Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

There is an ancient Chinese proverb that says: "Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he eats for a lifetime."

This proverb should be reminded to TCs everyday, while they are waiting for the Financial Aid of Europe.

We have been given financial aid all the time in the last 30 years by Turkey. This was seen as a good thing originally but later on “the evils of taking without earning” became apparent in TC society. Productivity plummeted. People became so dependent on the government give-outs that almost half of the society one way or the other depends its living on government. And this coupled with the bad, I should actually emphasize, horrible taxing system in north that government itself became very dependent on Turkey’s aid.

All these coupled with the isolations cause us to loose our main productive and value additive resource in the north, private entrepreneurship, and became completely dependent on the money coming from Turkey to survive.

Now different parties are trying to do the same thing in Cyprus. They are actually trying to replace Turkey with RoC, in a scheme where RoC would give us give-out and we will accept this and became this time totally dependent on RoC. The whole idea of separating direct trade deal from European Financial Aid is actually nothing more than manifestation of this.

RoC keeps on telling us that she wants to increase our living standards and increase our economic level, and proposing us direct aids which will be channeled through RoC and also a crippled mechanism of trade which will have to go through again with the mercy of RoC. Basically they are trying to give us fish again like Turkey did for the last 30 years instead of trying to teach us how to fish so that we as TCs cannot stand on our feet without being economically dependent on any government, be it Turkey, TRNC, or RoC.

TC society should be wary of this approach of government hand-outs and understand that the only way forward is by having a sound private economical sector that can stand on its own feet. That is why we should reject this European Financial Aid as much as we should have refused all the Turkish Financial Aids for the last 30 years. In the long all this does is to kill private sector entrepreneurship among the TC society.

You want to help us. Open the possibilities for trade, tourism. You want to give us money, then do not simply give us money, come and build infrastructure projects that will help us to produce more. You want to help us “Do not simply open RoC hospitals to TCs without proper fees and taxes, charge money for it” so that TCs can learn that nothing in life is free, and everything should be earned.

“Teach us how to fish instead of giving us fish”

[insan]

“Teach us how to fish instead of giving us fish”

Hi turkcyp,

In my opinion, I believe; the issue is not teaching one how to fish instead of giving them the fish... We all know how to fish and when needed giving/taking the fish. The crucial point of the issue here is that "You can neither fish nor take the fish without my permission. I'm the sole ruler of Cyprus. Majority rules."

[magikthrill]

so that TCs can learn that nothing in life is free, and everything should be earned.

here's a start: return property that isn't yours and hence you never earned (this isnt a personal statement but rather a general one)

[turkcyp]

Hi turkcyp,

In my opinion, I believe; the issue is not teaching one how to fish instead of giving them the fish... We all know how to fish and when needed giving/taking the fish. The crucial point of the issue here is that "You can neither fish nor take the fish without my permission. I'm the sole ruler of Cyprus. Majority rules."

The issue I was trying to bring insan is not one of a political situation of Cyprus Problem. It is of a problem of mentality. TC society has been slowly being programmed to be a passive and docile.

This has been managed so far to be done in the last 30 years, now the only thing changing is the main actors. Instead of getting hand-outs from Turkey we will be getting hand-outs from RoC. I do not want that. We as TCs should realize this can only result in our demise, with no productive instincts left inside us.

So why is this topic in the “Cyprus Problem” forum. It is here because, it has huge implications to the way we should solve “Cyprus Problem” We can see this the way EU and RoC is trying to help us in the context of solution. We do not want financial aid. We want opportunities to trade and compete. We do not need rose garden to walk in, we need a rode with rocks.

Even Annan Plan was doing this to certain degree. As far as I remember Annan Plan was proposing more economical aid from federal government to north in relation to the taxes collected from north. And I remember GCs found this unacceptable.

I find it unacceptable as well. We do not want anything more than we earn. In any solution if we give 1% of taxes to federal government then we should get only %1 of the aid from federal government. All the other mechanism will only cause the docile mentality among the TCs to flourish even more. “Let the government give so we can live” mentality.

You know the famous saying of Nasreddin Hoca “Parayi veren dudugu calar”. This is exactly what will solidify in Cyprus if we do not establish our solution parameter right.

I say we do not need “Economical Aid”. Any “Economical Aid” to be given should be given as a “debt” with proper interest payments, and should be closely monitored by the donor so that it can be spent on proper infrastructure projects. OR I say do not give money at all, just come and build the damn “infrastructure project” and we will pay you back later on.

Take care,

[turkcyp]

here's a start: return property that isn't yours and hence you never earned (this isnt a personal statement but rather a general one)

Actually I have written a different post first, but then deleted it, because I do not want to turn this topic to another "stolen property" debate.

So all I will say is "You are entitled to have your own opinion but I respectfully disagree." The reasons why, I respectfully disagree has been explained in so many other "property topics" in this forum, so you can find them there, and continue your vicious cycle there.

Take care magikthrill,

[insan]

The issue I was trying to bring insan is not one of a political situation of Cyprus Problem. It is of a problem of mentality. TC society has been slowly being programmed to be a passive and docile.

I think this is an inevitable consequence of the situation we have been in in last 30 years, besides; the lack of capability to resolve the problems.

This has been managed so far to be done in the last 30 years, now the only thing changing is the main actors. Instead of getting hand-outs from Turkey we will be getting hand-outs from RoC. I do not want that. We as TCs should realize this can only result in our demise, with no productive instincts left inside us.

Turkey had to give the hand-outs and TCs had to take it as long as Turkey and TCs couldn't manage to convince international community that the embargos were unfair and wouldn't help to solve the cyprus problem. Do you think that embargo being imposed upon TCs is fair or helped to resolve Cyprus problem.

So why is this topic in the “Cyprus Problem” forum. It is here because, it has huge implications to the way we should solve “Cyprus Problem” We can see this the way EU and RoC is trying to help us in the context of solution. We do not want financial aid. We want opportunities to trade and compete. We do not need rose garden to walk in, we need a rode with rocks.

Funding TC constituent state until its economy and infastructure being equated with the economic strength and infrastructure of South is a must for the stability of United Cyprus and competitive strength between two communities. Don't worry about the road with rocks you need. There will be road with rocks even after the TC economy and infrastructure being equated with the Souths. Even I bet you'll get bored struggling towards the rocks and thornbushes on your road to a better life.

Even Annan Plan was doing this to certain degree. As far as I remember Annan Plan was proposing more economical aid from federal government to north in relation to the taxes collected from north. And I remember GCs found this unacceptable.

True. This is a must until the economic strengths and infrastructural structure of both sides equated.

I find it unacceptable as well. We do not want anything more than we earn. In any solution if we give 1% of taxes to federal government then we should get only %1 of the aid from federal government. All the other mechanism will only cause the docile mentality among the TCs to flourish even more. “Let the government give so we can live” mentality.

After the economical strengths and infrastructural structure of both sides equated noone will give you more than what you deserved.

You know the famous saying of Nasreddin Hoca “Parayi veren dudugu calar”. This is exactly what will solidify in Cyprus if we do not establish our solution parameter right.

So what should be our solution parameter, trukcyp?

I say we do not need “Economical Aid”. Any “Economical Aid” to be given should be given as a “debt” with proper interest payments, and should be closely monitored by the donor so that it can be spent on proper infrastructure projects. OR I say do not give money at all, just come and build the damn “infrastructure project” and we will pay you back later on.

Hmm... Why should only the TCs pay the price of the last 40 years? All concerned parties have responsibilities for the situation created in the last 40 years. Now you say, it doesn't matter; TCs as the supermen of the world could undertake the damage others caused in the last 40 years. Why?

[magikthrill]

thats fine turkcyp.

stolen property is my moms house inhabited by settlers and stolen property is the big business operating on brothers' family land. however you can use the terms stolen property in quotations if it makes you feel less inhumane.

[turkcyp]

Main difference between you and me Insan is that you see the aids as a result of our unproductivity and our economic problem but I tend to see it as one of the main causes of our economic problems.

I am not saying that there the only cause of the problem, and certainly unfair isolations is another reason of it. I do not think that embargos were fair, but at the same time I do not also think that all the Turkish aid were necessary even with the existence of embargos. You tend to blame embargos as our only cause of problem, and no doubt they are the biggest reason, but they are not the only reason.

Even with the existence of embargos, if there were less of Turkish Economic Aid, then I claim that we would have worked even harder to find a way out of the economical abyss and eventually succeed with minimum Turkish Aid, and not killing the entrepreneurship spirit inside the society. You can call me a fetish with “self-blame” and “self-help” brand of conservatism, and but I always believe that we should poke the “cuvaldiz” onto us first. Whenever we talk about isolations as being our sole problem, without any other self inflicted problems on our own, we more and more sound like blacks in USA blaming racism for all of their misfortunes.

There is no doubt that racism even today exist in USA even though at a lower degree. But blaming racism as the sole cause of their misfortunes is the most prominent and weakest attitudes of blacks, which in turn cause the raise of stupid programs like “affirmative action” that makes them even more reliant on the hand-outs distributed by whites. Now from this paragraph replace blacks with TCs, racism with isolations, and whites with GCs and/or Turkey then you would understand what I am trying to say.

Even at the time of solution, you are saying that we should be extra funded till we get even handed in economic terms with GCs. This is a very big misbelief I think. Competition and hard times is what makes people and/or societies adapt and evolve and strengthen. The same faulted economic ideology of protectionism is used by any industry that faces foreign competition. Now in the Cyprus problem we are using the same ideology of protectionism as a society.

I have never said that TCs are superman. But I said that getting aids will prevent us from getting our full potential, and be reliant on outside sources all the time. You have asked for a solution parameter. This is not an idea of solution parameter, but it certainly can be used as a solution parameter.

And applying this into the context of solution is the fact that, TC state or society should not get more than it contributes to federal government. We should learn how to live within our means, we should learn that we can’t spend without producing it. At the same time federal government should not be that intrusive into state’s or societies economical management issues. She should let the states/societies to stand on its own economically without getting substantial help from federal government.

You are talking about 40 years of misfortune. We also have a fault in these 40 years of misfortune and therefore we should be required to pay for our misdeeds.

[brother]

We really need to get out of that cycle we seem to be going around in guys, and stick to the topic at hand.

[insan]

Main difference between you and me Insan is that you see the aids as a result of our unproductivity and our economic problem but I tend to see it as one of the main causes of our economic problems.

I am not saying that there the only cause of the problem, and certainly unfair isolations is another reason of it. I do not think that embargos were fair, but at the same time I do not also think that all the Turkish aid were necessary even with the existence of embargos. You tend to blame embargos as our only cause of problem, and no doubt they are the biggest reason, but they are not the only reason.

People all around the world, depends upon their leading and ruling elites. If their ruling and leading elites are selfish and incapable to guide its people in right direction; its doomed to fail in all areas of life. I stated this in my previous post.

However, getting financial aids and funds in order to create equal circumstances for TCs and stability of United Cyprus is a different issue and it's a must. The cost of the damage caused to the North of Cyprus by all concerned parties is huge.

You are talking about 40 years of misfortune. We also have a fault in these 40 years of misfortune and therefore we should be required to pay for our misdeeds.

That's what I'm saying, too; turkcyp. And also this is what the Annan Plan envisages also.