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Use NATO

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby kerravon » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:47 pm

Viewpoint wrote:The remaining soldiers would have been symbolic at 650tcs and 950gcs

Modern wars are won in the air by whoeever has the best air-to-air missiles. So long as Turkey has ANY troops in Cyprus, the GC will be totally outgunned by Turkey and feel that Turkey is imposing their will on GC.

which could once trust was established have been abolished all together but that opportunity has now passed and we have stalemate which in many ways is better than reunification where we will be reduced to a minority status left to the mercy of GC administered human right and democracy in our own country.

My understanding is that the TC would have retained their autonomy. As such, nothing would have been imposed on you. The level of GC immigration was going to be under your control, so you wouldn't have had to commit demographic suicide.

We will not put our future solely in the hands of GCs, they have to realize that they have to share political power and the island with us the TC and this they are not willing to do.

Well, the GC don't speak with one voice. A lot of them voted in favour in that referendum. Even though Turkish troops remained. I think if I were GC I would want Turkish troops gone too. I don't mind them being replaced with NATO troops though. But not Turkish.

So we are kidding ourselves when made to measure plans are put forward where TCs are treated as equals these will be rejected by GCs time and time again just like the AP. When the world realizes what many TCs realized that reunification with GCs is impossible based on first hand experience will they finally make the move to recognize us in our current state.

Well, you haven't given my solution a try yet. It may be enough for 51% of GC to accept. Maybe the TC won't like it though, not having the Turkish military around to guarantee security for them.
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Postby observer » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:49 pm

According to Wikipedia:
Where it has been adopted, human rights legislation commonly contains:

+security rights that protect people against crimes such as murder, massacre, torture and rape
+liberty rights that protect freedoms in areas such as belief and religion, association, assembling and movement
+political rights that protect the liberty to participate in politics by expressing themselves, protesting, participating in a republic
+due process rights that protect against abuses of the legal system such as imprisonment without trial, secret trials and excessive punishments
+equality rights that guarantee equal citizenship, equality before the law and nondiscrimination
+welfare rights (also known as economic rights) that require the provision of education and protections against severe poverty and starvation
+group rights that provide protection for groups against ethnic genocide and for the ownership by countries of their national territories and resources.

Since 1974 TCs have had these rights in the North of Cyprus; they were frequently denied in the years immediately before that. I acknowledge that the years have altered the atmosphere, but I would want strong guarantees before handing myself over to GC domination, especially in view of the many comments posted by GCs on this forum.

You will note that among the human rights above, none refer to property rights, which is what much GC comment is about.
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Postby Viewpoint » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:54 pm

We understand the GC fear of the Turkish army and I think the TCs would be flexible on this issue if there departure was spread over a period of time allowing trust to be rebuilt. The Annan plan allowed for this and as you say land troops will not win a war so the 650 remaining soldiers would be very symbolic but this was rejected.
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Postby miltiades » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:23 pm

Kerravon , you are making no sense at all . G/C immigration ???? What back to their villages and their ancestral homes is that called immigration . Demographic suicide ???? What rubbish are you talking about !! Cypriots in Cyprus committing what ??
This is what you posted :
"""My understanding is that the TC would have retained their autonomy. As such, nothing would have been imposed on you. The level of GC immigration was going to be under your control, so you wouldn't have had to commit demographic suicide. """

Look genius , peace will come to Cyprus when all Cypriots address themselves as Cypriots and foreign troops piss off. IN THE MEANTIME PLEASE TAKE A BREAK AND CONSIDER YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT.
You are really suggesting to the 200 thousand displaced Cypriots that should they wish to return to their villages and towns they should have to emigrate ?? A lot of nonsense has been posted on this forum but none so blatantly childish scatology.
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Postby kerravon » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:21 pm

Viewpoint wrote:We understand the GC fear of the Turkish army and I think the TCs would be flexible on this issue if there departure was spread over a period of time allowing trust to be rebuilt. The Annan plan allowed for this and as you say land troops will not win a war so the 650 remaining soldiers would be very symbolic but this was rejected.

No, it's not symbolic. Any Turkish troops at all shows that Turkey is still the military power in Cyprus. Because those troops are backed by aircraft which can easily defeat the GC. It's the same as the US special forces in Afghanistan that defeated the Taliban.

If I were GC, I would allow the Turkish troops to be replaced by a COALITION of non-Turkish NATO forces. You can choose whichever countries you can trust. The US goes to a lot of effort to build coalitions. Because coalitions show that it's not one country imposing its will on another for national self-interest. It is instead an ALLIANCE with an IDEOLOGY, which is defending/promoting that ideology.

E.g. Australia is in Iraq. MANY people think the US is in Iraq to steal oil. But these conspiracy theorists need to also explain what percentage of the oil Australia is getting. And they need to explain that of the 57% of Australia who supported the war, how many did they personally ask to find out whether they were supporting the war to steal oil. The whacky theory collapses of course. Not a shred of evidence.

So you need to do the same thing with the Turkish military. As you can see, GC here have accused the Turks of occupying Cyprus (even though the reality is the TC want them), and of "controlling" TC (even though the reality is that the TC are independent actors and FREE). Having a NATO coalition protecting the TC causes a fundamental shift in thinking.

So, would a NATO coalition be acceptable to you? What countries would you like in the coalition? Do you think the GC would accept them?
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Postby kerravon » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:46 pm

miltiades wrote:Kerravon , you are making no sense at all . G/C immigration ???? What back to their villages and their ancestral homes is that called immigration .

It sure is. The same way as if I go back to my ancestral home in the UK.

Demographic suicide ???? What rubbish are you talking about !! Cypriots in Cyprus committing what ??

TC would be committing demographic suicide if they allowed a flood of GC onto their territory. And you are doing absolutely nothing to allay their concerns. You aren't considering things from their point of view at all. And until you do so, you're not going to get anywhere. Given that GC like to dredge up ancient history to use against the TC, if I were a TC, I wouldn't trust the GC either. And if I were reading the comments from GC here, I'd be mortified.

This is what you posted :
"""My understanding is that the TC would have retained their autonomy. As such, nothing would have been imposed on you. The level of GC immigration was going to be under your control, so you wouldn't have had to commit demographic suicide. """

Look genius , peace will come to Cyprus when all Cypriots address themselves as Cypriots and foreign troops piss off.

No, peace will come when the GC stop trying to invade TC and the TC become an independent country and get admitted into NATO, and you give up your dream of the TC discarding their security blanket so that you can make an attempt to conquer them. The more I hear from you, the more I want to send Australian troops to protect the TC.

IN THE MEANTIME PLEASE TAKE A BREAK AND CONSIDER YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT.
You are really suggesting to the 200 thousand displaced Cypriots that should they wish to return to their villages and towns they should have to emigrate ??

Yep. That's the reality on the ground, and that's what the TC want. You just don't give a damn about TC living in fear. You want to overwhelm them and persecute them. Sorry, it ain't gonna happen.

A lot of nonsense has been posted on this forum but none so blatantly childish scatology.

On the contrary, I'm the only one who actually has a solution for reunification. Not GC conquest of TC, but reunification. You clearly don't want the latter, you're after the former, so forget it. It's time to say hello to Northern Cyprus, and sending Australian troops to protect Northern Cyprus. Have fun being bombed by the RAAF.
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Postby miltiades » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:44 am

Allow me to be rude . You Sir are talking a load of shit.
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Postby THE HIGHLANDER » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:12 am

WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO ME IS YOUR ALL FARTING IN THE WIND, NOT EVEN A MAGICIAN COULD SOLVE THE ISSUES OF BOTH SIDES,IT IS GOING TO TAKE MANY YEARS FOR OLD WOUNDS TO HEAL !!!!!!!
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Postby kerravon » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:04 am

THE HIGHLANDER wrote:WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO ME IS YOUR ALL FARTING IN THE WIND, NOT EVEN A MAGICIAN COULD SOLVE THE ISSUES OF BOTH SIDES,IT IS GOING TO TAKE MANY YEARS FOR OLD WOUNDS TO HEAL !!!!!!!

Yes, you're quite right. Just like the old wounds between France and Germany. But as France and Germany showed, miracles can happen. But it will only START happening if BOTH the GC stop trying to force their will onto the TC AND the TC asks Turkey to leave. That is what my proposal allows for. The GC here don't like it because they want everything and they want it right now. So they end up with absolutely nothing instead, and if non-Cypriots were to read these messages, they'd probably recognize Northern Cyprus as a new country.

In order for the TC to allow large-scale GC immigration, they will have to have confidence that the GC aren't going to discriminate against them, and aren't going to dredge up ancient history to use against them, or in fact, even dredge up recent history such as the recent ethnic cleansing. This will require a fundamental shift in the GC mindset. The GC will need to act more like the Americans do. After America defeated Japan and Germany, it didn't seek retribution. Instead, it did the exact reverse via the Marshall Plan, giving Germans lots of aid so that they could rebuild.

The concept is simple - the best way to defeat an enemy is to convert him into a friend. You do need to defeat your enemy in the first place, but as soon as you knock him over, you don't start kicking him, you instead stretch out your arm and help him to his feet. It is THIS attitude that causes America, a superpower, to have a LONG list of ALLIES. This is very unusual. It is more usual for lesser powers to form an alliance AGAINST a superpower. America's attitude makes all the difference.

Another thing America does is judge people by their CURRENT behaviour, not their PAST bad behaviour.

Another thing America does is recognize that GUILT IS NOT TRANSFERRABLE.

These are things that the GC needs to learn. Here is the rest that the GC needs to adopt just to BEGIN the process of getting the TC to trust the GC and accept being a minority:

I am AGAINST racism.
I am AGAINST sexism.
I am AGAINST religious discrimination.
I am AGAINST nationalism and national bigotry.
I am AGAINST aggregation (e.g. discriminating against people whose surname begins with "E").
I am AGAINST non-humanist behaviour.
I am AGAINST dogma.
I am AGAINST subjugation.
I do not dwell on the past.
I have empathy for strangers.
I protect strangers.
I fiercely protect my friends.
I will be best friends with anyone in the world, regardless of race, religion, sex or nationality.
I RESPECT INDIVIDUALS who VOLUNTARILY donate to COMPLETE STRANGERS (ie different race, different sex, different religion, different nationality - true altruism) using their OWN HARD-EARNED MONEY.
I will FIGHT using my BRAIN subjugation of ANY HUMAN.

So far the GC are all "me, me, me", not giving a damn about the TC's fears.

BTW, the above "doctrine" comes from www.mutazilah.org

Also, I have a question. Are government documents in Cyprus in English rather than Greek/Turk? I don't know if the TC would accept working in Greek, but besides the French, most people are happy to work in English.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:34 am

kerravon wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:We understand the GC fear of the Turkish army and I think the TCs would be flexible on this issue if there departure was spread over a period of time allowing trust to be rebuilt. The Annan plan allowed for this and as you say land troops will not win a war so the 650 remaining soldiers would be very symbolic but this was rejected.

No, it's not symbolic. Any Turkish troops at all shows that Turkey is still the military power in Cyprus. Because those troops are backed by aircraft which can easily defeat the GC. It's the same as the US special forces in Afghanistan that defeated the Taliban.

If I were GC, I would allow the Turkish troops to be replaced by a COALITION of non-Turkish NATO forces. You can choose whichever countries you can trust. The US goes to a lot of effort to build coalitions. Because coalitions show that it's not one country imposing its will on another for national self-interest. It is instead an ALLIANCE with an IDEOLOGY, which is defending/promoting that ideology.

E.g. Australia is in Iraq. MANY people think the US is in Iraq to steal oil. But these conspiracy theorists need to also explain what percentage of the oil Australia is getting. And they need to explain that of the 57% of Australia who supported the war, how many did they personally ask to find out whether they were supporting the war to steal oil. The whacky theory collapses of course. Not a shred of evidence.

So you need to do the same thing with the Turkish military. As you can see, GC here have accused the Turks of occupying Cyprus (even though the reality is the TC want them), and of "controlling" TC (even though the reality is that the TC are independent actors and FREE). Having a NATO coalition protecting the TC causes a fundamental shift in thinking.

So, would a NATO coalition be acceptable to you? What countries would you like in the coalition? Do you think the GC would accept them?


I think under a BBF solution where the 2 communities where we administer ourselves and are able to live in either the north or the south state with political equality I think TCs would be comfortable waving the Turkish Army goodbye for NATO soldiers.
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