Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

When I was working for someone he was busting my balls at every meeting to give him new ideas. He was doing that to everybody. I did give him the best ideas I had. Let's do this, let's do that... I remember with great disappointment how he was turning everything down, saying this is nonsense the other won't work etc.
I left and applied my own ideas!! Not all proved great but some did.

[Lordo]

When I was working for someone he was busting my balls at every meeting to give him new ideas. He was doing that to everybody. I did give him the best ideas I had. Let's do this, let's do that... I remember with great disappointment how he was turning everything down, saying this is nonsense the other won't work etc.
I left and applied my own ideas!! Not all proved great but some did.

You only need one to work to start you off. The rest will come. There is nothing like owning your own business.

[Pyrpolizer]

Absolutely agree.
But first there is a more immidiate problem. Paying people at the bottom wages they cannot live on so they depend on government or church or other entity handouts to make ends meet. SOme times even resort to stealing food from supermarkets.

By all means sort out the taxation so people pay the taxes they are supposed to pay. I have no problem a person setting up an enterprize and making a million or more but not by paying starvation wages to workers.

Interesting film just watched.Laundromat. Very confusing at times but then the subject they took on was very confusing too. Interesting comment at the end which is revealing.

in the United states in 2018, 60 companies paid no tax with a pre-tax income of 79 Billion dollars. This surely is crime against humanity because it is this crime that prevents money reaching the people via investment on inferstructure scociety needs to function.

One step at a time. The way I imagine it is that there won't be firms paying slave salaries in the long run.
These companies exist (and the Govnts want them to exist) to absorb half of the cost of feeding the poor. The system for the moment is wrong. It has to change so that the wealth won't end up to the hands of the few for eternity. Most of the rich today just inherited their wealth. Especially in UK this originates from the age of feudalism - look at the royals...

[Lordo]

Not just the royals but all the lords and the dukes etc. But we have new rich now, the oil men of Middle East, the oligarchi of the Russians, the internet billioaires mobile phone billionaires. They have all built their wealth either on peoples' labour or stealing from them in some way.

But if the MacDonalds of tis world and the Dan Prices of this world will show the poeple it can be done and soon they will do it out of need because people who have a choice will not work for them and those that do will move on at the first opporotunity.

[Maximus]

Anyway, lets turn to a real problem.

How does this buying shares and selling them to make a profit or buying money and selling it to make a profit help with production or service a company has to offer. I am not talking about a few hundred pounds worth, I am talking millions of pounds worth. Where does the the gambling of other peoples investment in futures help the economy in terms of production or service. I mean to be allowed to sell something you do not have surely is fraud. How is this legal?
How do pyramid selling fit into all this?

Is this not a prime example of blood suckers living off somebody elses effort.

Companies sell shares to raise capital so they can invest and grow the company. People buy shares in companies, to help it grow and succeed and to have a stake in its performance.

How you have come to the conclusion that this is blood sucking, living off someone else's effort is beyond me.

You are such a lightweight.
You think you know it all
But all you know is fuck all.

I am talking about buying and selling shares and money every day, I am talking about selling shares people do not have and betting on currency of a country to rise or fall and make a kiling at the expense of people suffering for their action.

Dummy in and off to sleep boy.
But this time make sure it is in the right hole you hear.

Maybe they worked out that working is a mugs game.

Why wouldn't you want to buy or sell a product that everyone wants and needs and make a killing out of it.

Thats what most people want.

[Lordo]

Why would you want to make a killing. Making a killing goes with not paying people that do the work their worth and grabbing their share too.

But that is a very interesting concept about why sell shares. I am with you on that one. So I set up a company, I need to expand so borowing may be too expensive so I issue shares to raise the capital for expanding and so on. All good so far but is it where it ends or is it where it starts.

You can buy shares in a company anytime. You can sell shares any time. So you can make a killing buying at the right time and selling at the right time. You can also make a killing selling at the right time shares you do not have hoping that the price goes down and buying later to complete a deal and make a killing too. So in effect you are gambling.

So how does this help the company? In fact this can hurt the company quite a bit. If individuals sell millions of shares they do not have of a company, the share price can drop which leaves them open to be taken over by leveraging or even still worse by an asset stripping company because the value of the company on paper drops below the actual value of the company. So the workers of the company can find themselves out of work and the boss out of pocket.

So how does selling shares help the company again?

[Maximus]

You dont sell shares you don't have!

You borrow them from someone that does have them. Then you sell them at the higher price to someone else expecting to buy them back at a lower price.

Then you return the shares to the person that lent them to you and the difference is your profit. People would only do this if they perceive the company to be relatively over valued and people are willing to buy.

In both buy cases, the money is made available to the company. The person that originally lent them to you gets his shares back and someone else has become a shareholder, albeit at a more expensive price.

The company may have a lower market cap at this point but if the share price reflects that the company is undervalued, then people will find value in that and buy the shares cheaper. Which raises more money for the company.

The guy in the middle, doing the buying and selling is taking risk, providing liquidity and is helping to facilitating a more stable and fair market. People buy items cheaper from one place and sell them more expensive somewhere else all the time. If you dont know what you are doing, you can lose money, but who's fault is that?

There is always risk, in business or investing but the stock market and capitalism allows your average person to become part owner in business that they would never think about or even be capable of starting up. Investing in stocks and shares of companies is a vehicle that can potentially create wealth for the average person.

How is this bad again?

[Lordo]

You dont sell shares you don't have!

You borrow them from someone that does have them. Then you sell them at the higher price to someone else expecting to buy them back at a lower price.

Then you return the shares to the person that lent them to you and the difference is your profit. People would only do this if they perceive the company to be relatively over valued and people are willing to buy.

In both buy cases, the money is made available to the company. The person that originally lent them to you gets his shares back and someone else has become a shareholder, albeit at a more expensive price.

The company may have a lower market cap at this point but if the share price reflects that the company is undervalued, then people will find value in that and buy the shares cheaper. Which raises more money for the company.

The guy in the middle, doing the buying and selling is taking risk, providing liquidity and is helping to facilitating a more stable and fair market. People buy items cheaper from one place and sell them more expensive somewhere else all the time. If you dont know what you are doing, you can lose money, but who's fault is that?

There is always risk, in business or investing but the stock market and capitalism allows your average person to become part owner in business that they would never think about or even be capable of starting up. Investing in stocks and shares of companies is a vehicle that can potentially create wealth for the average person.

How is this bad again?

The point is they don't own the shares. So how does this type of selling help the company? Or even buying the shares hoping that the price will go up and then selling. Did you not say the company sells shares to raise money to expand? Not one cent goes the the company itself.
The seller and the broker make the money. This is what a call a parasite. The serve no useful purpose for the company owner or the workers.

What about asset stripping? How can a wealthy person be allowed to destroy a company and put people out of work?

[Maximus]

Not exactly Bordo,

If I borrow your shares and sell them to someone else. I would need to go to the market and buy them again (money goes to the company here) to give the shares back to you.

Now you might ask what purpose I serve?

Well, you did not want to sell the shares otherwise you would have done that yourself. But you agreed to lend them to me (with interest payments) because I saw an opportunity. So did someone else see an opportunity, they wanted to buy shares but the shareholders, like yourself, didn't offer any supply. The float of shares is fixed, unless the company issues more shares or does a stock split. So how can he buy?

This is where I come in, I have a "job"!

I help to make the market, so a buyer gets his shares, you get your interest payments and the shares back, and the company gets some more capital and maybe, I made some money as well.

We are not talking about asset stripping here, that is a different thing entirely.

[Lordo]

You are being deliberately obtuse. Most of the share dealings whether it is long or short has nothing to do with the company. This activity is between two indivduals. The company gets bugger all out of it. Unless the share price goes up and even then the company gets bugger all out of it unless they sell some shares/

What do you mean asset stripping has nothing to do with it. How the hell does a wealthy man buy a company for asset stripping other than selling short in a big way then buying the shares at a much lower value which makes the company ready for asset stripping. So now that the shares are dropped anybody can buy the shares and start asset stripping. How the fuck else does asset stripping take place if it involves no buying shares at deflated prices.