Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

Turkcyp,
The only reason I am in this forum is to exchane views with people, to inform myself and hopefully to learn 2 or 3 new things. At the same time I have never asserted to be 100% correct. So why the agressive and bitter tone in your post? You have every right to disagree with what I write but at least try to do it with aruments like others are already doing.

Sorry if I sound aggresive, but there is nothing personal. It is just my style to use sharp words. It makes the point go acroos easier, and in return I accept it may sound rude sometimes. For that I am sorry

I am afaid I do not understand your question. As I wrote in other posts, in 1963 your leadership made a conscisous decision to walk out of the RoC and set up its own "autonomous administration". To this date and to the best of my knowledge, the Turkish side objects to any idea that would even suggest its return to the RoC, or am I wrong?

O.

Oh please. We did not make any conscious effort to move out of anywhere. You started everything on December 21, 1963, and give a card blanche to the extreme elements in the TC society to further their partitionist policies.

Juts know this a very majority of the TC society did not want partition until December of 1963. You started squeezing us, so there was nobody to turn to. Then after the events of 64-64 even the moderate elements of the TC society start thinking “May be these taksim people are right. May be we can not live with GCs. May be they are right that all GCs want to do is kill us”

So believing that GCs has moderated their extreme elements, and can control their extreme nationalist people, I for one (can not talk for the whole society, but I believe I am a good representative of TC society. I may be wrong who knows?) would be happy to turn back to 1960 constitutional order. (but definitely not the order you have created after 1964)

Have a good day,

[turkcyp]

Turkcyp,

What on earth are you talking about?

The constitution does not need to be changed in order to allow the TC's to vote in the south.

All the RoC is doing is to allow those TC's that wish to the individual right to vote in the PRESIDENTIAL elections. If an individual TC wishes to participate in the RoC and wants to be deemed as being part of the 'GC community' then that does not constitute a problem and in no way does it contradict the constitution. Or does that individual need the permission of Turkey or Denktas before they can vote?

If the TC's want to participate in the RoC as per the constitution then they should perhaps demand their rights under that constitution AND REJOIN THE RoC. It is VERY simple. Now, why do the TC leaders not ask to do this?

BECASUE THEY WANT EVEN MORE THAN WHAT THE 1960 CONSTITUTION GIVES TO THEM.

No that is not true.

Now you start telling me what we want or not. We do not want to vote with the GCs. And for your understanding. We never in the 1960 constitution have voted for the president. We only voted for the vice president. Please learn your constitution first.

You choose president. We choose vice president. Both president and vice president has veto power on certain issues like foreign policy, defence, etc.

Furthermore Cypriots do not even vote for parliament together. GCs elect their own representatives, TCs elect their own. So there is no such thing as mixed voting, where any TC vote is cast for either the president of for the GC representatives.

What you want us to do is to cross over to RoC, and start voting for president and GC representatives, and effectively turn us into minority in the GC society, and effectively killing all our righst from 1960 constitution.

If you were not going to honor that constitution, Makarios should not have signed it in the first place. After that all we were hoping that you would stand behind your signature.

Where did you get the idea that we want more than what 1960 constitution gives us. We would have preferred to live in a bizonal environment, and for that we can negotiaite from our rights of 1960 constitution. You know the old, give some and take some. But if we don not agree we are happy with the 1960 constitution without bizonality. (of course that is me talking, and talking while believing that you can control you extreme nationalist elements in your society so TCs will not experience the events of 63/64 again. I do not know if the rest of the TC society will be as trusting to GCs as I am, but I am merely giving my opinion here)

Have a good day

[turkcyp]

The constitution does not need to be changed in order to allow the TC's to vote in the south.

All the RoC is doing is to allow those TC's that wish to the individual right to vote in the PRESIDENTIAL elections. If an individual TC wishes to participate in the RoC and wants to be deemed as being part of the 'GC community' then that does not constitute a problem and in no way does it contradict the constitution. Or does that individual need the permission of Turkey or Denktas before they can vote?

If the TC's want to participate in the RoC as per the constitution then they should perhaps demand their rights under that constitution AND REJOIN THE RoC. It is VERY simple. Now, why do the TC leaders not ask to do this?

Dude, I hope you don't mind my intruding in the conversation.
I think we need to clarify a few things, just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. I feel there is a fundamental misunderstanding concerning the 1960 constitution.

One of the reasons that led to GCs wishing to amend the constitution is that they felt it gave TCs excessive rights, over and above their numerical presence in the island.
One of the provisions of the constitution was that GCs voted for a GC president, whereas TCs voted for a TC vice-president, separately. The TC VP had the right to veto decisions made by the President.
The Turkish invasion/intervention of 1974 was based on the fundamental premise that the 1960 constitution was no longer valid, as a) GCs nullified it by means of overthrowing the legal government, b) GCs themselves unilaterally tried to amend it (Makarios's 13 amendments) and c) TCs withdrew from the government, allegedly not by choice (they were claimed to have been 'forced out'). This is what Turkey based its reasoning on, to justify the invasion.

On the other hand, the GC official position is that TCs withdrew from the government by choice, not by force, and that, following restoration of constitutional order (Sampson 'resigned' and Clerides took over as the constitutional replacement of the elected president), the 1960 constitution remains in effect. Therefore, I cannot see how we can contradict our own selves and deny any TCs living in the South their right to vote for a VP, no matter how few they are. It is in the constitution! Still, it is not likely that any TC will come forward and run for VP (that would be recognizing the 1960 constitution, which for reasons a), b) and c) above could never be done), but this is a theoretical discussion.

Personally, I was under the impression that, following 1974, if we were ever given the chance to go back to the 1960 constitution, we'd jump at the opportunity and thank God for our good fortune. But some postings on this forum have made me reconsider. So, theoretically, the issue here is, if TCs were to return to the RoC under the 1960 constitution (and given that they don't want to vote for a GC president, but for a TC VP, as provided by the original agreement, which, by the way, still bears our signature...), would we accept granting them the rights provided in that constitution???

Thank you,

I love this dude. At the end somebody understood my point.

[boulio]

as some one said before its give and take,does that mean also if things go back to the 1960 constituion people go back to there homes and properties as well?

[turkcyp]

Ask this question to yourself, and answer truthfully. ........snip
If your answer is 'no" then I will say no more, and leave you alone with your hypocritical, self-righteous comments...... snip

Turkcyp,
I personally answered your very same question not once but twice! In my second reply I even wanted to post a poll on your behalf, but I thought it wouldn’t be polite to "steal" your question so I asked you to do it.You never replied to me.
Why should you reply to the No1 hypocrite of the forum anyway?

Here are copies of my first and second replies
*****************************************************

TurkCyp,

I remember when I was participating in a forum the majority of which were nationalists I told them the following:
What you guys think you will do if one day by some miracle the RoC suddenly takes full control of the island? Will the Cyprus government let you go to the northern part and start a new bloodshed, or let you throw people out in the streets? DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! It will first put all the army, all the Police, All the UN, plus more UN, to guard the borders so that nobody crosses. It will declare a situation of emergency! Then slowly slowly it will bring individual people face to face escorted by police. The first effort is to fascilitate and convince people to exchange equal properties. Everything will be done slowly slowly and it may take 2 - 3 years for the situation of emergency to be lifted.
Do I need to mention that most of the administrative system in the north will have to remain intact and autonomous? And that the RoC will be oblidged under the circumstances to undertake its financing otherwise it will collapse and create chaos at the northern part, that the RoC will not be able to handle? This may surprise many, especially the nationalists, but this is what is going to happen, and if the initial measure of autonomy proves satisfactory to both sides, this is what the final solution will be.

I don't agree that nothing will happen, if the state does not take extremely tough measures and declare a situation of emergency. With all respect but you really don't know how far people can go in defending or claiming something that belongs to them. Alexandros Lordos in this forum is a psychlologist. Ask him to tell you. Or just compare what happens when you cause a little damage to someones car.Of course we are not talking for all the people, but even 20 or 30% is enough to turn the place into hell.

The matter of settlers will be arranged according with international law, human rights, EU Aquis and international aggreements that the RoC already signed! Many of them will have to go. Others will stay. And beleive me everything will be according to law and according to human rights. I can’t describe the whole process in detail, but I am sure you got the meaning.

The RoC of today my friend is a responsible state that functions ACCORDING WITH LAW. It is not the state of the 60s.

PS.1) I would like a TC to tell us how the TCs will react against the settlers in this hypothetical scenario. Will the situation become unstable in the northern part from fighting between TCs and settlers, or will they tolerate each other at least for as much time as it might be necessary to clarify who remains a citizen and who leaves?
2)Why not the Turkish Army leave on an agreed schedule, that will enable all concerned handle the situation?
**********************************************************

So I am asking again one more time to my fellow GC countrymen. Let's say tomorrow Turkish Army decided to leave Cyprus and 'occupation' as you name it cease to exist
Will you then start applying 1960 constitution or not? This is a crucial questions in the minds of many many TCs.

Definetely yes for 2 reasons: Because thats what 99.99% of the GCs want, and second if the rulers of RoC show reluctancy, you will sue RoCs ass out in the EU courts. Can’t you see that? Be sure the ones who will help you do that -in case the rulers are relactant- are the GCs lawyers and specialists themselves.... (Note:Why don't you post a poll for this asking the GCs to vote?)

That is why I think I can do business with you MicAtCyp, but at the same time I also believe you are out of touch with your society,

And you never know, may be I am out of touch with my society as well in believeing that we can live together and the events of 63/64 will not happen again.

Let me tell you this much. I have voted 'yes' for Annan Plan, and I think teh 1960 constitutional order was better than Annan Plan. So take a guess about my opinion about 1960 constituonal order.

[boulio]

so your for people going back to there homes?

[turkcyp]

as some one said before its give and take,does that mean also if things go back to the 1960 constituion people go back to there homes and properties as well?

Hey if you read my posts, you will realize I have no problem with that.

And to my opinion what happened in Annan Plan was a forced give and take. It took some of our rights from 1960 constitution and gave us bizonality and federation.

so your for people going back to there homes?

I guess we are writing at the same time. And I guess I have answered your question while you are asking it.

I can live with everybody going to their homes, (But some arrangement shoudl be done for peoples who do not have a property anymore. E.G. if a TC do not have a property left in the south because RoC tore my house down after 1974, then I should be given priority on the house I am occupying, and the same true for GCs of course)

And I guess you can guess, if I have a house left back at south or not.

[Saint Jimmy]

as some one said before its give and take,does that mean also if things go back to the 1960 constituion people go back to there homes and properties as well?

Of course man, that goes without saying!!! If we were to return to the 1960 agreements (we should be so lucky, though ), ALL aspects of that agreement would have to be honoured. That's not even in question...

[boulio]

the roc budget for 2005 t/c home maintance in the south was 7,000,000 cypriot pounds,how much does the trnc put into maintaining the g/c homes annually.

[metecyp]

the roc budget for 2005 t/c home maintance in the south was 7,000,000 cypriot pounds,how much does the trnc put into maintaining the g/c homes annually.

The RoC has to put a budget to T/C home maintance because most of these houses are empty and they're left to basically collapse since 1974. On the other hand, most GC houses in the north are occupied and well maintained by people currently living in these houses.