Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

In the TRNC we have our own flag and play turkeys national anthem, so we are no better than anyone else.

Yes but we don't claim to be legal Republic of Cyprus representing the whole island.

Well damn it, we don't want it to happen to our Federation, do we?We want our Federation to have one flag and one National anthem for both the Central State and the Fed States. Why not?

I have no problem with 3 flags as long as the federal flag always comes earlier than the 2 state flags, just like America. In America every state has its own flag but you hardly see them. State flags in the US have minimal meaning and influence compared to the US flag.

Of course, the best situation would be one flag for Cyprus. It's a small island and I don't think we need 3 flags, 3 national anthems for such a small place.

Either way is fine with me...I see these as small details that we shouldn't get stuck with.

[BigDutch]

As an outsider it is painful to see so much talk of "re-unification" but aside from the vote in the referendum - its painfully obvious that there doesn't appear to be much "CYPRIOT" spirit in Cyprus or a real "want" to be Cypriot.

I have upset my wife and her family a number of times by saying "NO, you are NOT Greek, you are Cypriot". I have seen the flags of Greece in as many places as the flag of RoC, when looking North from Nicosia or from Dherinia (sp?) i see only flags of Turkey or a flag very similar to Turkeys flag .......... but no RoC flags at all.

The only way for your country to break-down barriers is to positively educate the kids that they are "Cypriot" make them learn Turkish and Greek, make them learn of the two religions (postively), make them learn a history of the island that both "sides" accept. Make all kids in Cyprus feel postive about their home land let them forget the motherland(s).

I would hope that if the kids don't have such a mental wall put between them that physically obstacles will be so much easier to over come.

[MicAtCyp]

Your side claims to represent the whole island, your side claims to be legal and your side gets all the benefits of the RC. You can't make all these claims, ask TCs to go back to the RC and then not say anything about the Greek national anthem.

You have to clarify in your mind what the Cyprus Republic is. It is not the GC community it is not the TC community. It is over and above those two. If one of the two left, it is not the responsibility of the other community to bring them back. In the end what happened is that the Cyprus Republic is represented (and thus run) by only one community and in this respect nobody can accuse the GCs of representing the TCs. What is representing them is the RoC and not the GC community. And you can see that from the fact that you can get passports, be EU citizens, and maintain ownership of your properties. You can see this from the promises of EU to help the TCs economically. If the EU did not consider the TCs as part of the Cyprus Republic they would never get such support!

What the world recognises as the only legal government in Cyprus is the RoC and not what you call GC administration. And beleive me, there is no power on earth that can stop the TCs from claiming all their constitutional rights and returning to the RoC. The reason they don't do it, is because their leaders are puppets of Ankara, and follow other directions.

Show TCs that the RC is indeed a bicommunal republic. Give TCs reasons to believe in RC, and then ask for TCs to return back.

I already answered to that. But lets assume we (the GCs) should proceed this way. How could this be done under the current circumstances, without an agreed solution? People are not angels. TCs will do everything to profit from both - as citizens of the RoC and as citizens of the occupational regime. For example they will sell the GC properties they hold illegally in the north, then come to the south sell their properties too, then return to the north and with all that money live like kings. Even Denktash advised his nephew to get a RoC passport so as to benefit from both, the RoC and the occupation.

[MicAtCyp]

In America every state has its own flag but you hardly see them. State flags in the US have minimal meaning and influence compared to the US flag.

Be sure however that here in Cyprus - in case of a Federal solution - it will be exactly the opposite. If we have separate Fedstates flags it will be hard to see the Central state flag other than on few buildings (those of the Central state) . Besides the Fed States in Cyprus will be more or less ethnic, which is not the case in the US. That's why I personally insist on one flag and one anthem for both the Fed states and the Central one.

[Piratis]

It's very easy to blame others, isn't it?

Should whom I blame for not letting Cypriots decide in a democratic way for what they want? Why they didn't make referendum in 1960 with all alternative options so Cypriots could decide what they want? Since they didn't let us decide for our own future I will blame them, and I am perfectly justified to do so.

Now I don't know what the "super privileges" of TCs or the British bases have anything to do with the Greek national anthem being played with the Cyprus flag.

The point is that you only want to change what you don't like. I am perfectly fine with the Greek national anthem, but because I understand that it can bother you, and having the anthem of another country is not something "normal", I agree with you that it has to change.
So all I am saying is that in the agreements of 1960 there were many incorrect things including the Greek national anthem. So if we want to have something better, shouldn't we remove all incorrect things? Don't you think it is selfish when you say that only the things that bother the TCs should change?

There is a saying that it seems to me the TCs are telling us all the time: "Yours ours, and ours ours" (I don't know if it makes sense in English)

[brother]

Firstly many like myself only accept themselves as cypriot and i also agree with bigdutch that the education system needs some tweeking with soas the children grow up with an identity which is cypriot.

[metecyp]

If one of the two left, it is not the responsibility of the other community to bring them back. In the end what happened is that the Cyprus Republic is represented (and thus run) by only one community and in this respect nobody can accuse the GCs of representing the TCs.

Nobody said GCs are obliged to bring TCs back to the RC. That's not the responsibility of GCs but "making sure what is left of the RC is as close as it can get to the RC on the paper" is GC responsibility because GCs claim that the RC exists and they claim to be present in the RC.

If the RC exists and if the GCs are present in the RC, then GCs *cannot* use the nonexistance of TCs as an excuse to do whatever they like such as using Greek national anthem with the RC flag. This has been happenning for a long time and it's wrong. You may say "Why don't you come back and claim your rights in the RC" and you're right but even if TCs don't choose to do so, that doesn't give an excuse to GCs to treat the Republic of Cyprus as the Hellenic Republic of Cyprus. If you claim to be legal, then you have to act legal. You can't claim to be legal and not act legal at the same time.

If, for example, tomorrow I read in the newspapers that the RC declares the use of Greek national anthem being not suitable for the bicommunal nature of the republic and that there is going to have a song competition to have a bicommunal national anthem for Cyprus, I would be quite impressed. Don't you think this is much better than having the Greek national anthem as if Cyprus is a Greek island?

And beleive me, there is no power on earth that can stop the TCs from claiming all their constitutional rights and returning to the RoC. The reason they don't do it, is because their leaders are puppets of Ankara, and follow other directions.

I'm going to be honest with you. What you said has some truth in it but it's not the whole truth. There are many TCs that will be more willing and assertive to return back to the RC (or at least some federated form of it) if they are given the right message from the Republic of Cyprus.

People are not angels. TCs will do everything to profit from both - as citizens of the RoC and as citizens of the occupational regime. For example they will sell the GC properties they hold illegally in the north, then come to the south sell their properties too, then return to the north and with all that money live like kings.

So you're saying that since TCs don't revolt against the occupation, the RC cannot exist as it is supposed to be and it will stay like a Hellenic Cyprus Republic until a solution is found. I'm not denying that there are TCs who play double sided in order to maximize their profits. But I don't agree that keeping the RC as a Hellenic Republic is ever going to help for a solution.

[MicAtCyp]

The only way for your country to break-down barriers is to positively educate the kids that they are "Cypriot" make them learn Turkish and Greek, make them learn of the two religions (postively), make them learn a history of the island that both "sides" accept. Make all kids in Cyprus feel postive about their home land let them forget the motherland(s).

You are absolutely right BigDutch. I also think it's a matter of Education.Presently all our education comes from Greece and Turkey. Almost all the books that relate to "national consciousness" come from the motherlands. Some people say those books built hate. I insist they don't. What they actually do is different.
Last year I was helping my daughter at her history exams.I went through the chapter concerning the education at Sparta.You know the extremely tough military education of the kids from the age of 7 up to their 30 at the ancient city of Sparta. The result of that education was to built a small but practically unbeatable army.(the Lacedemonian army).The narration of the book was so fascinating and absorbing, that I felt the same way we all feel when watching a movie by identifying ourselves with the hero.
So such an education is an indirect way for building nationalism in my opinion.

The question is what should we do in Cyprus?Forget about our Greek and Turkish roots and start building a Cypriot nationalism? If yes then "whats the scenario of the movie that will make us identify with the Cypriot hero?" Does it exist?

[metecyp]

I am perfectly fine with the Greek national anthem

That's exactly the problem and it's not just you but the GC community in general is fine with the Greek national anthem. That's what bothers me most. If you truly believe that you're a citizen of bicommunal republic, how can you be fine with the Greek national anthem? The only explanation is that you don't consider the RC as a bicommunal republic, you're used to its being just a GC republic.

So all I am saying is that in the agreements of 1960 there were many incorrect things including the Greek national anthem. So if we want to have something better, shouldn't we remove all incorrect things?

First of all, I don't believe that there ever was an *agreed* settlement between the TC and GCs about using the Greek national anthem as the national anthem of Cyprus. Secondly, if you really believe that there are many incorrect things in the Republic of Cyprus, then why do you insist that it exists? Do you think that the RC exists because of TCs not being present in it?

Besides, what's so incorrect in the RC? You mean the veto power of the TCs or 30% representation? Do you really believe that you can compare these with the issue of Greek national anthem? It probably does not make too much difference in practice if 30% represention of TCs was dropped to, say 25% but it makes a *huge* difference that the national anthem of the Republic of Cyprus is the Greek national anthem.

Don't you think it is selfish when you say that only the things that bother the TCs should change?

What's selfish is the following. Your side claims that the RC exists, then your side takes ignorant decisions ignoring the TC community all together (eg. Greek national anthem) and then your side expects TCs to believe and trust in the RC and when naturally TCs don't believe in the RC, they get blamed for the persistence of the occupation.

[metecyp]

The question is what should we do in Cyprus?Forget about our Greek and Turkish roots and start building a Cypriot nationalism? If yes then "whats the scenario of the movie that will make us identify with the Cypriot hero?" Does it exist?

You don't need a movie to feel Cypriot. Just remove the word "barbarian" infront of every "Turk" in history books, provide more balanced account of the incidents so students can have a chance to consider that Turks/TCs are human-beings rather than some monster.

I think the best way to solve this problem is the following. Historians from both sides come together and they write a book on the history of Cyprus from *independent* sources. That is they use sources that are neither Greek or Turkish. Then this book is used to educate kids on both sides of the island.