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Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby humanist » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:52 am

Viewpoint I think you are right, not may Greek Speaking Cypriots will return to their properties, many have immigrated overseas and many have build new lives in the south and would not want to return ... i think most would like the right of return as opposed to physically returning. Many will take the appropriate compensation and stay where they are. I assure you it will not be a huge problemI seriously doubt it that more than a third will return. Perhaps the RoC needs to put that into a referendum who will return, who will take compensation and who is not interested.

Miltiadis I tend to support you in your responses to Keravon .... however Australians way of fairness and justice taking Aboriginal land and turning it into a white anglo saxon racist capitalist society that endeavours to ostracise its indigenous population and that votes a prime minister four terms consecutively that insists on not apologising to the Aboriginal people of the geocide they faced just over three hundret years ago. This is for Keravon I am not a native english speaker but I believ my english is prety good and as an Australian I find your coments ill informed. Ps need I mention that I have two university degrees in including a post graduate in social administration.
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Postby humanist » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:53 am

Ooooops what would I know I'm only a wog.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:15 pm

humanist
Viewpoint I think you are right, not may Greek Speaking Cypriots will return to their properties, many have immigrated overseas and many have build new lives in the south and would not want to return ... i think most would like the right of return as opposed to physically returning. Many will take the appropriate compensation and stay where they are. I assure you it will not be a huge problemI seriously doubt it that more than a third will return. Perhaps the RoC needs to put that into a referendum who will return, who will take compensation and who is not interested.


Would be beneficial to get these figures into the open so that TCs will be relieved of the fear of being swamped by GCs. If the % is low then GCs cannot object to an upper limit safety valve being put in place just in case :wink:
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Postby kerravon » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:33 pm

humanist wrote:Miltiadis I tend to support you in your responses to Keravon .... however Australians way of fairness and justice taking Aboriginal land and turning it into a white anglo saxon racist capitalist society that endeavours to ostracise its indigenous population and that votes a prime minister four terms consecutively that insists on not apologising to the Aboriginal people of the geocide they faced just over three hundret years ago. This is for Keravon I am not a native english speaker but I believ my english is prety good and as an Australian I find your coments ill informed. Ps need I mention that I have two university degrees in including a post graduate in social administration.

Yep, you're a wog. You brought your racism to this country. You should go back to wogland where you can be with your racist friends. You're not welcome here. Calling the least racist country in the world, with immigrants from all over the world "racist" is a complete inversion of reality. Nor do we "endeavour to ostracise" the Aboriginals. We've actually tried very hard to integrate them. And they have every right a non-Aboriginal has. Next you'll be saying that we're racist in favour of Asians, since Asians have completely swamped the "selective schools". Or doesn't that inconvenient fact fit into your anti-white racist mind? You continue to blame whites for things they are simply not doing. You are an anti-white racist, otherwise known as a "wog". Australia is an anti-racist society and you are simply not welcome. Nor should completely innocent whites have to apologize for things they never did. Guilt is not transferrable. People are born free of sin, a human right you don't seem to acknowledge. And people have a right to not be judged by the colour of their skin, another human right you don't acknowledge. Besides which, there was never a genocide against Aboriginals, that's just another lie you made up.

Part of this War on Terror is to eliminate racism. You are the enemy in this global battle that trascends race/religion/sex/nationality. Prepare to die. Us anti-racists have far superior weaponry to you racists. Be patient, we'll get to you.

And with racists like you around, you can understand why the TC are keen to have Turkey's protection, because they know that Turkey isn't going to discriminate against them based on their race. Not only do you dredge up ancient and fabricated history about Australia (not sure where you got 300 years from given that whites only turned up in 1788), you even fabricate lies about the present. Sorry, I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you, and if I were TC I wouldn't trust the GC if they're anything like the people on this board either.

It's looking more and more like it's time to recognize Northern Cyprus as an independent country. They have a right to be protected from GC wanting revenge for real and imaginary things from the past. And I hope Australia leads the way in protecting them.
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Postby kerravon » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:26 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Would be beneficial to get these figures into the open so that TCs will be relieved of the fear of being swamped by GCs. If the % is low then GCs cannot object to an upper limit safety valve being put in place just in case :wink:

Why not just say that the TC government will determine the level of immigration and leave it at that? The GC can apply to immigrate but they will not necessarily be accepted. Not sure how you would go about deciding who gets accepted or not. Probably just treat TC like any other country with an immigration policy (e.g. Australia). We take some skilled migrants, some family reunions and some refugees. We do so at a rate that is designed to give the immigrants time to assimilate. As you can see from the previous poster, we get immigrants who bring their racism with them, and we need to wait for the next generation for them to get Australian values (ie anti-racism, anti-religious-bigotry, anti-subjugation, anti-dogma (roughly)). You need to see how the GC integrate.

Another thing you probably need to protect against is racist/religious parties being formed. This is a recipe for disaster. Belgium has laws against creating racist parties. Australia doesn't, which is why we have a "Chinese Australian Party". No-one votes for them though. Our main parties are not race-based.

But it's a very different situation in Northern Ireland, where people are voting along sectarian lines. This problem won't be solved without banning sectarian parties. And the same thing has happened in Iraq. The 3 different groups have voted for 3 different sectarian/race-based parties. It's a recipe for disaster. They've sort of avoided the problem at the moment by having a national unity government.

We know what works. What works is a 2-party system split into left-wing/right-wing on economic grounds, with both parties converging to the middle to try to secure 50% of the vote. I don't know whether or not you have that in Northern and Southern Cyprus, but that's what you need to be able to integrate the GC into Northern Cyprus. If the GC start voting as a block, you're in big trouble.
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Postby miltiades » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:41 pm

Kerravon wrote "
"""Sorry, I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you, and if I were TC I wouldn't trust the GC if they're anything like the people on this board either.

It's looking more and more like it's time to recognize Northern Cyprus as an independent country. They have a right to be protected from GC wanting revenge for real and imaginary things from the """

From your very first post I figured that you are talking a load of rubbish , but you are at least consistent .
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:42 pm

I really don't think it would be acceptable or fair to treat GCs as immigrants, they state that the number will not be very high so in order to verify this claim we need hard information of exactly how GCs intend to resettle in the north state. Its really psychological if you say to someone you may not settle in the north then they want this even more but if you allow them the freedom to settle where they wish then they may not even think about going north. If this figure is low then an upper limit can be fixed to ensure that it is not exploited to turn TCs into a minority in their own northern state.
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Postby miltiades » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:51 pm

I COPIED THIS FROM ANOTHER THREAD SPECIFICALY FOR THE AUSTRALIAN Genius

""A great article from Alkan CHAGLAR in the Londra Toplum Postasi...

Embittered feelings following the rejection of the Annan plan amongst the Turkish Cypriots seem to have reached new highs with former youth demonstrators who once proudly stood in Inonu Square, Nicosia holding colourful banners that promoted reunification now accepting ‘defeat’ or the ‘error’ of their ways. Some of these people were young students wearing a single olive branch in their hair and symbol of peace painted on their face unshielded from the Cypriot sun because of their passion for change. So what has happened to all the giddy excitement of those youthful Cypriot students? Is this the epitagh for a peace with reunification?

Of course we all know, we have heard it time and time again on our television sets, on the radio and reminded again in newspapers that while the Turkish Cypriots approved the Annan Plan, the Greek Cypriots overwhelmingly rejected it. But did they reject that particular plan or the Turkish Cypriot people? By voting 75% against the UN plan did they reject peace in general? And for how long did our own Papadopoulos Mr Denktash reject similar plans in the past 32 years?

Keen to provide a point on which they should concentrate their anger, certain Turkish Cypriots aided by media and certain politicians now believe we should abandon all hope for a solution as it is the ‘Greeks’ who are the obstacle. Stubbornness and a hardening of attitudes on both sides are rising in the face of the current deadlock, occasionally whipped up by nationalist media.

However, the issue to be rankled over is not how best to immediately alleviate feelings of frustration, anger and even humiliation that have long been a symptom of the Cyprus problem, but why precisely are Turkish Cypriots isolated? Rather than acting on emotion, and stereotypes imprinted on the minds of the community in the north by certain sections of the media and politicians, Turkish Cypriots for their part should recognise the dangers of deviating away from a solution and question their approach since 1983. Rather than ponder the limitless possibilities of what could have once been, the Turkish Cypriot leadership rather than believing they have won indefinitely the high moral ground need to eradicate certain contradictions in our own approach for peace. The moral ground can easily be lost.

For those sulking in response to the Presidency of Tassos Papadopoulos, they should realise that under a democratic system, he will not always remain in power, and despite the fact that he marshalled support against the UN brokered plan, most of the voters were from middle ground. Provided the current Turkish Cypriot leadership is still in favour of solution that would bring about reunification as opposed to partition, the stance of the Turkish Cypriot Presidency should not be to offer him the opportunity to conceal and justify his deep-seated ill will by abandoning all hope of a solution and promoting separatism.

The acrimonious dispute that forms the long-standing Cyprus question can never quite be expected to be solved in a few months and let us not forget it was a democratic right to say No as well as Yes. But still, thousands have debunked the idea of reunification at an alarming rate due to their unrewarded enthusiasm for an international plan. Perhaps they are right to, since the summer of 2001, Turkish Cypriots in Northern Cyprus remain under economic and political sanctions and despite voting overwhelmingly for reunification are left out in the cold away from the European Union. No doubt, this has led to feelings of powerfulness and a feeling of a lack of influence over the political decisions that involve them, but is this really because of the Greek Cypriots or a souvenir from the isolationist approach of Denktash administration?

Whether we choose to believe it or not, isolation does not stem entirely from the Greek Cypriots, but is a reaction by the world to the idea of a TRNC as a separate entity. Up to 1984, while Northern Cyprus was known as the “Turkish Federated State of Cyprus” using the Republic of Cyprus stamp as before 1974, there were no sanctions in place then. So what happened? This changed in 1984, when Gen. Kenan Evren who after his September 1980 military coup pushed the Turkish Cypriots with encouragement from Rauf Denktash to declare their unilateral independence leading to the formation of the TRNC. The hard truth is the TRNC was not founded by the will of Turkish Cypriots, nobody took to the streets asking for succession, nor did we have much of say in its establishment-it was a decision imposed by Ankara for her own strategic interests.

Ankara knew only too well in 1983-84 that following a US arms embargo on Turkey for its role in 1974 that such a state created by what most of world regards as “displacement, seizure of land and an invasion” could never realistically be internationally recognised. So referenda aside, can we really expect recognition or even the lifting of sanctions if we build on Greek Cypriot lands, refuse them the right to return, import settlers for so long and close our borders for 30 years? Can we really expect the world to agree with “Turkish Cypriot Human Rights” if we deprive others of their rights? Whatever happened to the universality of human rights?

Yes, of course I want an end to Turkish Cypriot isolation, but to trade with the world, we firstly need stability and a respect for international law and human rights, not just our own. While issues such as missing persons can be solved gradually, a property solution and a need to begin integrating our institutions to the Republic is central to the idea of “carrying on business as usual.” Contrary to what politicians promise the North’s electorate, Varosha cannot be opened to tourists from Western Europe who will enjoy its beaches, but meanwhile the same right will be denied to its owners who live a few miles away. Equally Varosha and Achna cannot be keep closed and its owners kept out while we expect a lifting of sanctions.

Some may ask, but why are the Greek Cypriots free to trade and we are not? The Greek Cypriots firstly do not officially define themselves as the ‘Greek Cypriot Republic of Southern Cyprus’ but as the Cyprus government, and in by doing so they show the world that they are not the divisive ones. Regardless of whether in practice the south comes across as a Greek Cypriot state, efforts are routinely made to include all Cypriots and protect Turkish Cypriot properties. For instance Cypriot Maronites, Latins and Armenians children all receive additional financial help from the Cypriot state to study, and have their own schools. State funds are not allocated mono-communally as in the North.

In the North, Maronite villages of Karpasha, Ayia Marina and Asomatos are still closed, with no school provision for Maronite children residents there. The lack of a school is the principle reason these people move to the South and why these minorities choose to live there. These people like the Greek Cypriots of Karpaz are isolated because of the embargoes we place on them, yet we speak only of our own isolation. No doubt Greek Cypriot rejection of the Annan Plan was a missed opportunity, but perhaps it is an opportunity to re-evaluate our own contradictions to prevent a second rejection occurring.

http://www.toplumpostasi.net/index.php/ ... /Ana_sayfa
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Postby kerravon » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:05 pm

miltiades wrote:I COPIED THIS FROM ANOTHER THREAD SPECIFICALY FOR THE AUSTRALIAN Genius

For what purpose? You've given the opinion of what appears to be one Turkish Cypriot. What you should be doing is taking into the account the majority view of Turkish Cypriots which is that they want protection of their human rights, and they know that Turkey will protect them (because Turkey is not racist against them).

You're not remotely trying to solve this problem. The only thing you are trying to do is have absolute GC conquest over the TC with a "trust us, we won't seek revenge for x, y, z, a, b, c (some imagined, some real, dating back centuries) as soon as those bloody Turks leave". You've made no attempt to look at it from the point of view of the TC, because you don't give a damn about their feelings and their fears. And if that's your attitude, it's time for Australia to lead the way and recognize Northern Cyprus.
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Postby kerravon » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:25 pm

Viewpoint wrote:I really don't think it would be acceptable or fair to treat GCs as immigrants

That's up to you obviously. China has restrictions on people moving within China. Sydney is running out of water (dam is 40% full at the moment) due to population growth, and I would understand if Sydney/NSW started having immigration restrictions from other states. BTW, I'm from Queensland myself and I have long showers. :-)

If this figure is low then an upper limit can be fixed to ensure that it is not exploited to turn TCs into a minority in their own northern state.

Well you eventually want to get to the point where no limit is required and people have long forgotten ethnic differences.

There is another way this problem might be solved. America hasn't yet started the war to eradicate Islam from the face of the earth. It's still doing some data gathering in Afghanistan and Iraq to find out whether education or genocide is required. If the TC are Muslims, you're going to be hit by 48:29 in the Qur'an which turns Muslims into religious bigots, and thus up against the Anglophones who are anti-religious-bigotry. There may not be any TC left. Or Turks either.

Read this:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/si ... uslims.htm

The wheels are turning on this problem too. Don't be fooled by Bush saying "Islam is a religion of peace". That's just the strategic thing to do. Now is not the time to open a warfront with the entire Muslim world. There are higher priority things to do, such as disarm enemy nation-states. But at the end of the day, America needs to make sure that another 9/11 is inconceivable because the ideology that provoked such a thing no longer exists. And that probably means wiping Islam off the face of the planet, which may or may not mean genocide against Muslims. Let's see how it plays out.

CALCULATED VIOLENCE will win. War is a science. Those 9/11 attackers made a big mistake. They believed their own propaganda that America was a paper tiger. They don't understand Anglophone culture.
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