Oh dear.
I think saravakos miss understood what I was trying to say in my post (page 2). What I meant but probably didn't put across very well (admittedly) was America THIS TIME will go the diplomatic route (which every one should). The Bush administration can't afford to go against public opinion if they want to win the next elections. He made one mother of a mistake last time with Iraq, invading under false pretenses and lets not fool ourselves, all he wanted to do was finish off what George Bush Snr started. If he goes up against Iran (which he will do once all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted), then he'll want to make sure the rest of the Western World is 100% behind him plus Russia and China because as they say in America "This will be no walk in the park". We'll have nearly every Muslim state in the world against us. And it will take 100's of years not days or weeks or to get over. And even with all America's wealth and miltary muscle they'll run out of cash or soldiers before they run out of ideas to keep fighting.
I know I'm idealistic, I can't help it. I just believe in treating everyone the same way I would expect them to treat me. If the rest of the world was the same we wouldn't be discussing war with Iran. Or getting Turkish Troops out of Cyprus.
No one country is to blame. I love my country. (I love Cyprus MORE) but at the end of the day we're all as bad as each other.
It's a pity the idiot shot John Lennon, we could just do with him now. Aye? He'd make a bloody good President
US military action against Iran
by Dylan Howell » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:47 pm
- Dylan Howell
- New Member
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:17 pm
by pantheman » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:07 pm
Dear oh dear oh dear,
America again. I am not looking to offend anyone here, so please forgive me if i do, but when there is a problem, do you all agree that we need to know the cause before we can fix it ?
If your answer was yes, then why do so many have this hatred of the USA ? Why do the Iranians want to bomb the shit out of everyone, why does the middle east have this hatred ? I think a closer analysis is warrented. America could have done things so much more different than keep on muscling in on other countries. Perhaps it is easier said than done, but the fact remains why is it that people have this hatred ?
It is obvious from my previous postings that i am in one of those categorys but i feel justfied. When i refer to americans, i mean governments not the general public of course. I mean they are just fed bullshit by there internal systems and they believe it, sad. It is only sadly when 9/11 happened did they actually realise there were more people on the planet than just them selves!
Anyway that was my 2 cents worth.
Pantheman.
America again. I am not looking to offend anyone here, so please forgive me if i do, but when there is a problem, do you all agree that we need to know the cause before we can fix it ?
If your answer was yes, then why do so many have this hatred of the USA ? Why do the Iranians want to bomb the shit out of everyone, why does the middle east have this hatred ? I think a closer analysis is warrented. America could have done things so much more different than keep on muscling in on other countries. Perhaps it is easier said than done, but the fact remains why is it that people have this hatred ?
It is obvious from my previous postings that i am in one of those categorys but i feel justfied. When i refer to americans, i mean governments not the general public of course. I mean they are just fed bullshit by there internal systems and they believe it, sad. It is only sadly when 9/11 happened did they actually realise there were more people on the planet than just them selves!
Anyway that was my 2 cents worth.
Pantheman.
-
pantheman - Regular Contributor
- Posts: 1553
- Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:21 pm
by Kikapu » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:14 pm
Miltiades,
I'm by no means anti-west. I grew up in the West. Have you noticed how much ones free speech has been curbed in the USA and UK when it comes to criticizing your government about the Iraq war or showing sympathy for the other sides cause. I'm an open minded person and want to be able to say wrong is wrong and right is right. If my country is doing thats immoral than it should be stated.
Being killed by a suicide bomber or being hit by a cruise missile that was fires from 1000 miles away is just a weapons of choice. A strong military on one side dictates what weapon the other side uses to counter. Fanatics commit suicides, not Nations. Do you really believe Iran or any other Middle Easter country want to commit suicide by launching a nuclear missile into another country. Boy, we really do see them as nonhumans and they have no regard to their people or their country. Maybe if they were not being pushed around and bullied and we did not push the West's values on them and not asked to say UNCLE, perhaps they would be happy to be our friends.
I'm by no means anti-west. I grew up in the West. Have you noticed how much ones free speech has been curbed in the USA and UK when it comes to criticizing your government about the Iraq war or showing sympathy for the other sides cause. I'm an open minded person and want to be able to say wrong is wrong and right is right. If my country is doing thats immoral than it should be stated.
Being killed by a suicide bomber or being hit by a cruise missile that was fires from 1000 miles away is just a weapons of choice. A strong military on one side dictates what weapon the other side uses to counter. Fanatics commit suicides, not Nations. Do you really believe Iran or any other Middle Easter country want to commit suicide by launching a nuclear missile into another country. Boy, we really do see them as nonhumans and they have no regard to their people or their country. Maybe if they were not being pushed around and bullied and we did not push the West's values on them and not asked to say UNCLE, perhaps they would be happy to be our friends.
-
Kikapu - Leading Contributor
- Posts: 17975
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:18 pm
by Bananiot » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:13 am
Let us suppose that it is all about oil and its derivatives. The western world is predominantly a highly industrialised world. Without oil its economy will soon come to a standstill and the very fabric of society will disintigrate. Wars will break out and bombs will start flying loaded with radiation and perhaps so far forbiden chemical and biological material. It will be a situation where not only the maintenance of living standards are at risk but also survival of billions of people will be in the balance. The west has therefore an obligation to safeguard its supplies of petrol until alternative energy means are at hand.
Take little wee Cyprus. We rely entirely on petrol we import from oil rich countries. Our government will immediately fall (as any government would) if it did not provide a constant supply of oil. For us, the only prerequisite is to pay the bill to the countries we buy from. In the case of the western world at large it is never that simple. Politics come into the equation and many aspiring despots and dictators want to use oil as a weapon in order to try to blackmail governments. The west is not perfect but it is, as I said elsewhere, the best mankind can offer at the moment. Sure enough it has to prioritise its targets and it was no surprise that it entered into unholly alliances with the likes of Sadam Husein during the height of the cold war. In those decades the threat to western civilisation came from soviet totalitarianism. Now priorities have changed but remember, what is at stake has not changed. Our way of life has always been at stake and if we value our civilisation we should continue to defend society, structures and values. These are basically world acclaimed values such as freedom, social justice, solidarity and infinate care of the week and poor. The laws that govern our society are specially made to take care of the week and less fortunate individuals and such laws exist only in the western civilised world. Thus, these values are worth struggling for and to those that say that the west is evil, I say yes, it can be evil but it is the only world where imposters, corrupted individuals and liars eventually pay for their sins. Look at Nixon, for example who was the President of the greatest country on earth but had to resign in shame because this is how the west works.
In Cyprus, many feel that the USA has not behaved properly towards the Greek Cypriots. We are justified to think like this because mainly we cannot see the greater picture because of heavy bias. In the case of an oil war we would be the first to suffer because we have no reserves and soon the tanks of our cars, airoplanes ets would run dry. Soon we will need to revert to candles and the lux (do you remember them?). Thus by supporting the west on this we are supporting our own interests (even France came against the Iranians today in a strong worded statement) and frankly I do not see how I can be a traitor by supporting such views as someone suggested in the previous page.
By the way, I voted for the Annan Plan and this I believe makes me a good patriot because I have no doubt in my mind that it is either a solution based on a Plan like the Annan Plan or partition. I believe partition constitutes the greatest treason that can be made against Cyprus. We can discuss these in another thread.
Take little wee Cyprus. We rely entirely on petrol we import from oil rich countries. Our government will immediately fall (as any government would) if it did not provide a constant supply of oil. For us, the only prerequisite is to pay the bill to the countries we buy from. In the case of the western world at large it is never that simple. Politics come into the equation and many aspiring despots and dictators want to use oil as a weapon in order to try to blackmail governments. The west is not perfect but it is, as I said elsewhere, the best mankind can offer at the moment. Sure enough it has to prioritise its targets and it was no surprise that it entered into unholly alliances with the likes of Sadam Husein during the height of the cold war. In those decades the threat to western civilisation came from soviet totalitarianism. Now priorities have changed but remember, what is at stake has not changed. Our way of life has always been at stake and if we value our civilisation we should continue to defend society, structures and values. These are basically world acclaimed values such as freedom, social justice, solidarity and infinate care of the week and poor. The laws that govern our society are specially made to take care of the week and less fortunate individuals and such laws exist only in the western civilised world. Thus, these values are worth struggling for and to those that say that the west is evil, I say yes, it can be evil but it is the only world where imposters, corrupted individuals and liars eventually pay for their sins. Look at Nixon, for example who was the President of the greatest country on earth but had to resign in shame because this is how the west works.
In Cyprus, many feel that the USA has not behaved properly towards the Greek Cypriots. We are justified to think like this because mainly we cannot see the greater picture because of heavy bias. In the case of an oil war we would be the first to suffer because we have no reserves and soon the tanks of our cars, airoplanes ets would run dry. Soon we will need to revert to candles and the lux (do you remember them?). Thus by supporting the west on this we are supporting our own interests (even France came against the Iranians today in a strong worded statement) and frankly I do not see how I can be a traitor by supporting such views as someone suggested in the previous page.
By the way, I voted for the Annan Plan and this I believe makes me a good patriot because I have no doubt in my mind that it is either a solution based on a Plan like the Annan Plan or partition. I believe partition constitutes the greatest treason that can be made against Cyprus. We can discuss these in another thread.
-
Bananiot - Main Contributor
- Posts: 6397
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:51 pm
- Location: Nicosia
by kodo » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:01 am
Kikapu, I assume that by saying that the west has committed more crimes against humanity than any Middle Eastern country you are referring to WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc? WWI and WWII were products of Germany, Korea was a multi-ally effort, and the USA went into Vietnam only after their "good friend and ally" France begged them to and look where it got them.
Yes, the USA is the only country to have deployed nuclear bombs. They did that sixty years ago and have gone to great lengths to see that it is not done again. They also made a heavy commitment to Japan's reconstruction after the war. Remember that Turkey became a strategic ally of the US when Russia and Cuba were in bed together. The USA's alliance with Turkey is nothing specifically against Cyprus.
It is quite interesting that both Iraq wars are under the father and son of the Bush family, who made its riches in the oil industry. This is not lost on Americans.
Israel can and will defend herself, which makes dealing with Iran even more important.
Fear is not misplaced on the wrong people. No western government rewards and encourages suicide bombers. Can you imagine this....Nuclear technology advances to the point where nuclear bombs are concealable and the size of a book. Some fanatic straps a bunch to himself, packs a suitcase full of them, walks into a busy metropolitan area and wipes out everything within a 100km radius.
Yes, the USA is the only country to have deployed nuclear bombs. They did that sixty years ago and have gone to great lengths to see that it is not done again. They also made a heavy commitment to Japan's reconstruction after the war. Remember that Turkey became a strategic ally of the US when Russia and Cuba were in bed together. The USA's alliance with Turkey is nothing specifically against Cyprus.
It is quite interesting that both Iraq wars are under the father and son of the Bush family, who made its riches in the oil industry. This is not lost on Americans.
Israel can and will defend herself, which makes dealing with Iran even more important.
Fear is not misplaced on the wrong people. No western government rewards and encourages suicide bombers. Can you imagine this....Nuclear technology advances to the point where nuclear bombs are concealable and the size of a book. Some fanatic straps a bunch to himself, packs a suitcase full of them, walks into a busy metropolitan area and wipes out everything within a 100km radius.
- kodo
- New Member
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:52 pm
- Location: member at large
by miltiades » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:40 am
Bananiot and kodo , your posts feel me with pride that such level headed responsible Cypriots (I take it that kodo also is one , would not matter if he isnt ). The tendency of many of our compatriots in Cyprus is to make perverse moral equivalence , ie if Israel has the nuke why not Iran , thats what I mean by a perverted comparsison. Back to your posts gentlemen , keep it up, our beloved Cyprus needs you , you have made me a very proud CYPRIOT , NOT THAT I WASNT BEFORE , but it reenforces my belief that Cyprus is the Paradise island that it is and a solution is not that afar.
-
miltiades - Leading Contributor
- Posts: 19837
- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:01 pm
by kodo » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:58 pm
Thank you miltiades, I am proud as well.
Bananiot's remarks about oil are precise. Hopefully countries around the world will look for betre fuel alternatives, like Brazil has done. I do hope that the USA will be agressive in developing alternatives to oil. The USA has to protect its economy, by doing this they protect the world's economy. The American economy trips and everybody falls. Without oil, the tourism industry will die and where will Cyprus be?
Bananiot's remarks about oil are precise. Hopefully countries around the world will look for betre fuel alternatives, like Brazil has done. I do hope that the USA will be agressive in developing alternatives to oil. The USA has to protect its economy, by doing this they protect the world's economy. The American economy trips and everybody falls. Without oil, the tourism industry will die and where will Cyprus be?
- kodo
- New Member
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:52 pm
- Location: member at large
by cypezokyli » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:03 pm
the other day we had a small briefing from an iranian student. it was very interesting and i realised by how far we dont have a clue about iran. thats the more important points he said :
the military attack on iran is way too difficult bc
1. an air attack , isnot sufficient bc they dont really know where the s**t is hidden
2. a military attack has also huge problems. take a map and look at the size of iran. is twice as big as iran. and look at the problems they have there.
second , iran really rich. they give 80 million$ per month to hispolah! without iranian support the iraqi resistance would have been nonexistand.
third, the president of iran doesnot mean a thing. he is just a puppet of a system of clerics that control the system since they manage to steal the revolution from the left.
the best thing the west can do is to support or create organisations that can stand up against the regime. the regime is as filthy as bush , and they have clear targets of increasing their own power in the middle east. traditionally iran had no problems with israel or the US. it is part of the game of having a common enemy and that why it is offenly used in the rhetoric the iranian president reads (not writes
)
......
i am not really sure if the west is justified to attack any country just because they donot give us their oil , to run our civilization - however good that civilization might be.
our we justified to kill people just because we do not want to light our rooms with candles ?
the military attack on iran is way too difficult bc
1. an air attack , isnot sufficient bc they dont really know where the s**t is hidden
2. a military attack has also huge problems. take a map and look at the size of iran. is twice as big as iran. and look at the problems they have there.
second , iran really rich. they give 80 million$ per month to hispolah! without iranian support the iraqi resistance would have been nonexistand.
third, the president of iran doesnot mean a thing. he is just a puppet of a system of clerics that control the system since they manage to steal the revolution from the left.
the best thing the west can do is to support or create organisations that can stand up against the regime. the regime is as filthy as bush , and they have clear targets of increasing their own power in the middle east. traditionally iran had no problems with israel or the US. it is part of the game of having a common enemy and that why it is offenly used in the rhetoric the iranian president reads (not writes
)
......
i am not really sure if the west is justified to attack any country just because they donot give us their oil , to run our civilization - however good that civilization might be.
our we justified to kill people just because we do not want to light our rooms with candles ?
- cypezokyli
- Regular Contributor
- Posts: 2563
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:11 pm
- Location: deutschland
by Kikapu » Mon May 01, 2006 3:08 pm
kodo wrote:Kikapu, I assume that by saying that the west has committed more crimes against humanity than any Middle Eastern country you are referring to WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc? WWI and WWII were products of Germany, Korea was a multi-ally effort, and the USA went into Vietnam only after their "good friend and ally" France begged them to and look where it got them.
.
Kodo
When I said the "West", I don't only mean the USA. It includes all of Europe and whole of Russian territory. More crimes against humanity was committed by all of these so called "civilized nations" in the last 100 years than it can ever be done my all of Middle Eastern countries
-
Kikapu - Leading Contributor
- Posts: 17975
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:18 pm
by miltiades » Mon May 01, 2006 3:42 pm
And for the first time in world history people strap themselves with explosives and irrespective of who the victims will be , you , I , your family , my family, blow them selves up.Hineous crime against humanity The perpetrators of this disgusting inhuman act are widely supported in many parts of the ME.
As for the West being responsible for more crimes against humanity than the ME , just imagine if the ME had the power in military terms what they would be cabable of commiting.The west is not as you say "so called civilized nations" IT IS THE CIVILIZED WEST that all other nations aspire to destroy and take us back to the Middle ages. It is the West that has given it's people that precious freedom from theocracy , the freedom to believe or not believe. The freedom to democraticaly elect its governments.In preserving these precious gifts the West has to act to curtail the growth of this cancerous ideologies that so many countries adopt.
As for the West being responsible for more crimes against humanity than the ME , just imagine if the ME had the power in military terms what they would be cabable of commiting.The west is not as you say "so called civilized nations" IT IS THE CIVILIZED WEST that all other nations aspire to destroy and take us back to the Middle ages. It is the West that has given it's people that precious freedom from theocracy , the freedom to believe or not believe. The freedom to democraticaly elect its governments.In preserving these precious gifts the West has to act to curtail the growth of this cancerous ideologies that so many countries adopt.
-
miltiades - Leading Contributor
- Posts: 19837
- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:01 pm
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
© 2002 - 2015 Cyprus-Forum.com
