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Settlers - How can it be solved?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby insan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Lets look at the facts Turkcyp.


Let's look at the facts mikkie.

In 1974, the vast majority of TC's lived in the south, the north was almost exclusively populated by GC's.


True. This is a fact.


Turkey invaded.


As your history text books, you skipped soooo many facts that took place before Turkey intervened.

What are they?

1- in 1967-74 period Clerides and Denktash had agreed upon almost all disputes except local autonomy. Makarios kept insisting on "majority rule". Read Dektash-Clerides letters at cyprus-conflict.com

2- After the coup came into power in Greece A more militant political organization appeared that claimed to be above politics - the ESEA, Eniaios Syndesmos Enotikou Agonos (Unified Committee of the Enosist Struggle). It was the political front of EOKA B. Three new enosist newspapers - the Ethniki, Messivrini, and Patris - were established. It was common knowledge that these newspapers, as well as EOKA B and ESEA, were financed by the Greek government and by some of its wealthy supporters. Captured documents found in the hands of EOKA B offered ample evidence to prove this allegation.

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/disloyal ... rkides.htm

From 1967-until 1974 15th of July, while Makarios was insisting on majority rule in order to degrade TCs into a minority status; Enosists exerting hard to achieve their goal: Enosis

As we all know, Enosists eventually managed to overthrow Makarios in order to achieve Enosis.


Under the circumstances of 1963-74, neither TCs nor Tukey trusted GC nad Greek leaderships. With all of their actions toward majority rule and Enosis; they lost all their credibilities and trust in hearts and minds of TCs and Turkey. TCs and Turkey waited sooo long the GC and Greek leadership for give up the stupid ideas Enosis and majority rule but they didn't give up...

What happened after that? The vast majority of GC's fled south to get away from your very friendly Turkish soldiers (raping and pillaging as they were going along).


Hamesecken and pillage is true but raping is alleged. Many TCs also fled to North during 20th of July and 16th of August because of the security reasons.

The majority of TC's stayed south.


They were the wifes, grannies, handicapped and little kids of TC fighters. They had to stay where they were inhabiting until their men return and take them. Apparently your history text books distorted the realities about them.

These TC's when then FORCED to move north by the Turks by threatening the RoC with further action and concluding in an 'exchange of populations agreement' which was not an agreement at all but a demand from the Turks.


Noone forced TCs to move North. They have alreadybeen looking for a safe place since 1963.

I remember seeing pictures of TC's being hearded onto trucks by the UN crying and screaming because they didn't want to leave their homes.


Hahahaha. One more distortion of historical facts. They were crying with the hapiness of rejoining their loved ones waiting them in the North of the Island.


This IS ethnic cleansing turkcyp and there is absolutely NO WAY this can be justified because this was forced on the TC's and GC's mainly by the actions of Turkey. The problem in Cyprus could have been solved if TUrkey fullfilled her obligations as a guarantor power and re-established constitutional order as per 1960.


First of all you should get your facts straight.
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Postby boulio » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:30 pm

They were the wifes, grannies, handicapped and little kids of TC fighters


i thought t/c were defenless and being slautered according to many t/c accounts,or were the fighters in the sence of partition fighters?
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Postby turkcyp » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:31 pm

insan wrote:
In 1974, the vast majority of TC's lived in the south, the north was almost exclusively populated by GC's.


True. This is a fact.
.


Just want to correct this. This is not true. Close to 60% of TC society lived under todays borders in 1974 as well.
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Postby insan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:42 pm

turkcyp wrote:
insan wrote:
In 1974, the vast majority of TC's lived in the south, the north was almost exclusively populated by GC's.


True. This is a fact.
.


Just want to correct this. This is not true. Close to 60% of TC society lived under todays borders in 1974 as well.


You mean after 25.000 TCs fled to enclaves or as original inhabitants?
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Postby insan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:45 pm

boulio wrote:They were the wifes, grannies, handicapped and little kids of TC fighters


i thought t/c were defenless and being slautered according to many t/c accounts,or were the fighters in the sence of partition fighters?



All adult men; able to fight and defend his family, village and community were fighting against Enosists and "majority rule" oppressors. They were defenceless when compared to GCs.
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Postby magikthrill » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:47 pm

turkcyp wrote:
As I have said, the only way we can break the cycle is “self-criticism” and no excuses. I am ready to accept all my fault without any excuse, (as I did later on the topic about expulsion of GCs). Are you ready to do the same? If not, then I will not do it either. ;)



too late. you already said you would before i would! :lol:

i agree with you turkcyp and my apologies
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Postby boulio » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:49 pm

All adult men; able to fight and defend his family, village and community were fighting against Enosists and "majority rule" oppressors. They were defenceless when compared to GCs.

but if the wives grandmothers and kids are in the south which would constitut there family,village and community what are they doing fighting in the north?shouldn't they be in the south defending all of these things you say or were they preparing the ground for the turkish "peace operation"?
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Postby insan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:03 pm

boulio wrote:All adult men; able to fight and defend his family, village and community were fighting against Enosists and "majority rule" oppressors. They were defenceless when compared to GCs.

but if the wives grandmothers and kids are in the south which would constitut there family,village and community what are they doing fighting in the north?shouldn't they be in the south defending all of these things you say or were they preparing the ground for the turkish "peace operation"?


When the Turkish intervention was launched on 20th of July, most of the Turkish fighters took their positions in different areas of Cyprus and changed their positions according to the course of the events. Most of the TC fighters took up a position in TC enclaves. After the second phase of the intervention it was impossible for them to return South and bring their families to North. Thus, they were waiting them in North while the relevant parties negotiating the issue in Vienna.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:05 pm

Turkcyp,

there are 3 reasons of using quoted arguments.
One is to oppose it.
Another is to support it.
A third is to point it irrelevant.

You are clever enough to know which of 3 applied to my previous post.

A little bit ethics please,


Haaa???

On the issue of who should pay for settlers new housing if they are forced out, I simply disagree with you. There is no such thing as free lunch. The personally should be found liable for it.


Like I said I am doing the advocate of the devil. What you say actually is correct, but there are many "buts".
Will the settlers vote at the referendum? If yes then your proposal is enough to destroy the outcome of the genuine will of the native Cypriots.
We are not in the US my friend. We are all Anatolians.Your mother beleived in a free lunch depositing her money at a Bank for 15% interest, the vast majority of the GCs beleived in a free lunch and lost all their savings at the Cyprus Stock exchange , the settlers also beleived in a free lunch....

And I repeat what will happen if the settler says "they told me to come here and get this house for free and this land for free, I am not getting out". Will we tell him he is lying? Will we put him in scholl to learn there is no such thing as free lunch?

But blaming everything on Turkey is a very simplistic approach employed by every GC since the beginning.


Who do you blaim Turkcyp?I mean why this "Turkey is innocent" advocating? We are not afraid to blame neither Turkey nor Greece for their wrong doings in Cyprus. That does not mean we hate them.They did wrong they did wrong.Fullstop. Even ECHR verified the fact that the only one responsible of everything that happens in the occupied area is Turkey. And lets assume for a moment that Turkey did not encourage the settlers.What did she do to stop them then?

Do I have to remind you of Erdogans answer to a reporter? He was asked to comment on the possibility that all the TCs would move back to the RoC after it joins the EU. He said.

The Greeks (meaning the GCS) can have as many Turks (meaning TCs) as they like. We can send them more if they want!

***************************************************

Ayios Amvrosios wrote: I would pay to "compensate" the occupiers if I was allowed to return.


Just a general comment here not directly addressed to AA.. There are many people who are sentimentally attached to their properties.You must expect that after a solution, and the only way to deal with it is let those people get back and return to their properties. The majority in my opinion would be happy to exchange equal for equal. Noone however will accept to lose his properties or get meaningless bonds.
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Postby turkcyp » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:09 pm

turkcyp wrote:
insan wrote:
In 1974, the vast majority of TC's lived in the south, the north was almost exclusively populated by GC's.


True. This is a fact.
.


Just want to correct this. This is not true. Close to 60% of TC society lived under todays borders in 1974 as well.


I correct myself here...

I am sorry, I was wrong. The amount of TC society trapped in south after Aug 1974 was around 54%. So you guys were right, I was wrong majority of TC lived in south, by 54-46%.

I hope I am not corrected before I correct myself. ;)

MicAtCyp wrote:Who do you blaim Turkcyp?I mean why this "Turkey is innocent" advocating? We are not afraid to blame neither Turkey nor Greece for their wrong doings in Cyprus. That does not mean we hate them.They did wrong they did wrong.Fullstop. Even ECHR verified the fact that the only one responsible of everything that happens in the occupied area is Turkey. And lets assume for a moment that Turkey did not encourage the settlers.What did she do to stop them then?


Because MicAtCyp,

As I have said it earlier. People tend to blame outsiders more than themselves. This happens in every society. TCs blame GCs for whatever happened to them and never stop and criticize what they have don wrong to prevent bad outcome. And at the same manner GCs blame TCs and Turkey for everything without stopping and criticizing themselves.

And when everybody does this. All we do is keep on finding excuses for our wrong doings. When you come and tell me “Turkey is the only one to blame”, this immediately relives you from guilt of misconduct. The same is true for TCs do not get me wrong.

As I have said what we should be doing is to criticize ourselves first and then look outside, and not try to find excuses for our misconduct. We should let those excuses come from the other party, because if we do that then those excuses mean forgiveness and reconciliation. Otherwise if we keep on finding excuses for our own misconduct and keep on shifting the blame completely to outside, then all the other side can do is to engage in the same, so cycle keeps on repeating itself.

It is basic human psychology. When you criticize yourself, and take responsibility for some part of the blame, you become more reconciliatory. If you only criticize outside and shift blame always away from yourself, denying any responsibility, then this makes the other party more defensive, and he does the same. Nobody wants to be criticized by outside especially in an environment where the critic is the opposing side.

If everybody as I have said criticize itself and try to clean his mess and his faults and leave the excuse finding to opposite party then we can really move to reconciliation from confrontation.
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