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Once Upon a Time there was an island called Cyprus...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:38 pm

Nikitas wrote:Zan,

I will not get into a tussle over this. It is meant as additinal background on Enosis for people who are not privy to GC thinking. Most GCs had no direct knowledge of Greece. A person close to me fought the British as an EOKA member. He had not visited Greece until after 1974 when he took his children to university there. And he did not like what he found.

As for the anticimmunist fervor of the mainland officers who commanded the national guard, the importance will become apparent as Bir develops his side and reaches the 60s.

There is more to this thing than the abstract notion of Enosis.


There is nothing abstract about it...You are giving me examples of an apolitical every day Costas and I am telling you what went on with the people with real power. Your leader took an oath and I hope you are not saying that e took his oaths lightly because after what he did to the Zurich agreement I would be inclined to believe you. :wink: If I didn't know what was coming next in this story then I would not be able to make sense of any of this but alas I do know and it's not a pretty story.

You have taken this line before in which you ignore where the actions came from and plead ignorance for the common man. What you say might be right but has no bearing on the where the decisions came from.
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:52 pm

The everyday man on the street aspired to Enosis as an ideal, is what is written. He had no direct knowledge of Greece. People risked their lives and many died for this ideal. Most of those hanged by the British had never been to Greece, or met a mainland Greek. That is the gist of it. And as the story unfolds this fact become relevant and explains a lot of what happened later. We will get there, do not be impatient.
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Postby zan » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:59 pm

Nikitas wrote:The everyday man on the street aspired to Enosis as an ideal, is what is written. He had no direct knowledge of Greece. People risked their lives and many died for this ideal. Most of those hanged by the British had never been to Greece, or met a mainland Greek. That is the gist of it. And as the story unfolds this fact become relevant and explains a lot of what happened later. We will get there, do not be impatient.


No problem but lets concentrate on the generals and leave the foot soldiers stories to the day to day activities.


If this thread is just going to be a quick voiceover of what happened and we move on from issues that are not settled then we can read any book from anywhere and get the same result. This is the problem with this tread or any other attempt to define what happened. If we are going to ignore key facts about the situation, as the oath that Makarios took, in order to down play the importance of such an event then the resulting decisions will be distorted.
Last edited by zan on Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:04 pm

The historical perspective is important, agreed. Personally I think that the class aspect has not been sufficiently analysed. The EOKA foot soldiers were peasant boys, rural class. The professionals and middle class was missing in this sgtruggle, and undertandably so, they were civil servants mostly and the British were their employers. We often overlook this, and forget how this factor influenced later developments.
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:23 pm

Nikitas wrote:The historical perspective is important, agreed. Personally I think that the class aspect has not been sufficiently analysed. The EOKA foot soldiers were peasant boys, rural class. The professionals and middle class was missing in this sgtruggle, and undertandably so, they were civil servants mostly and the British were their employers. We often overlook this, and forget how this factor influenced later developments.



I can see where this thread is leading. To utter chaos.

BK best left to finish his project before any comments, otherwise it will get stuck in a quagmire.
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Postby Eric dayi » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:36 pm

Nikitas wrote:To put this Enosis thing in some perspective.

It was an ideal, to unite with a Greece which existed in GCs minds in an idealised form. Most people had not been to Greece, had not met a Greek from Greece and apart from movies and some magazines had no regular contact with Greece.


LIAR!

As for Greece itself in 1954, it was still recovering from the German occupation of 1940-1945 and the civil war from 1946-49. Together both of these conflicts had claimed about one million lives and left Greece with a fiercely anti cimmunist regime. THis anticommunism of the Greeks was to cause much grief later on when mainland Greek army officers staffed the Cypriot national guard. These guys could not fathom that Cyprus had not had the experience of the Greek civil war between pro western and communist forces. They misconstrued Cypriot confusion at their rantings as apathy in the face of the national threat of communism. They took it on themselves to purify the Cypriot soul and to contain the non existent communist threat. This tied in well with the phantoms of another major player, the Americans.

One other factor in this is that the Cypriot struggle for Enosis, which Bir will get to in time, was for Greece a relatively risk free affair. If the Cypriots won and Cyprus united with Greece it would be a gain. If the Cypriots lost and Cyprus remained British it would not be a loss. Greece encouraged the Enosis struggle but it did not actively help it beyond sending some surplus small arms. That lukewarm approach should have rang some alarm bells in Cypriot heads. But Enosis was an ideal and ideals are emotional things, not amenable to rational challenges.

I will let Bir bring us up to date before I add more GC perspectives.


Liar!

Jesus Christ, will you Greeks and GCs ever learn to tell the truth and stop telling lies?
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Postby Eric dayi » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:41 pm

Birkibrisli wrote:
CopperLine wrote:Birkibrisli,
I loved you 'Cyprus diary' so I'm not sure whether you want interruptions or questions (especially after just one post !) If you, don't ignore this question; otherwise, when you say on the first line,

This island was home mainly to two ethnically distinct communities.


is this a conclusion or a premise ? To my way of thinking, communities are formed historically, they do not present themselves ready-formed and distinct. If that is the case then what interest me is how people differentiated themselves to such an extent that we can identify clearly 'distinct' communities. (Of course just because communites are distinct doesn't necessarily mean that they are fated to conflict). As I write this, it occurs to me that there may be a difference between whether and how outside people see distinct communities (for example, British colonial administrators) as opposed to the internal community/ies themselves who might not see or experience the same distinction.


CopperLine,
I think this will work best if people jump in whenever they feel the need to make a comment or ask a question. Or challenge me on something or other. The idea is to try to have an objective look at how we got to the mess we are in,without the emotional and propaganda based accusations and counter-accusations...

I mentioned the two main communities as they were the founding partners in the 1960 Agreements. I agree that communities are formed historically,and perhaps not recognised or named by the communities themselves. During Ottoman times,for example,there would have been no mention of anyone being "Turkish" Cypriot. The Ottomans classifed their subjects as MUslims and Non-Muslims...So it would be interesting if someone jumps in here and tells us when and how the notion of "Turkishness" begun in Cyprus.


If you are telling the truth Bir and there were Muslims and Non-Muslims in the Ottoman era then maybe you can tell us how the notion of "Greekness" begun in Cyprus?
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:43 pm

Eric, I have already told you when "Greekness" begun in Cyprus. But as you know I don't mind repeating the truth every time you are trying to deny it. So here we go:

Cyprus has been a Hellenic island for 3500 years, about as long as any other Greek island and just a few centuries later than the Greek mainland. Cyprus was Hellenic long before the Greek Alphabet was discovered and before the Greek civilization became the great civilization everybody knows today. Cyprus was an integral part of Hellinism since then. One of 12 Gods of Olympus was Cypriot. Cypriots spoke the earliest known dialect of Greek, Mycenaean Greek, which later became the Arcadocypriot dialect of Greek.

Cyprus was Hellenic so long ago, that at that time the concept of a country did not exist. There was no such thing as a "Greek country" back then for Cyprus to belong to. What we had where Hellenic city kingdoms, and Cyprus had several of them. However Cyprus did belong for many centuries to the Hellenic Byzantine Empire and the people of this island, like the rest of the Hellenic world, became Greek Orthodox Christians and abandoned the Olympus Gods.

People on this island dear Dayi speak Greek and follow the Greek religion (either the Olympus Gods or later Orthodox Christianity) and culture, uninterrupted for 3500 years.

So if you want to know when the "notion of Greekness begun in Cyprus" the answer is 3500 years ago.

I believe that our examination of History should start with the Ottoman rule of Cyprus. That is when Cyprus, like most other Hellenic territories and islands, fall under the Ottoman rule. It was in this period that a Muslim (later called TC) minority was created, it was during this time that this Muslim minority was divided and given privilages over the rest of Cypriots, and it was at this time when Cypriots along with the other Greeks first attempted to rid of themselves of their Ottoman rulers and create an independent Greek state.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.


Cypriots had right to fight for their freedom just like Cretans, Athenians, Peloponisians and every other Greek under the Turkish rule.

Cyprus was no different from those other Greek parts. Cyprus was not the only Greek territory where a Muslim minority had been formed, and it was not the only one where the Turks ruled against our will. In fact the Turks where ruling Athens, the Greek mainland and most other Greek islands for longer than what they ruled Cyprus. Those that claim that Cyprus had no right to be part of the newly formed Greek state should also claim that for the same reasons no Greek state should have been created.

While our revolts where oppressed by the Turks this didn't mean we should have given up our struggle for freedom, and we didn't. We continued to demand our rights and freedom when the British took over.

Even the UN resolution about Decolonization confirms that not only people had the right to rid themselves of the colonialists, but also that "integration into an independent State" was a legitimate option for the people being decolonized if this was their democratic choice.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

The British denied to us our rights and we were forced to fight a war against them.

The TC minority in Cyprus was used by the British as the means to deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination and their rights so they could maintain their control over our island.

Personally I forgive those Turkish Cypriots that fought on the side of the British because I understand their fears. Although liberation and integration to the Greek state was with no doubt our right, at the same time I accept that the TC minority had valid objections to such development. At the same time I expect from TCs to recognize our right to finally get rid of the foreign rulers and be part of a Greek state like all the other Greek territories and islands.

However taking advantage of the TC fears to stop Cyprus from joining the rest of Greece was not the only thing the British did. They subsequently exploited the TC greed, by promising to them and later giving to them with the 1960 "agreements" that where forced on the Cypriot people, significant gains on the loss of all other Cypriots. In this way they ensured that there would never be a united Cypriot people, but instead two conflicting sides, one of which would be loyal to them and Turkey and serve their interests, instead of the interests of Cyprus as a whole.

Independence, the other one of the legitimate options for decolonization, was something proposed by Makarios as a compromise. Personally I believe that was a good promise since it would give to the Cypriot people their freedom and self determination without integrating Cyprus into the Greek state which TCs believed would be harmful for them. However what Makarios proposed was a true independence, that would create in Cyprus a normal democratic country, not something that would be created by foreigners to serve their own interests and then imposed on the Cypriot people.
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Postby Jerry » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:33 pm

Oh bollocks! The hatemongers and propaganda pricks have entered the fray. Is it not possible to observe a rational discussion here wthout the bitching and blaming. These issues have been aired before, they can be countered by arguments from the other side. If you don't have anything useful to contribute shut up and keep out.
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:10 pm

Jerry wrote:Oh bollocks! The hatemongers and propaganda pricks have entered the fray. Is it not possible to observe a rational discussion here wthout the bitching and blaming. These issues have been aired before, they can be countered by arguments from the other side. If you don't have anything useful to contribute shut up and keep out.



If you ned to turn the gramaphone off you need to pull his plug out. :lol: :lol:
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