Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

Everybody in the GC side is very keen on using EU membership, to obtain more concessions from Turkey in Cyprus problem. One thing they are failing to realize that there will not be a Cyprus solution the way they want it before Turkey becomes member of EU. In the continuing world of international politics, do GCs really expect that Turkey will give up all its advantages it had obtained in Cyprus after 1974, before being a full member of Cyprus?

In Turkeys mind Cyprus problem can only be solved at the same time with EU membership or after but never before. They will never accept any Cyprus solution, the way Papadopoulos wants, before they become EU member and expose themselves of a big surprise from EU at the last minute, with a possible veto from any EU country including Cyprus. I mean after all if Cyprus is solved the way Papadopoulos desires, then what stops GCs not vetoing Turkey membership to EU at the last minute. (or any other country for that matter.)

For this reason Turkey will keep its Cyprus card until the last day of EU membership negotiation, but until then will only accept solution like 1960 constitution, or Annan Plan, not like what GCs envisions.

So it suits both GCs and TCs to wait. Because if GCs wait they can get a solution to Cyprus the way they want from Turkey when Turkey is about to enter. Because if Turkey waits it can assure that GC will not block its future membership.

So where does this leave us TCs. I believe TCs should start realizing this and try to safeguard our rights obtained in 1960 constitution. Slowly in the next coming years I expect seeing many TCs first applying GC courts, then if rejected then applying EU courts and ECHR, to uphold the rights granted to them under 1960 constitution.

And if law prevails, they will get all these rights. And to the dismay of many GCs these rights will include many things like 70-30% representation. Vice-president from TC with veto power, etc. etc. All these rights are our constitutional rights in RoC and without our approval can not be removed. So with court cases, like GCs have been doing to Turkey for years, they will implement all these rights that they have obtained in 1960 constitution.

The only that will be left to settle will be the property issues and settler issues. And these issues will not be solved till Turkey becomes member of EU.

[magikthrill]

My friend,


Seeing as northern cyprus is illegal, I don't see why any TC would hope for the law to solve anything?

If law were to prevail with the Cyprus problem, the turkish army would disappear the northern pseudo-state would be dismantled and there could be a chance of peace in Cyprus.

[turkcyp]

My friend,

Seeing as northern cyprus is illegal, I don't see why any TC would hope for the law to solve anything?

If law were to prevail with the Cyprus problem, the turkish army would disappear the northern pseudo-state would be dismantled and there could be a chance of peace in Cyprus.

So what you are saying is that because Turkey is not being legal this gives is right to not be legal as well.

I do not see any legal obstacle in applying 1960 constitution in RoC. After all you always claim that that constituiton is not changed, right?

Lets say 10k TCs turned back to south tomorow, and said here we are as a TC community as dictated by the 1960 constitution choose the vice-president of RoC, and here we also choose our 15 representatives, and ready to participate RoC as 1960 constitution directs, then which court in GC can reject that. Or if they reject do you really think that those same TCs will not take their claims to EU and ask for the implementation of 1960 constitution.

The point I am trying to make is this. Here with the current international politics, it suits GC and Trukey to wait to solve the problem at the same time of Turkish EU membership, at which at that time any solution will be what GCs always dreamed of.

Do you really expect TCs not to employ every legal manouvre to get their righst granted to them in 1960 constitution. And do you see any feasible way of stoping those righst applied legally.

As I have always said Annan Plan is far worse than 1960 constitution in terms of constitutional rights for TCs. What GCs really want is not the 1960 constitution but the political structure they have created in Cyprus after 1963, which simply is not acceptable to TCs, even though it may be acceptable to GCs and Turkey. They will employ every legal tool to stop that happening.

[Piratis]

And if law prevails, they will get all these rights. And to the dismay of many GCs these rights will include many things like 70-30% representation. Vice-president from TC with veto power, etc. etc. All these rights are our constitutional rights in RoC and without our approval can not be removed. So with court cases, like GCs have been doing to Turkey for years, they will implement all these rights that they have obtained in 1960 constitution.

Ok, so lets say all these happen. What will be the excuse that Turkey will use to continue to occupy 1/3rd of Cyprus? Obviously they will not be able to claim that they are here to protect TCs.

By the way, to the RoC TCs don't only have rights. They also have responsibilities and they have to obey the laws. Not obeying these laws can bring penalties. Are you law obeying?

As we say, you can't eat the whole pie and have your dog fed at the same time. TCs can't have 1/3rd of Cyprus just for themselves and then demand to share with us the rest at the same time.

[turkcyp]

Ok, so lets say all these happen. What will be the excuse that Turkey will use to continue to occupy 1/3rd of Cyprus? Obviously they will not be able to claim that they are here to protect TCs. .

Turkey is the direct party that you should be addresing this situation. As in my previous post you can simply understand that all I am trying to do is to protect TC rights in the grand battle of GC and Turkey.

By the way, to the RoC TCs don't only have rights. They also have responsibilities and they have to obey the laws. Not obeying these laws can bring penalties. Are you law obeying?

As we say, you can't eat the whole pie and have your dog fed at the same time. TCs can't have 1/3rd of Cyprus just for themselves and then demand to share with us the rest at the same time.

Did I dispute this any other way. Read my above post carefully, I said if we turn back to RoC, which basically means, living in south, paying taxes etc. etc. Any other duties that you want me to do. Perhaps next thing you will suggest as a Cypriot citizen I should be opposing Turkish intervention as well like the rest of GCs.

Please at least let me keep my personal opinion to be different then of GCs, and RoC. As far as I know, I am obliged to obey Cyprus laws, not obliged to agree with them. There is something called "freedom of speech", and "freedom of making up my own mind" if you are not aware of it.

Realize teh premise of the first post. It simply says that with the current going, nobody (neither GCs nor Turkey) is interested in saving the rights of TCs. So I will have too find ways of saving my own rights. So I decide to turn back to famous EU courts may be. May be I become teh first Louzidou of TCs, suing RoC for my constitutional rights and wining.

[Piratis]

Perhaps next thing you will suggest as a Cypriot citizen I should be opposing Turkish intervention as well like the rest of GCs.

No, nobody can force you to oppose the occupation. What you can not do, and is against the law, is to support the occupation. Are you willing to serve in the army also?

When I said about not obeying the law i didn't mean this. What I meant is that you are always supposed to obey the laws and not only when you decide to do so.

[turkcyp]

No, nobody can force you to oppose the occupation. What you can not do, and is against the law, is to support the occupation. Are you willing to serve in the army also?

When I said about not obeying the law i didn't mean this. What I meant is that you are always supposed to obey the laws and not only when you decide to do so.

Supporting the occupation can be done in many ways. What do you mean by supporting the occupation? I will always believe that it is not an occupation, and there is a reason why Turkey is in Cyprus. Again these are my beliefs; I hope you and RoC can respect that.

At the same time, I will always as a member of TC community would vote to turn down any initiative from GC community that portrays Turkey as an invader. I hope you believe my right to vote in whatever I want, not what GCs want.

What I can promise to do is not to occupy any GC land which is illegally obtained. If that is what you are asking by saying opposing occupation.

Furthermore, as a member civilized country such as RoC, you should know that in civilized countries, there are penalties for every illegal action. So if I am doing an illegal action, then RoC should simply sue me an individual and prove that I am guilty in the courts (not guilty until proven) and then give me my punishment. I agree with all these. And after I serve my term, I should be returned to my rights, like every other citizen.

Without doing this, you can not simply say that you are not following the laws of RoC and you do not have any rights. You should now this from legality point of view.

And furthermore in a civilized society, you should now that law can not hold prejudice against any individual for actions somebody else did. Which basically you can not lump all TCs in one big basket.

I am more than ready to be sued by the RoC according to the laws that exist in 1963. Sorry for not accepting many of the laws you have passed without my input. The idea is to turn back to 1960 constitution and laws not what you have created after 1963.

Relating to serving in the army, I believe that 1960 constitution was asking for an army of 2000 composed of %60 GC and %40 TC. And I think that army was supposed to be a professional army, in other words there would be no draft. So how can you ask me to go and serve in the army.

Or when you mean army do you mean the ‘National Guard” which you have formed fully composed of GCs, which is full of hate against TCs.

[Piratis]

I will always believe that it is not an occupation, and there is a reason why Turkey is in Cyprus. Again these are my beliefs; I hope you and RoC can respect that.

Do you know what treason is and what penalties most countries have for it? As you said, it is not good to judge everybody as a group and I agree. This will be on a case by case basis.

In any case, RoC might not have much power, but from a legal point of view is quite covered. So I wouldn't have very high expectations if I were you. If the occupation does not end the problem will remain for both TCs and GCs.

As a TC, even before a solution is found, you can live like the rest of us and have the same rights and responsibilities like me. But don't hope for any super privileges.

[turkcyp]

Do you know what treason is and what penalties most countries have for it? As you said, it is not good to judge everybody as a group and I agree. This will be on a case by case basis.

In any case, RoC might not have much power, but from a legal point of view is quite covered. So I wouldn't have very high expectations if I were you. If the occupation does not end the problem will remain for both TCs and GCs.

As a TC, even before a solution is found, you can live like the rest of us and have the same rights and responsibilities like me. But don't hope for any super privileges.

Yes Piratis, I know what treason is, and believing that Turkey is not an occupational force is not a treason. It is my basic freedom to believe whatever I want. It is called "Freedom of speech"

As I have said there are levels of support. Some of them can be considered treason and some can not.

Furthermore by saying that some TCs comited the crime of treason, and therefore lumping all the TCs in the same camp, and even without a fair trial denying all my rights from 1960 constitution is acceptable for you.

Now I understand how much you believe in human rights and superioty of law,

Anyway turning back to subject, I just said that is the only option TCs left with, and they should pursue it. If GC courts do not honour their own constitution, I am preety sure some EU courts will honour it, or ECHR court will honour it.

Have a good day,

[Piratis]

Yes Piratis, I know what treason is, and believing that Turkey is not an occupational force is not a treason. It is my basic freedom to believe whatever I want. It is called "Freedom of speech"

As I have said there are levels of support. Some of them can be considered treason and some can not.

Ok, this is why I said it should be on a case by cases basis.

Anyway turning back to subject, I just said that is the only option TCs left with, and they should pursue it. If GC courts do not honour their own constitution, I am preety sure some EU courts will honour it, or ECHR court will honour it.

You are free to try. As I told you RoC is legally quite covered due to the abnormal situation that is imposed by the occupation. In any case this are things for lawyers, not for me.