spoke their own language (Italkian), a mixture of Hebrew-Italian in a Venetian or Apulian dialect with some Greek words.

Venetians promoted the Catholic Church during their four centuries of rule in Corfu. Today the majority of Corfiots are Greek Orthodox, but the small Catholic minority (5%), living harmoniously with the Orthodox community, owes its faith to these origins. These contemporary Catholics are mostly families who came from Malta, but also from Italy, and today the Catholic community numbers about 4,000 (​2⁄3 of Maltese descent), who live almost exclusively in the Venetian "Citadel" of Corfu City. Like other native Greek Catholics, they celebrate Easter using the same calendar as the Greek Orthodox church. The Cathedral of St. James and St. Christopher in Corfu City is the see of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Corfu, Zakynthos and Cephalonia.

The island served also as a refuge for Greek scholars, and in 1732, it became the home of the first academy of modern Greece.[16] A Corfu cleric and scholar, Nikephoros Theotokis (1732–1800) became renowned in Greece as an educator, and in Russia (where he moved later in his life) as an Orthodox archbishop.

The island's culture absorbed Venetian influence in a variety of ways; like other Ionian islands (see Cuisine of the Ionian islands), its local cuisine took in such elements and today's Corfiot cooking includes Venetian delicacies and recipes: "Pastitsada", deriving from the Venetian "Pastissada" (Italian: "Spezzatino") and the most popular dish in the island of Corfu, "Sofrito", "Strapatsada", "Savoro", "Bianco" and "Mandolato".